Feeling defeated

[Wrinkle_Fever]

Hi all,
I wasn't positive where to post this, so I hope right here is alright.
I started brewing extract beer kits from Mr. Beer early last year. I believe I brewed a total of 9 of them. I picked out kits for different beer styles, stouts, ipas, ambers, porters, reds, and a weird one that used mountain dew as the base instead of water. Aside from the IPA and the MTN dew beer, they all taste nearly identical. And not really in a good way. They are drinkable, but nothing that I'd ever want to share with anyone and have pride on my chest. So I did a bunch of reading and learning, and felt like maybe it was because I was using the prehopped extract from Mr. Beer.

So I went to a local homebrew store, bought an oatmeal stout extract kit and went about making it. I worked extra hard and made sure everything was sanitized as thoroughly as I could. I converted my garage fridge into a ferm chamber and managed to hold the fermenation period at 68 degress, plus or minus 2. Spent 3 weeks fermenting, final gravity had stopped changing so I went ahead and bottled. I tried a bottle at 2 weeks, and it there was very little enjoyable about it. Had a very slight oatmeal flavor to it, which I was happy about, but aside from that, the beer wasn't very good. Here I am at 4 weeks conditioning time, tried another last night, and it still tastes the same. Just very under average. But my biggest issue I see here, is that this stout I just made, tastes almost the same as all the other MR Beer recipes I had made when I started. I can't hardly tell any difference between this stout and the amber or irish red that I had made.

I would love some feedback on what I'm doing wrong, because I'm really starting to feel defeated with this. I love the process of brewing so much, and I want to continue it. But I also want to share it, but if I can't make anything acceptable tasting, then I'm just at a loss.

 

[Brews and Blues]

What water are you using? I know very little about water chemistry, but what i have learned is what NOT to use. So as a newbie, i just stick with RO Water. But from what i have read on this forum, sometimes when brews have a consistent problem, you trace is back to the one constant - the water. Bad water makes bad beer.
Also, i have never done a Mr Beer kit but i haven't heard great things. I have done mainly extract kits and have had great results with all of them. Now that you are past the Mr Beer kit, I wouldn't go back.

 

[Golddiggie]

It would help to have more information of what the flavors you're talking about. Do they have any of the flavors listed here??
Beyond the water, how are you sanitizing your cold side gear? I would NEVER use chlorine based sanitizers for my brewing gear. Any kits that include such things should be shamed and avoided.

 

[Brewer dad]

+1 on the water. I started using RO a few months ago and it made a huge difference. Plus if nothing else if you use RO and get same results you can eliminate the water factor.

Oxidation could be another factor. Is the vessel you're fermenting in leaky(air)? When transferring or bottling beer are you splashing at all?

Quality of ingredients is also a thing even with extract. As above I'm not familiar with these kits, but haven't heard super great things about them.

Your statement regarding everything tasting mostly the same leads me to the water issue first. My problem was somewhat similar, and I had a couple darker beers taste mostly the same despite being different styles.

 

[Golddiggie]

If the water being used is heavily chlorinated (most city/grid water is) then that could be the major flavor you're getting. Use either distilled (bottled) water for the batch, or get a quality filtering/RO system installed to run the water through before it touches your ingredients.

When I moved in where I am now I had Ward Labs test my water (from a well) and it actually came back as really good for brewing. A little on the hard side, which is actually good in some instances. I do filter the water to dial that back a little and have been getting great batches so far.
Next place I move to, I'll get a water test performed (again, by Ward Labs) to see what the water looks like. Even if it's well water, it's good to get it tested. Hell, even if you're on city water, it would be good to get it tested just so you can see what they're doing to it. Keep in mind, most city water has different treatment levels depending on the time of the year. IIRC they increase the chlorine levels for the summer/warmer months. I hope I'm never on city/town/grid water again.

 

[hotbeer]

I just started with some all grain one gallon kits back in January and I've been very happy with my beers. Though one was a tad cloudy with what I imagine was suspended yeast when poured in my glass. It still tasted good to me. But I'm not real fussy.

I agree with the others that one of your first suspicions should be your water. What were you using?

I've used bottled water that I've been using for years to brew my morning coffee with because our municipal water is extremely high pH. I'm told many municipal water systems keep pH high to help lock up the lead in old plumbing and distribution systems.

A lot of bottled water is RO water that has had a minerals added back to it to give a particular taste. Similarly, others are distilled with minerals added back and others very highly filtered and again, minerals added back.

The minerals are what gives the water it's taste. So all the brands pretty much control and ensure the mineral makeup of their product. Some have the analysis published on their website.

