F the BS! HD 5500 BK element Myth Busting

[TimWeber]

Sorry again that this is off topic.

CodeRage I am just trying to maintain my mash temp at 154 with the element in a RIMS heat exchanger. I am pumping the liquid slowly from the mash tun, though the HEX and back to the top of the MT. I am basing my system on the Brewmagic, similar to sawdustguys build. Without insulating, how can I maintain my mash temps.

My thought, a higher density element, LD as opposed to ELD, will heat the RIMS faster allowing me to maintain my temp. It won't supply more heat, it will just supply the same amount of heat faster to the stream of moving liquid.

If a LD element will work I'll go with that.

 

[nostalgia]

Holy crap I never even considered doing it weldless. Brilliant! Glad I came by

-Joe

 

[Sawdustguy]

No, the change in Watt Density doesnt affect how much power you are putting into the wort. It's the same amount of power over a different surface area.

You have 2 choices, insulate better or add more power. From what I've read it takes about 2 to 3kW to get 5 gal to maintain a boil.

I don't think he is trying to maintain a boil. He is simply trying to maintain Mash temperatures.

Sawdustguy
I purchased the 120-1500-ELD Element, which is not working.

If I use a 120-1500-LD do you think that will provide enough heat?

I don't understand this. The RIMS heater is not designed to heat water up to mash temperatures. You still need a HLT to heat up strike water to 170ish*. All the RIMS does is maintain your 150ish mash temperature and 1500 watts should be plenty of power to do that. Try the LD heater, but the ELD should work. The LD works great in my brewery.

 

[Yooper]

When the brew rig is rockin' dont bother knockin'!

Oh, yeah, it was rocking! I almost had a boil over, in a 5 gallon batch!

I found that once I got it up to boiling, it only took 65% power to keep it at a boil the entire time.

LOVE it. It got up to a boil fast, and I know there is enough power there to easily boil a larger batch, if I ever want to use it for a 10 gallon batch.

 

[CodeRage]

TW, I've used a 1500 HWD element and a 1125 LWD element for my RIMS. They both worked well once I started to use a lid. It's amazing how much heat escapes through an open kettle. I would hit mash temps open the lid and watch my temps plummet with the element on. Slower flow rates help too. I also ended up putting 2 wraps of reflectix on it which helped stabilize the temps that much more.

In short. The water is going to absorb the heat coming off of the element as fast as the element can dish it. Watt Density isnt going to affect the transfer other than how hot the liquid located around the element gets in one pass, once it moves down the pipe all that stratification goes away as the super hot water blends with the cooler water.

I know for a fact in my system I have a lot of heat loss around the RIMS unit itself. I never insulated it because it was made of polished copper. If I ever go back to a smaller element I will insulate it. You may want to consider the same thing.
I've got an idea to mount the RIMS unit in the MLT to utilize the radiant heat wasted by an external HEX. SWMBO isn't too hot on building a new brewery so I'll let that idea mature for a while .

The nice thing about electric is the efficiency. 99% of the energy used is being put directly into the water. So we try to balance the amount of power needed to maintain temps but in order to do that you need to limit the heat loss in the rest of the system. Unless you have a glut of power with a bigger element or burner insulation is going to be a problem.

Edit- Sawdustguy, Yeah I don't know why I had a boil requirement stuck in my head. He did say RIMS. caught me half awake again.

 

[Sawdustguy]

TW, I've used a 1500 HWD element and a 1125 LWD element for my RIMS. They both worked well once I started to use a lid. It's amazing how much heat escapes through an open kettle. I would hit mash temps open the lid and watch my temps plummet with the element on. Slower flow rates help too. I also ended up putting 2 wraps of reflectix on it which helped stabilize the temps that much more.

In short. The water is going to absorb the heat coming off of the element as fast as the element can dish it. Watt Density isnt going to affect the transfer other than how hot the liquid located around the element gets in one pass, once it moves down the pipe all that stratification goes away as the super hot water blends with the cooler water.

