Fermaid-O YAN ppm?

[NeverDie]

I'm having trouble locating a consistent answer to what N should be in the following statement: "1 gram of Fermaid-O provides N ppm YAN per liter."

One source says N would be 50 ppm. Another says 30 ppm. Yet another says 10 ppm.

What is the correct answer?

 

[NeverDie]

Well, according to https://www.winebusiness.com/tools/?go=winemaking.calc&cid=2114, N is none of the above but rather N = 40.

 

[Maylar]

What does Scott Labs say?

 

[FunkyMunk]

http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showth...mmon-practice-is-over-feeding-our-little-ones!

Maybe you've seen that thread, if not it's worth a read, the answer may be somewhere in there but it's a relevant discussion regardless.

 

[NeverDie]

What does Scott Labs say?

1 gram Fermaid-O in one liter yields 40ppm YAN.
Proof:
On page 37 of the 2018 Scott Labs Fermentation handbook: 10mgN/L results from dosing 25 grams of Fermaid-O in 1hL.
QED

 

[NeverDie]

http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showth...mmon-practice-is-over-feeding-our-little-ones!

Maybe you've seen that thread, if not it's worth a read, the answer may be somewhere in there but it's a relevant discussion regardless.

Thanks! Your link includes a link to: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11pW-dC91OupCYKX-zld73ckg9ximXwxbmpLFOqv6JEk/edit
which has some useful tips on how to calculate the proper amount of Fermaid-O use.

It turns out quite a lot of Fermaid-O is needed to make a mead!

 

[Maylar]

It turns out quite a lot of Fermaid-O is needed to make a mead!

Here's a tip - Fermaid-O is a PITA to work with because it clumps into hard to scoop cake. When you do scoop it out and have your measured amount handy, it's another PITA to get it to dissolve.

This has become one of the most valuable tools in my brew room:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DJBY1L...EW DESIGN - Dishwasher Safe by Cooler Kitchen

Nutrients, pectic enzyme, Campden tablets - all get crushed into fine powder that dissolves so much better. This one is very high quality and I love it.

 

[FunkyMunk]

I don't feel like I'm using a ton of Fermaid O. My last traditional (3 gal.) used like 3 grams per feeding, using TOSNA. (Is that a lot? I jumped right in to TOSNA when I started mead making so have no experience with other nutes.) I have no idea what that equates to in YAN, however.

I dump the Fermaid O straight into an airtight plastic jar (one of those fancy gelato tubs) immediately after opening the bag it comes in, and store it in that. Do the same with DME, brewing salts and sugars, etc. Keeps moisture out, no more clumping, WAY easier to measure and deal with in general. I was using a mortar and pestle but the stuff would just stick to it and not really break up well.

 

[Maylar]

The Fermaid-O I have came in a tub. It still clumps. Maybe next one I'll put a desiccant pack in the tub.
3 grams per add for 3 gal at 1.100 is about right.

 

[NeverDie]

The Fermaid-O I have came in a tub. It still clumps. Maybe next one I'll put a desiccant pack in the tub.
3 grams per add for 3 gal at 1.100 is about right.

Wait. After four feedings, wouldn't 12 grams of Fermaid-O in 3 gallons be approx 40 ppm YAN? That's far short of the 250-300ppm YAN that's supposedly required, isn't it? https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/1256/NDzym05_MasterMead.pdf

 

[RPh_Guy]

Wait. After four feedings, wouldn't 12 grams of Fermaid-O in 3 gallons be approx 40 ppm YAN? That's far short of the 250-300ppm YAN that's supposedly required, isn't it? https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/1256/NDzym05_MasterMead.pdf

The document you're referencing is almost 14 years old. Back then you were expected to age mead for years to get rid of all the off-flavors.


I store my Fermaid O in a Ziploc bag so there's almost no air contact. I haven't experienced clumping.

 

[NeverDie]

The document you're referencing is almost 14 years old. Back then you were expected to age mead for years to get rid of all the off-flavors.