So try a batch with some store bought water. You might even find a home delivery water vendor and get carboys in various sizes delivered to your home. What you do with the carboy before returning the empty carboy is up to you I suppose.

 

[IslandLizard]

So sorry you have such bad experiences brewing so far.

I'd stay away from Mr. Beer. Period!
And any other pre-hopped extract "kits."

As others have addressed already, water can definitely be an issue, as are other ingredients.
Besides, brewing has much to do with process, process, process. And sanitation.

Can you post the recipe of that Oatmeal Stout? Was that a "recipe kit" assembled by your LHBS?

For extract brewing you need:

• Fresh extract. Dry Malt Extract (DME) keeps better with time than liquid extracts (LME), which are much more subject to staling.
• Hops. In 1 or 2 oz (or larger) sealed oxygen barrier bags. There are many varieties, each with their own unique flavor, aroma, and bittering character. Which and when to use depends on the beer you're brewing.
• Good, clean, low mineral water. If you're not sure about the quality of your tap water, use distilled water or RO (Reverse Osmosis) water from a machine in supermarkets, Walmart, etc. Bring your own containers. At least for now.
• Yeast. Dry yeast is the simplest, there's a fairly large selection. For example, S-04 or US-05 are a good start for many beers. So is Kveik.
• A large pot/kettle to boil in. For a 5 gallon batch a 3-4 gallon pot would suffice. You can brew smaller batches to reduce the risk of getting stuck with too much of something you don't like, while honing your brewing skills.

If you're serious about home brewing, get a copy of John Palmer's How to Brew, 4th Ed.

Last but not least, what's your favorite beer?

 

[Jag75]

Along with water hows the cleaning of your equipment?

 

[GoeHaarden]

Water is less of a concern with extract, but if you want to eliminate it as a source try using store bought filtered/RO water like others have stated.

You're already controlling fermentation temps so you are ahead of a lot of others. I think its one of the best things you can do for better beer. Don't give up yet...


I wonder if it's oxidation since all the beers taste the same!? It doesn't sound like you're using a secondary, but if you are then stop.

What is your bottling process?

 

[GoodTruble]

Same thoughts as above. Main suspicions are:

Water - use reverse osmosis bottle water from a store to see if it makes a difference.

Oxygen - what cold side process & equipment are you using - if your beer all has the same mediocre taste, oxygenation may be the problem.

Yeast - Just a wild stab, but are you using the same yeast for every batch?

Temperature - This shouldn't make every beer taste the same, unless maybe they are all fermenting notably too high (like mid 70's F or higher).

Sanitation - Unlikely, but maybe some contamination or previous batch/yeast is lingering around that carries over to each batch (but I don't think that's it).

Whatever the problem is, it IS solvable! And you found a good place to look for ways to solve it. -If you enjoy brewing and already learned the basic techniques, you're 90% the way there!

Keep brew'n.

 

[Bobby_M]

I would be very impressed if someone can make a decent beer with Mr. Beer. I couldn't and I know a few top brewers who were challenged to make a Mr. Beer recipe and it sucked too.

Agreeing with everything said so far.

Use distilled water just in case your tap water is chlorinated and/or very mineral heavy. Extract has minerals in it already.

Use dry malt extract and never liquid/syrup extracts. Add only half of your extract at the beginning of the boil and add the second half in the last 5-10 minutes of the boil. Liquid malt has a shelf of life of about 3 weeks before it starts darkening and tasting weird.

Avoid oxidation. The fact that you stated you knew fermentation was done was because you tested the gravity and it wasn't changing suggests you opened the fermenter multiple times. Don't do that. Oxidation doesn't always present itself in the same way but one thing it always does is erase nuances in flavor across the board. It will kill hops in a hoppy beer and kill malt in a malty beer leaving you with blah.

Keep the beer in the primary fermenter (hopefully one that does not leak air) for 3 weeks and then bottle it. Ferment the first 5-7 days near the yeast's low temperature range and then raise the temp up a few degrees for the remainder of the 3 weeks.

The last thing is yeast. Either use a pack of dry yeast or pitch two packs of liquid if you must.


Follow all these steps and I guarantee improvement.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What's interesting about LME is that it comes in many more varieties.

There are a couple of experienced brewers here who apparently have found a way to buy it fresh.

Determining freshness before brewing isn't hard (BYO had an article on that in Dec 2020).

There are also a couple of experienced brewers here who talk about successfully using older LME to make big stouts.

No reason to be "afraid" of LME (it's just like any other ingredient): buy it fresh, store it properly, use it quickly.