I know for a fact in my system I have a lot of heat loss around the RIMS unit itself. I never insulated it because it was made of polished copper. If I ever go back to a smaller element I will insulate it. You may want to consider the same thing.
I've got an idea to mount the RIMS unit in the MLT to utilize the radiant heat wasted by an external HEX. SWMBO isn't too hot on building a new brewery so I'll let that idea mature for a while .

The nice thing about electric is the efficiency. 99% of the energy used is being put directly into the water. So we try to balance the amount of power needed to maintain temps but in order to do that you need to limit the heat loss in the rest of the system. Unless you have a glut of power with a bigger element or burner insulation is going to be a problem.

Great point about the lid. This spring I am definitely insulating my MLT Keggle. I never believed how much heat was lost without the lid until I saw it first hand.

 

[TimWeber]

Here is a picture of my test rig. I am using this to prove my system before I buy a bunch of structual tubing.

Ignore the cooler. I heat my strike water using the HEX and propane. Not just the HEX. For these tests I used an aditional heat stick and had to wait an hour for the temp to reach 160F.

I have a blichmann autosparge, Ill try running the liquid though it instead of the additional copper pipe so that I can put my lid on. Ill try insulating the HEX. I don't really want to insulated my MT because its just so pretty! yeah I know that's a waste.

If there is no additional heating capacity between a ULWD and a HD element, what's the point of using a HD element? Cheeper? Takes up less space? If you already had the ULWD element why switch? Just to prove that it doesn't mater?

Thanks for your help, and letting my throw up a bit on your organized thread.

 

[p-nut]

I am in the process of building a 5 gallon no-sparge RIMS system now. The RIMS has a 5500 watt HD element. Before anyone freaks out I am aware this is crazy. I already have some LD elements ordered. I have been testing and I can heat strike water from 60 to 150 in 40 minutes. Once the temp is reached the element fires occasionally at a rate of .1 sec during a 2 sec cycle time. I am going to try and run a batch through with this element. I am hoping that using a very very thin mash and a faster flow rate will reduce the risk of scorching. This is assuming I can actually pump fast enough without compacting the grain. Someone needs to try it. Once again I know this is crazy.

 

[CodeRage]

TW, no worries. The worry about the HD elements is that all that heat is being transfered over a very small area making it pretty concentrated. It has been speculated that this will cause burnt flavors and extra caramelization. On the Ed's Pale Ale I used a 4500W LWD for my RIMS and a 5500W HWD for my BK. My grain bed kept getting compacted and caused my recirculation to run at a trickle. Even still it didnt seem to impart any of flavors.

Now there is a problem with my layout being pump is between the temp probe and the HEX. So if my flow stops the HEX will get way too hot and start to boil the contents of the HEX. Depending on the water level in the MLT it behaves like a pressure cooker and gets super hot. This has happened once when I was preparing the system for a brew and it scorched what ever residue was in the HEX and it made for a pretty acrid odor.

I'll probably move the PA over to a secondary tonight. I'll update the thread with what I think of the 1 week sample.

 

[CodeRage]

Well, I think one week is really too soon to tell anything. I normally don't taste my beers at the one week mark. They usually go into a secondary and forgotten for 2 to 4 weeks.

My first impression is a very light slightly sweet caramel head followed by a punch of toast and biscuit and dry mouth feel with a touch of hop bitterness.
As far as color, well the turbidity throws it off a bit but it is a nice straw color, maybe a touch more on the orange side but it probably is too soon to tell.

Excuse my camera, it sucks...

So doing a bit of reading, when extract brewers have dumped L/DME in to the kettle and scorched the bottom, no one has reported a 'burnt' taste. In fact from what I can tell they all turned out to be fair brews. Though in these cases a slightly sweet beer may be expected because the scorching has created some unfermentable sugars. I don't believe I am experiencing this at all.

I used BMW's Recipe for Ed's Pale Ale if it make a difference.