Is TOSNA 3.0 radically different from tosna 2.0? I couldn't find the formulas used by Tosna 3.0, but I did find it for TOSNA 2.0. Here is what the TOSNA 2.0 formula is:

Here is the calculation to determine the total amount of Fermaid-O to use:

Initial Sugar (g/L) x N requirement factor x batch size (gals) / 50 (ppm) = Total Fermaid-O (grams)


Initial Sugar (g/L)

Brix x 10 = Sugar (g/L)
*1° Brix ≈ 10 g/L sugar



Nitrogen(N) Requirement Factor

For Low N requiring strains, Sugar (g/L) x 0.75 = YAN requirement

For Medium N requiring strains, Sugar (g/L) x 0.90 = YAN requirement

For High N requiring strains, Sugar (g/L) x 1.25 = YAN requirement

*Sugar (g/L) = Brix x 10

*Factors sourced from Scott Labs fermentation handbook 2016

Common yeasts w/ Low N needs, 71B, DV10 , D47, EC1118

Common yeasts w/ Medium N needs, D21, D254, D80, V1116

Common yeasts w/ High Nitrogen needs, CY3079, RC212

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...right.com/info.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


Let's work an example for RC212 given OG 1.100:

Brix is 23.77.

So, YAN requirement is 23.77 x 10 x 1.25 = 297.125 YAN.

Right?

Now, 1 gram Fermaid-O in 1 liter of water is 40ppm YAN.

So, 297.125/40= 7.43 grams of Fermaid-O in 1 liter of water is required to meet the YAN requirement for RC212.

But, this is a much higher amount than what the TOSNA 3.0 calculator calls for.

So, where is my error?

 

[FunkyMunk]

From that white paper linked to earlier: "Scott Labs states that while Fermaid O contains much less nitrogen, that due to its particular source, yeast can assimilate it much more efficiently, making the nitrogen content of Fermaid O the equivalent of 3-4 times the content of other sources." I suspect that's part of the answer.

 

[NeverDie]

From that white paper linked to earlier: "Scott Labs states that while Fermaid O contains much less nitrogen, that due to its particular source, yeast can assimilate it much more efficiently, making the nitrogen content of Fermaid O the equivalent of 3-4 times the content of other sources." I suspect that's part of the answer.

There seems to be a lot of controversy surrounding that: http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showth...mmon-practice-is-over-feeding-our-little-ones!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I believe the calculations are the same for 2.0 & 3.0

 

[NeverDie]

Thanks! I see my error now.

 

[NeverDie]

Well, whatever the reason, whether it's that the Scott Labs 40ppm N per liter per gram of Fermaid-O is too low, or whether TOSNA is a key for somehow unlocking much greater efficiency, it appears that TOSNA gives a more than 7x reduction in Fermaid-O over what I'd get from the "old" ways of calculating yeast nitrogen requirements and the 40ppm assumption.

I now have a bake-off of two M5 test batches going, one using the TOSNA calculator results and one with the "old" assumptions, but otherwise staggered as per TOSNA.

 

[Maylar]

Are you using the TOSNA 2 or 3 version? 3.0 was recently released and it's on the Mead Made Right web site. It's creator (Sergio?) has already done the work to dial all that in. Why are you trying to reinvent his wheel?

 

[NeverDie]

Are you using the TOSNA 2 or 3 version? 3.0 was recently released and it's on the Mead Made Right web site. It's creator (Sergio?) has already done the work to dial all that in. Why are you trying to reinvent his wheel?

TOSNA 2 and TOSNA 3 appear to use the same formulas. Here's the formula from TOSNA 3:

Here is the formula for calculating your own customized nutrient regimen for any batch you make using Fermaid-O:

((((Brix x 10) * N requirement factor for your yeast) / 50) * Batch size in gallons) = Total grams of Fermaid-O needed

*Nitrogen requirement factors are: Low = 0.75, Medium = 0.90, High = 1.25
​

I just wanted to understand how TOSNA compared to previous nitrogen requirements, aside from the obvious staggering of the nutrients.