Aside from the IPA and the MTN dew beer, [the others - [ stouts, ambers, porters, reds ] all taste nearly identical.

Without knowing the source of your water, this suggests that you are using tap water that has 1) "too many" minerals for the brand of extract that you are using, 2) chlorine/etc from the local water treatment process.

As others have suggested, try using distilled, RO, or a low mineral spring water.

edited for typos.

 

[bwible]

I can't hardly tell any difference between this stout and the amber or irish red that I had made.

That’s troubling.
Appearance-wise the amber and the Irish Red could be fairly close. They should look reddish with some clarity. The stout should be much darker, nearly black, and opaque.
Flavor-wise, the Irish red should probably be the lightest in hops of the 3, with some slight roastiness and a more malty balance. The amber should be more hop forward. The stout should be much more roasty.

The fermentation chamber is a great step.

You stated these are extract brews. Can you tell us more about your process? How much beer are you making? How big is your brew pot? Are you boiling the full volume or are you doing a concentrated boil? I had issues like this when I started out. I was doing concentrated boils and because of that I was not making good beer.

Fresh ingredients are important, and this goes double for extract. Particularly liquid extract in a can. We all have stories about experimenting with old extract and the majority of those stories don’t end well.

Hops are supposed to be kept refrigerated and should be sold in packaging that is flushed of air. Some shops buy hops by the pound and break them down themselves into little plastic 1oz bags. I would avoid those like the plague. Some boxed kits also have packs of hops in the box and they sit on the shelf for months.

Do the beers possibly have an off flavor that is making them taste the same? A common off flavor is band aid, chloraseptic flavor. That’s a contamination issue from something that wasn’t sanitized coming in contact with your prepared wort after the boil. Or chlorinated water.

Many here will help you.

 

[madscientist451]

I tried a bottle at 2 weeks, and it there was very little enjoyable about it.
Had a very slight oatmeal flavor to it, which I was happy about, but aside from that, the beer wasn't very good.
But my biggest issue I see here, is that this stout I just made, tastes almost the same as all the other MR Beer recipes I had made when I started. I can't hardly tell any difference between this stout and the amber or irish red that I had made.

I would love some feedback on what I'm doing wrong, because I'm really starting to feel defeated with this.

So you're on the right track, you have a fermentation chamber, you're trying different things, and attempting to make your brews better.
If you want to make better beer, stop using kits. You have no way of knowing how long those kits have been at the store waiting to be purchased.
Get A BIAB bag and start brewing simple all grain beers. User a strike water calculator, heat your water, add your grain and your bag and don't mess with it for 60 minutes or so, pull your bag out and start your boil. It really is that simple, there's no "magic" to making wort. Yeah, you can make it super complicated, but its better to save that for after you've got a few brews completed.
I've never had an oatmeal stout that tasted anything like oatmeal, oats add body and mouthfeel to a beer. You can use regular instant oats you get at the grocery store in you beers. There are lots of great recipes floating around on the internet, but here's a book I started with and still come back to from time to time:
https://www.amazon.com/Brooklyn-Brew-Shops-Beer-Making/dp/0307889203
It has 1 gallon recipes you can simply double or triple for 2-3 gallons. I don't follow all their directions/process, but its a good place to start all grain.
Brew small batches for variety and experience and if you have to dump one, you have less money wasted.
Go on you tube and watch videos on BIAB brewing, sanitation and bottling.

 

[Wrinkle_Fever]

My goodness, I wasn't expecting this mountain of responses. Thank you all so much for your time.

For the first few Mr Beer kits I had brewed, I just used the filtered water from my fridge. I drink the water all day, and I had read that if I enjoyed it, it was likely fine for brewing. When all the beers were tasting the same, I ended up creeping around on your forum and came to the conclusion that it's either the water or the mr beer kit. Not wanting to buy another kit, I opted to just start buying jugs of spring water from walmart. The taste in the beers did not change enough for me to notice. I tried another kit and was let down again, so I figured it had to be the kits that just sucked. That's when I went to the LHBS and picked up their stuff. Here's the recipe they gave me:

Up & Over Oatmeal Stout
Malt	Hops	Yeast
7 lbs. Amber LME 1 lb. Flaked Oats (steep) ½ lb. Roasted Barley (steep) ½ lb. Chocolate Malt (steep)	½ oz. Wye Challenger 60) ½ oz. Fuggle 30) ½ oz. Wye Challenger 30) ½ oz. Fuggle 10)	WLP004 Irish ale Yeast Pitch/Ferment at 65f-70f Priming Sugar
Original Gravity – 1.057 IBU’s – 33 Color – 32.3 SRM Alcohol – 5.6%