 

[LKHA]

so as long as we keep good movment around the hd 5500 element we should be fine in a bk am I corret

 

[LKHA]

bump ..........

 

[The Pol]

Code Rage did a test recently with I think a 4500W HD element and he said there was no scorching...

That is all that I can say

 

[oldschool]

I thought people said that it scorched grains if you used them in the mash... am i wrong? I just use propane to boil and i have to clean off crap that has stuck to the bottom on every brew but, I don't notice it.

 

[The Pol]

In the BK I used a 5500W ULWD element and there was no scorch issues, nothing to clean off the element.

People often use the LWD elements with no issues whatsoever.

Some people claimed scorching the wort with HWD elements, but I have never seen it.

CodeRage now sayes he had luck with the HWD elements in the boil.

I forget our phone conversations LKHA, did you tell me why you chose the HWD elements?

 

[LKHA]

Did not know better at the time will look around for a different one for the bk

 

[LKHA]

first boil with the 5500 no scorching but some build up on the element. Boil at 65% in 40deg garage with no problem. 2nd keggel here now will try to find a ULWD element and use for boil and usw original for HLT.

 

[The Pol]

first boil with the 5500 no scorching but some build up on the element. Boil at 65% in 40deg garage with no problem. 2nd keggel here now will try to find a ULWD element and use for boil and usw original for HLT.

LKHA, did you try calling me tonight? It looked like your #, no message though

 

[slakwhere]

i just bought a HWD 2000W 120V element for a heat stick to aid in the boil of my gas stovetop. it should be ready tuesday for a brew day.

I'm an extract brewer at the moment, is there any way to test this stick for scorching before using it in a batch? are there any physical identifiers associated with scorching? residue on the heat stick? etc?

 

[LKHA]

yes i had not real important will try some other time

LKHA, did you try calling me tonight? It looked like your #, no message though

 

[HarkinBanks]

i just bought a HWD 2000W 120V element for a heat stick to aid in the boil of my gas stovetop. it should be ready tuesday for a brew day.

I'm an extract brewer at the moment, is there any way to test this stick for scorching before using it in a batch? are there any physical identifiers associated with scorching? residue on the heat stick? etc?

I use two of these elements in my CB20 system, no scorching, no problems, go for it.

 

[slakwhere]

used it yesterday for steeping and boil, and WOW this thing is awesome! didn't notice any burnt stuff on the element. boiled the wort better by itself than the gas range burner did. simply amazing!!

 

[kal]

Hey CR, slightly off topic: how is the element attached to the kettle? I was thinking about having a 1" NPT nut welded on, but yours doesn't quite look like that.

Thanks,

-Joe

Older thread, but if you're interested in some step-by-step instructions on using these 5500W ULWD elements in a weldless setup see what I put together here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-elements

Hope it helps!

For what it's worth I've also never had any issues with scorching using these 5500W elements.

Kal

 

[EarthBound]

Excellent work so far on your website! It really helps! Thank you!

 

[HHP]

CR: So, the conclusion here is that HD elements are no problem?

 

[pickles]

CR: So, the conclusion here is that HD elements are no problem?

None what so ever.

 

[kal]

One reason to use ULWD elements (the curvy one in the first post of this thread) that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that they won't break if fired up "dry" (not immersed in water).

When a regular element (like the straight silver coloured one in the first post of this thread) is fired up "dry" the element will pop fairly quickly (usually before you notice your mistake!) as there is no water to dissipate the heat. While nobody means to fire up an element by mistake, mistakes do happen. Using ULWD elements provides you with a little bit of insurance against these human errors.

Popping an element is about the last thing you want given that you've likely already milled your grain and have everything ready to go.

Kal

 

[flagoss]

How do you control the element to only 80% of its power ??

 

[kal]

How do you control the element to only 80% of its power ??

You use something to control it. There are many ways to do this. A PID with an SSR or a pulse-width-modulator (PWM) are two popular methods.

I suggest you spend some time reading in the Electric Brewing sub-forum here since your question is off-topic.

Kal