Faster finishing cider

[podz]

After some 15-20 batches of cider under my belt, I am starting to get a bit frustrated with the long fermentation times.

For example, I ferment a stout and it finishes in 4 days. I ferment a 17% ABV raspberry wine and it finishes in 7 days. I ferment a 9% ABV cider and it will ferment for a month or more unless I cold crash it first (which I usually do).

I want to determine how to adjust my recipe and process so that my cider will finish in 7 days max.

My normal recipe is basically the same as Edwort's, except I use Kitzinger Champagne yeast instead of Montrachet. I started to suspect that the long fermentation time was due to lack of nutrients.

With my current batch, I added 100g of dried raisins and 100g of yeast energizer from a Turbo Yeast pack (I didn't use Turbo Yeast itself, just half of the energizer packet). Too soon to tell yet, only 2.5 days in, but is this a step in the right direction or should I be doing something more? It does seem to be fermenting more vigorously than normal at this stage, but I haven't opened it for a reading yet.

Edit: I also use sucrose instead of dextrose because I refuse to pay the price. Should I invert the sucrose before fermentation in order to decrease lag time, or does the apple juice already have enough fructose to mitigate the problem until the sucrose is converted by the invertase?

Thanks.

 

[Randzor]

Wait 17% wine in 7 days.... Can you enlighten me on yeast/process/how?(pm is fine...) my yeast is usually done in 7 days for anything under 12% using champagne yeast, but it'll let it sit for another 4 weeks to clear up.

 

[podz]

Wait 17% wine in 7 days.... Can you enlighten me on yeast/process/how?(pm is fine...) my yeast is usually done in 7 days for anything under 12% using champagne yeast, but it'll let it sit for another 4 weeks to clear up.

Sure, the package I used is labeled extra fast although they do not elaborate on the strain of yeast they package I suspected that due to the strong and fast fermentation that it was EC-1118 and DAP.

http://translate.google.com/transla...ww.lappo.fi/product/471/karahvi-kaymispakkaus

Basically, the process is just following the instructions on the chemical kit: hydrate the yeast and DAP, then stir vigorously every day. It ferments violently and finishes fast, didn't taste bad either. Perhaps I should use the same for my ciser.

 

[krackin]

Sounds like distillers' yeast.

 

[Randzor]

Do you stir it with open airlock or with a closed airlock?

 

[podz]

Sounds like distillers' yeast.

Whatever, it's a 7 gram pack, it produces a wine that tastes fine to everybody I gave it to, and it's beside the main point of this thread. The point is that if my stout can finish in 4 days, then so can my cider. I need to figure out what the cider is missing in order to make it happen.

To the other question: the wine, I was stirring with a large, plastic brewing paddle. The cider, I don't stir at all. Can the stirring alone really be the only difference? If so, I mean that's an easy fix.

 

[krackin]

You have a good question there. I don't use much distiller's yeast and only have 1 pack on hand since last year. I'm pretty sure it calls for vigorous daily stirring and aeration for a few days. It needs a fair amount of headspace. I'll have to look around now that you have got me going on it.

 

[Randzor]

I started one gallon of Apple cider with 1 tsb of McCormick pumpkin pie spices to it. added enough sugar to it to get to 8% alcohol. Finished in 4-5 days. How much do you aerorate your cider? I think that yeast initially use the o2 to reproduce fast, while when it moves onto the anaerobic stage, it is much slower to reproduce. Could this be your problem?

 

[podz]

I started one gallon of Apple cider with 1 tsb of McCormick pumpkin pie spices to it. added enough sugar to it to get to 8% alcohol. Finished in 4-5 days. How much do you aerorate your cider? I think that yeast initially use the o2 to reproduce fast, while when it moves onto the anaerobic stage, it is much slower to reproduce. Could this be your problem?

That's the kind of finish I'm looking for, thanks for confirmation that it works.

I don't aerate the cider at all, other than pouring it through a funnel into the demijohn. How did you aerate? By stirring or using an aquarium stone?

EDIT: I have also started a new batch directly on top of the yeast slurry from a batch that I was racking, so there was a huge yeast colony and it still did not ferment any faster. I tried that technique with both US-05 and Kitzinger's Champagne yeast - same slow ferment.

 

[Randzor]

I add sugar to half a bottle of apple juice, shake like the devil and pour it in the carboy. I also do a starter about 1 hour before. The cake yeast might be stressed and the viable number of yeast cells are probably lower than a whole new pack of yeast. I'd read up on the life cycle of yeast, and see if there is anything there can help you get to point a to point b fast.

 

[podz]

I add sugar to half a bottle of apple juice, shake like the devil and pour it in the carboy. I also do a starter about 1 hour before. The cake yeast might be stressed and the viable number of yeast cells are probably lower than a whole new pack of yeast. I'd read up on the life cycle of yeast, and see if there is anything there can help you get to point a to point b fast.

If I am using Champagne yeast that can tolerate 17% ABV and I only ferment up to 8% ABV, shouldn't the yeast cake be "unstressed"?