 

[NeverDie]

I forgot to account for the YAN in GoFerm, which can be significant relative to the Fermaid-O.

Are you using the TOSNA 2 or 3 version? 3.0 was recently released and it's on the Mead Made Right web site. It's creator (Sergio?) has already done the work to dial all that in. Why are you trying to reinvent his wheel?

Apparently there are some calculator biases that may need to be corrected for: https://experimeads.com/2017/10/24/g-ferm-yan-and-mineral-protocols/

 

[NeverDie]

For instance, no matter how much GoFerm gets added, the TOSNA 3.0 calculator always recommends the same amount of Fermaid-O be added.

 

[RPh_Guy]

For instance, no matter how much GoFerm gets added, the TOSNA 3.0 calculator always recommends the same amount of Fermaid-O be added.

Edit: I see what you mean, if you override pitch rate.

Have you used TOSNA with dry yeast? It works if you don't go rogue.

 

[Maylar]

I don't see that GoFerm contributes anything that counts toward the YAN needed during fermentation. It seems to me that whatever is there gets used up during the rehydration process.
Is there something written that's contrary to that? Scott Labs only mentions micronutrients.

 

[FunkyMunk]

From Sergio Moutela (he posted this to the Modern Mead Makers Facebook group when TOSNA 3.0 came out): "As for accounting for YAN contribution from the addition of Go-Ferm during yeast rehydration, I do not factor that in anywhere. I have spoken with Scott Lab on a couple of occasions about this and their response was that the minimal amount of YAN contributed by Go-Ferm during rehydration is gone by the time the growth phase is over. From that point on is where required YAN levels come into play."

 

[NeverDie]

According to this: https://www.vawa.net/YANTable.pdf
GoFerm is, gram for gram, a little more than half the YAN that Fermaid-O is. If you're pitching yeast at 2g/gallon or less, then yes, it may not be much, although it's not nothing. On the other hand, if you were to pitch an entire 10g packet of dry yeast into 1 gallon of must, then the matching amount of GoFerm would be 12.5g, which is a not insignificant mount of YAN.

I have no idea whether the above table of YAN values is accurate, or even a reasonable approximation. I haven't yet attempted to confirm it.

---------------------------

On a different topic, meadmaderight says it uses this formula for TOSNA:
((((Brix x 10) * N requirement factor for your yeast) / 50) * Batch size in gallons) = Total grams of Fermaid-O needed

*Nitrogen requirement factors are: Low = 0.75, Medium = 0.90, High = 1.25
https://www.meadmaderight.com/nutrient-additions.html

However, plugging in some example numbers, it becomes apparent that the TOSNA 3.0 calculator must be using a different formula: the TOSNA 3.0 calculator output doesn't match the formula output. Nonetheless, the formula's output does match the output of the batchbuilder calculator: https://www.meadmakr.com/batch-buildr/ Because the formula is the same as what the TOSNA 2.0 formula was, it's clear that the TOSNA 3.0 formula is different and has not yet been posted--at least not on the public portion of the meadmaderight website. The TOSNA 3.0 calculator calls for the use of more Fermaid-O than a TOSNA 2.0 calculator would have.

 

[NeverDie]

Have you used TOSNA with dry yeast?

I'm running trials of TOSNA now with M5. I'm also trying it on Hornindal, because even though Omega Hornindal is a liquid yeast, I dried out the Hornindal yeast cake a while ago, and just today I tried re-animating it. Yup, it sprang back to life pronto. So, with Hornindal dry yeast, I figure I can now grow ferment using Hornindal within the TOSNA paradigm.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Very cool.
Don't forget to adjust the nutrient requirement factor for the kveik to "super high", but I'm sure you know that already.

I just got my hands on an original kviek culture (Midtbust mixed with Simonaitis) and I'm excited to try it in something.

It's great you're asking all these in-depth questions and running so many trials. You'll be making consistently amazing mead in no time... And you'll be able to help those of us with less experience.
Cheers

 

[Maylar]

TOSNA 2 and TOSNA 3 appear to use the same formulas.