@IslandLizard I have no intentions of getting another mr beer kit. There has been nothing really good about that situation, aside from learning some basics. I have read some of John Palmers stuff, but don't have that book yet, so I'll add it to my list. Oh, and for my favorite beer? I can't claim any of my own, so it would be a toss-up between my local brewery's Hoptopus or DogFish's 120m IPA.
@Golddiggie The closest flavor profiles I could detect on from your list was Lightstruck & Metallic. Now that I've read that article you sent me to, I'm wondering about the lightstruck profile. I cannot remember why this happened, but there was one day after fermentation, right before I got to bottle that my fermenter ended up sitting in the kitchen for the day. My fermenter is one of These . It's not clear, but mostly just white opaque. The kitchen doesn't get a huge amount of sunlight, maybe only about 15 or 20 minutes a day, the rest of the time it's just shaded. Do you think that one day might have been enough to ruin my beer? Although that wouldn't be consistent with all the other brews I had made, as none of those were subjected to light like that.

As far as sanitizer goes, I've been using StarSan on everything. I'll take all of my equipment and wash it by hand in the sink, rinse, and then soak everything in sanitizer for the duration of the brew process until I need to use it. When bottling day comes, I'll wash out my brew pot and refill it with more sanitizer, then I'll drop my siphon, hose, bottle caps, and whatever else I have in there and let them soak. I rinse out all of my bottles after they've been used, and then on bottling day, I'll run them thru the dish washer on Hi-Temp cycle, then fill them with sanitizer until I'm about to fill them. (Is it okay to leave the foam in the bottles from the StarSan? Not a lot, just the little bit I can't get to drip out?)

The recipe I got from the LHBS said to transfer into a secondary after a week, but after reading on here, most of the opinions were to not take the chance on the secondary, and to just leave it in the primary. So I never used a secondary on anything I've done.

I'm not sure about oxidation. Aside from aeration when I first put the wort into my fermenter (consisted of me shaking the fermenter for a few minutes), I've tried pretty hard to minimize any movement or splashing. I do agree that oxygen likely got in there when I tested the gravity twice, but do you think that would have really impacted the beer this much?

@GoodTruble Sadly the yeast that comes with those mr beer kits that I had done don't actually tell you what yeast they are. However with this one is was WLP004 Irish ale yeast. And It can't be lingering contamination from a previous batch, as this was the first time I had used this new fermenter. I had a suspicion with the older fermenters I had that maybe something was causing me some type of issue like that.

@Bobby_M I did not realize that LME had such a short shelf life. That's a bit frustrating. I have another container of LME that I picked up at the same time for a Honey Brown Ale that I was hoping to make soon, but if the life is that short, then it's likely already too old and will taste weird. Also, why pitch multiple packs of yeast? I had mentioned this to the guy at the LHBS and he said that it would be pointless and I only need one. I'll happily pitch two if it will make my stuff taste better though.

@bwible The color differences with all my beers have been nice and obvious, thankfully. But the flavor remains all consistent across the board. Prior to this batch, everything I had done has been 2 gallons. This was the first 5 gallon brew I had attempted. My brew pot is 7 gallons I think. As far as the boil, I added the ingredients according to the recipe, and then at the end I had to add extra water to get the entire batch up to 5 gallons. I can't remember how much water I added.

@madscientist451 Thank you for that input. I've looked into BIAB several times, and I do plan on moving to that soon, after I can figure out how to make a decent beer out of this last extract kit that I have. Based on all the comments above, it's pretty clear that I'll need to get new extract, but perhaps it will still turn out alright once I change that out and solve whatever other issue is plagueing me. And thank you for the link to that book. I've added to my cart.

Again, thank you everyone so much for all the input you've given me. All this support has really changed my mindset. I was really thinking I'd just have to be stuck making garbage beers, but you've all given me hope.

 

[GoodTruble]

After reading the additional info, my best guess as to why beers would have the same mediocre taste is that oxygen is creeping into the fermenter. I am not familiar with that type of fermenter, but your water and sanitation process seem good enough (maybe use distilled water instead of spring, but that shouldn't make too much difference as chlorine is main thing to address).

I would guess "mr beer" is the problem, but that doesn't explain the local homebrew shop kit having the same taste/problem.

Another potential issue, when washing/sanitizing, are you using any soap/dishwasher detergent? Soaps and detergents can have tastes and scents that stick around. Best to use unscented soap and no dishwasher detergent (just use the heat).

Also, starsan works great to santize, but it will break down plastics slowly over time (not an immediate problem, but maybe a long term issue to think about).