Probably I am going to start my next batch in the pail where I can stir it easily. Stirring in the demijohn isn't too easy since I don't have one of those drill attachment mixers. Then I can rack it to the demijohn for some secondary fermentation if I want.

 

[skadalajara]

You guys should check the mead section. Similar discussions going there.
The conventional wisdom seems to be staggered nutrient additions, daily aeration for the first few days and daily degassing for the next few days.
If it works for meads and wines, why not cider?

 

[Randzor]

If I am using Champagne yeast that can tolerate 17% ABV and I only ferment up to 8% ABV, shouldn't the yeast cake be "unstressed"?

Probably I am going to start my next batch in the pail where I can stir it easily. Stirring in the demijohn isn't too easy since I don't have one of those drill attachment mixers. Then I can rack it to the demijohn for some secondary fermentation if I want.

I'd say due to it being second generation. ABV isn't all that stresses out yeast. There is ph, nutrients and I'm sure other items that may effect the yeast. Fresh backs are generally better.

 

[bssrf4]

I think edwort's apfelwein is missing some of the natural 'nutrients' that come with beer wort. I use yeast nutrient and found that it tastes better faster. But to be honest, I like to let my apfelwein bulk age.

 

[podz]

I cracked it: the nutrient is the secret.

Big yeast starter doesn't help, hydration doesn't help, temperature doesn't help, oxygenation doesn't help, ale vs champagne yeast doesn't help. I've tried every possible combination of experiments, nothing helps except DAP. With a healthy dose of DAP and a 5 gram packet of Kitzinger's champagne yeast in an 18 celcius room, I fermented apple juice and sugar to 14% ABV and completely flocculated in 10 days flat. Now, I'm sure that I can hit 7-8% ABV in 7 days. No more waiting for a month for my cider to ferment.

 

[jsDC]

I cracked it: the nutrient is the secret.

Big yeast starter doesn't help, hydration doesn't help, temperature doesn't help, oxygenation doesn't help, ale vs champagne yeast doesn't help. I've tried every possible combination of experiments, nothing helps except DAP. With a healthy dose of DAP and a 5 gram packet of Kitzinger's champagne yeast in an 18 celcius room, I fermented apple juice and sugar to 14% ABV and completely flocculated in 10 days flat. Now, I'm sure that I can hit 7-8% ABV in 7 days. No more waiting for a month for my cider to ferment.

Nutrient use is a game changer. I've brewed 5 or so batches of cider using a variety of juice types and yeast but always with nutrient (specifically this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0064H0MWY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20). Fermentation is always visible within a day or two of pitching and is done within 7 days. The other benefit is that it can help prevent the sulfur aroma some find occurs in cider making. I've never had an unpleasant odor from fermentation. I even use that nutrient in beer making.

 

[Randzor]

Pods you must be rubbing off on me... I started a batch last night and it wasn't going by this morning...(actually its because I was trying to keep it cool under the stairs, but I think it got to cold.)

 

[MindenMan]

podz, you ROCK! I have a cider project I need to get going and bottled soon so some can be given as Christmas gifts. I do realize, that aging cider to get the best results requires some time in the bottle, but I have no control over that as they will be a gift to some family members.

One more question: what is a "healthy " dose of DAP for 5 gallons?

So I can use a little DAP, to make my split starters bloom?

 

[jsDC]

podz, you ROCK! I have a cider project I need to get going and bottled soon so some can be given as Christmas gifts. I do realize, that aging cider to get the best results requires some time in the bottle, but I have no control over that as they will be a gift to some family members.

One more question: what is a "healthy " dose of DAP for 5 gallons?

So I can use a little DAP, to make my split starters bloom?

I use 1 tsp/gallon for DAP with urea.

 

[podz]

One more question: what is a "healthy " dose of DAP for 5 gallons?

I probably overdid it, but I think I used like at least 50 grams.

 

[podz]

Nutrient use is a game changer. I've brewed 5 or so batches of cider using a variety of juice types and yeast but always with nutrient (specifically this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0064H0MWY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20). Fermentation is always visible within a day or two of pitching and is done within 7 days. The other benefit is that it can help prevent the sulfur aroma some find occurs in cider making. I've never had an unpleasant odor from fermentation. I even use that nutrient in beer making.

Out of all my batches if cider, I've only experienced the sulfur smell once when the temp was 23-24 celcius in my basement (during the height of summer). Even then, it wasn't very noticeable. It might have something to do with the particular brand of juice / type of apples. Or maybe some people can smell it and some can't, sort of like the asparagus piss.

 

[MindenMan]

Thanks podz. I still a have a question, Will dap help my yeast starter building happen faster? When I want to make a starter to be able to split up, is DAP helpful, detrimental, or non effecting?

 

[podz]

Thanks podz. I still a have a question, Will dap help my yeast starter building happen faster? When I want to make a starter to be able to split up, is DAP helpful, detrimental, or non effecting?

Sure, it helps the starter build faster.