An interesting note appeared over at gotmead on this:

Evidently, for the 3.0 calculator, the pitch rate is 0.25 g/liter, right up to an SG =1.099. It trips over to 0.5 g/liter as soon as you cross over from 1.099 to 1.100. It goes to 0.75 g/liter at 1.130 and 1.0 g/liter at 1.160.

Copied from Gotmead.com - Read More at:http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php/28057-TOSNA-2-vs-3?p=276587#post276587

Edit: This is for yeast pitch rate, not nutrients. Oops.

 

[NeverDie]

Very cool.
Don't forget to adjust the nutrient requirement factor for the kveik to "super high", but I'm sure you know that already.

If high is a 1.25 multiplier, I wonder what a good multiplier for "super high" would be?

I'm going to start a new thread about rehydrating kveik.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I wonder what a good multiplier for "super high" would be?

You could run some trials in sugar water if you don't want to waste honey.
1.7 might be a good starting point based on what I've read (from Justin Amaral at Mainiacal Yeast).

 

[FunkyMunk]

According to this: https://www.vawa.net/YANTable.pdf
GoFerm is, gram for gram, a little more than half the YAN that Fermaid-O is. If you're pitching yeast at 2g/gallon or less, then yes, it may not be much, although it's not nothing. On the other hand, if you were to pitch an entire 10g packet of dry yeast into 1 gallon of must, then the matching amount of GoFerm would be 12.5g, which is a not insignificant mount of YAN.

I have no idea whether the above table of YAN values is accurate, or even a reasonable approximation. I haven't yet attempted to confirm it.

---------------------------

On a different topic, meadmaderight says it uses this formula for TOSNA:
((((Brix x 10) * N requirement factor for your yeast) / 50) * Batch size in gallons) = Total grams of Fermaid-O needed

*Nitrogen requirement factors are: Low = 0.75, Medium = 0.90, High = 1.25
https://www.meadmaderight.com/nutrient-additions.html

However, plugging in some example numbers, it becomes apparent that the TOSNA 3.0 calculator must be using a different formula: the TOSNA 3.0 calculator output doesn't match the formula output. Nonetheless, the formula's output does match the output of the batchbuilder calculator: https://www.meadmakr.com/batch-buildr/ Because the formula is the same as what the TOSNA 2.0 formula was, it's clear that the TOSNA 3.0 formula is different and has not yet been posted--at least not on the public portion of the meadmaderight website. The TOSNA 3.0 calculator calls for the use of more Fermaid-O than a TOSNA 2.0 calculator would have.

Also from Sergio via the Facebook group:

"I didn't have anything to do with any of the TOSNA calculators on MeadMakr or GotMead, so I'm not sure how they calculated pitch rate.

The pitch rates on the official TOSNA 3.0 calculator are the ones I have always used, in line with what is recommend by Scott Labs, based on starting sugar content."

"None of the N factors were changed. The new version simply further “tailors” everything to the recipe."

So I'm guessing whatever inconsistencies are showing up between the two versions are due to those other websites and not differences between TOSNA 2.0 and 3.0.

I'm looking forward to your results comparing different amounts of Fermaid O. Although, based on my own and others' success using TOSNA, I predict that your batch using higher levels of F-O will have increased flavors associated with excess nutrient additions. Still, I applaud your efforts in exploring this for yourself; worst case, you will learn what too much F-O tastes like!

 

[NeverDie]

Very cool.
You'll be making consistently amazing mead in no time...
Cheers

LOL. I hope you're right. I do feel as though I'm at least getting closer to the truth on how to do it. That companies like Dansk Mjod seem able to make great mead consistently gives me optimism that it should be possible.

In contrast, the local brew, called Viking Mead, seems to be all over the map on their consistency. Every time I buy it, it tastes different than any of the previous times.

 

[RPh_Guy]

the local brew, called Viking Mead, seems to be all over the map on their consistency.

Maybe they wild ferment? The name has the implication.