 

[bmc1313]

Since you have tried different kits and different water, do you know any other brewers in your area? Especially someone that you think makes good beer? It might be a good idea to invite them over for a joint brew-day to see if maybe they notice something in your process.

 

[jbschuyler]

All good ideas above to look into for improved beer.

I've gotta say though if it wasn't for my start with Mr. Beer, I wouldn't be hanging out on this site everyday!

 

[bracconiere]

I've gotta say though if it wasn't for my start with Mr. Beer, I wouldn't be hanging out on this site everyday!

ahh the memories of the 90's!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... if it wasn't for my start with Mr. Beer, I wouldn't be ...

Kits get us started, discussion moves us forward.

 

[Cyclman]

Liquid malt extract, hops, yeast, all have a shelflife and deteriorate with time. Buying ingredients from your local homebrew shop, possibly using dry malt extract in lieu of liquid, All those could make a major difference. I think the best advice is to find a local homebrew club, See if an experienced Brewer would be willing to brew with you, And they may be able to help you troubleshoot. Making good beer is not terribly difficult, but it has so many steps and so many places that things can go wrong. Whatever you do, don’t give up, many people make great beer as homebrew!

 

[IslandLizard]

Excellent advice! ^
If I could like it twice or thrice, I would have.

 

[Bilsch]

One wonders if the person you are getting the advice from at the LHBS knows what they are doing?

 

[bracconiere]

One wonders if the person you are getting the advice from at the LHBS knows what they are doing?

from what i've seen if i ran a HBS L or I, i'd just use bags of malt as floor tiles and call it milled, lol

it'd be good for worker stress!

 

[bwible]

Just a couple notes:
- I do tend to rinse the Star San foam out of the bottles. They claim you don’t have to.
- A week of fermentation is probably good, but the only way to really know when the beer is finished is by taking a hydrometer reading. That’s tough to do without opening your fermenter. They do make an electronic hydrometer called a Tilt that you can leave in your beer and get readings without opening. But they cost about $100.
- There seems to be a big current trend of people being overly obsessed about oxygen in their beer. Take it for what it is. Many of us have been making good beer for 20+ years and we’ve never done spunding or closed keg transfers or any of that. So many people now want to automatically jump to oxygen as the cause of every fault.
- Cans of LME have an expiration date on them. Friends and family who are not brewers have bought me kits from homebrew shops with expired extract because they didn’t know to look at the dates.
- Multiple packs of yeast is something people do with larger batches or high gravity batches. You can do that - or you can make a starter in advance out of one package.
- Only brown bottles offer any protection from light. Green or clear bottles can lead to skunk flavor. (Think Corona and Heineken.)

 

[VikeMan]

^ That's a pirated copy. (edit: post removed)

The legally free first edition is at Welcome to How to Brew - How to Brew

 

[Bluekat]

What water are you using? I know very little about water chemistry, but what i have learned is what NOT to use. So as a newbie, i just stick with RO Water. But from what i have read on this forum, sometimes when brews have a consistent problem, you trace is back to the one constant - the water. Bad water makes bad beer.
Also, i have never done a Mr Beer kit but i haven't heard great things. I have done mainly extract kits and have had great results with all of them. Now that you are past the Mr Beer kit, I wouldn't go back.

I brew Coopers kits semi regularly and use distilled water-its made a big difference. Im still drinking a Coopers Cerveza that I brewed with distilled water plus 3 pounds of light DME. It has way less of that "extract taste." It's very crushable and I'll certainly brew it again.

 

[NSMikeD]

Which commercial beer do you like. Then look up an extract clone beer recipe - BYO has good ones and I often use Clone Brews, many LHBS carry a few copies of the book. Get the ingredients a la cart and brew away. This will rule out expectations of recipies that won’t deliver what you are seeking.

Palmer’s 1st edition is free online. Perfect fir a beginner.
http://www.howtobrew.com/
As for kits, I real like a Palmer’s Elevenses brown ale kit from Northern Brewer. It’s available as a partial mash kit which you may wish to try as a way of crossing over to all grain (BIAB). Toasting the oats adds a dimension to the flavor and mouthfeel. Check out the kit on the site for the instructions and their info on doing partial mash to see if that’s for you.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Palmer’s 1st edition is free online. Perfect fir a beginner.

Respectfully, with regard to extract brewing, howtobrew.com is about 20 years behind good brewing practices in numerous areas (for example: transfers to secondary).

 

[ForReal]

^ That's a pirated copy. (edit: post removed)

The legally free first edition is at Welcome to How to Brew - How to Brew

I did not know!! I bough the hard copy. Thanks for the official link.