extract taste...every time.

[Soulshine2]

hey guys. i havent been on here in almost a year to post. i normally do all grain but after almost a year since last brew ,just made a red ale mostly extract kit from NB , there was a small portion of grain to steep . Nottingham high performance yeast. EVERY time i do extract , i get that telltale taste. its not the water or id taste it in AG batches. so , what possibly is it from?

 

[cubalz]

Old (or past its' prime), oxidized extract.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

hey guys. i havent been on here in almost a year to post. i normally do all grain but after almost a year since last brew ,just made a red ale mostly extract kit from NB , there was a small portion of grain to steep . Nottingham high performance yeast. EVERY time i do extract , i get that telltale taste. its not the water or id taste it in AG batches. so , what possibly is it from?

Liquid or dry extract? Age of the extract? Brand of the extract? Maker of the extract? Source water mineral content of the extract?

The book Brewing Engineering (2013-ish) has a section on how to take advantage of the different mineral content in different brands of DME/LME.

Consider brewing a basic malt forward beer two or three different ways: 1) with fresh Briess malt extract, 2) with fresh Munton malt extract, 3) all-grain. Do some "blind" side-by-side comparisons.

ETA: I'm assuming that initial water quality is good (as described in How to Brew, 4e, chapter 1).

 

[Soulshine2]

the kit wasnt old , a couple months. liquid extract with a couple pounds of Carared i think it was for color. Northern Brewer kit, Red Ale .
As i said , i doubt its the water . i do the same exact thing to my water with my AG brews and I never get this taste.

 

[Soulshine2]

Old (or past its' prime), oxidized extract.

doubt it. my wife picked it up for me in October. how can it oxidize in a couple months (no idea when it was packed) sealed in a can? if extract goes bad that fast , they need to do something else for preservation.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

i do the same exact thing to my water with my AG brews

Can you explain this further?

 

[Soulshine2]

Can you explain this further?

nothing fancy. 1/2 campden tablet / 7 gallons tap (city)water during strike heat. if its the water, why would it do this to an extract and not AG ?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

tap (city)water

What do you know about the mineral content of this water? Do you add additional brewing salts to your all-grain batches?

 

[cubalz]

doubt it. my wife picked it up for me in October. how can it oxidize in a couple months (no idea when it was packed) sealed in a can? if extract goes bad that fast , they need to do something else for preservation.

Do you have a date on the can label? I remember way back in the day when I still used extract that some of the cans sat in a warehouse for a long time before ever getting to the LHBS

 

[Velnerj]

It very well could be your water. Here's why: when you brew all grain you're starting with a clean slate. Whatever minerals are in the water that's what you get. With extract it's basically condensed wort including all the minerals needed for the beer/style. Only water evaporates and all the minerals are still intact. Your water is then adding to the minerals already there and may be causing off flavors. Most recommend using distilled or RO water when brewing extract for this reason.

Others have stated that they can taste a twang in extract brews, I'm not one of those but apparently it's a thing... What is the off flavor you taste?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

if extract goes bad that fast

Brewing with Extract: Tips from the Pros - Brew Your Own offers a tip for determining if the liquid extract is fresh.

 

[dmtaylor]

 

[Snuffy]

That red ale is just twangy. It will mellow as it ages a bit.

 

[Soulshine2]

It very well could be your water. Here's why: when you brew all grain you're starting with a clean slate. Whatever minerals are in the water that's what you get. With extract it's basically condensed wort including all the minerals needed for the beer/style. Only water evaporates and all the minerals are still intact. Your water is then adding to the minerals already there and may be causing off flavors. Most recommend using distilled or RO water when brewing extract for this reason.

Others have stated that they can taste a twang in extract brews, I'm not one of those but apparently it's a thing... What is the off flavor you taste?

i cant explain the taste or flavor but its a noticeable difference from an all grain. sweet or musty? is all i can think of . I'll have to try distilled next time , i have 2 more extract kits . I guess i never considered minerals concentrated in the kits .

 

[Soulshine2]

That red ale is just twangy. It will mellow as it ages a bit.

youve made this one?

 

[Soulshine2]

Do you have a date on the can label? I remember way back in the day when I still used extract that some of the cans sat in a warehouse for a long time before ever getting to the LHBS

i dont have the can but i have the box i think . ill have to look.

 

[Soulshine2]

What do you know about the mineral content of this water? Do you add additional brewing salts to your all-grain batches?

i got a breakdown last year. new ones come out in april . i'll have to see what it is . I dont normally add anything but a 1/2 campden. Like i said, i normally do AG brews . I hardly ever do extracts just because of this exact issue i have with them. i just cant seem to nail it down or eliminate it. but i have both a kolsch and a weizen extract kit to brew and id like them to not have this problem.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

i have both a kolsch and a weizen extract kit to brew and id like them to not have this problem.

You mentioned in #14 that you'll try distilled water. That's a good next step.

If that doesn't work, check out what I mentioned in #3 - different brands of extract have different source water, so one brand may be better for the type of beer your want to brew. I've brewed with a couple of different brands of DME and found the differences to be noticable.

 

[Snuffy]

youve made this one?

The Irish red ale extract kit? Sure. I’ve brewed it extract, mini mash and all grain. I think mm was best. I used to toss one of those on the tab to reach free shipping sometimes cause they’re relatively cheap. Not positive they all came from NB. The kits with extract can have a kind of sorghum wang to them early on. 3 or 4 weeks in the bottle and it smoothes right out.

 

[IslandLizard]

Much has been covered already.
A few more thoughts:

Are you sure you're not scorching the (liquid) extract when adding? Especially LME drops to the bottom and just sticks there, unless you scrape the bottom with a spoon or paddle, and stir it well until all is dissolved.
Also turn the heat off while adding and stirring until it's all dissolved. Then resume the boil.
DME does not have that problem, it floats.

How long are you boiling the extract, esp. the LME?
Since you do all grain normally, I reckon you do full volume boils with your extract too? Or partial boils with top up.

Steeping grains. Watch the steeping temp, I wouldn't go much above 155F (160F tops), but instructions may tell you 170F.
Do you know the pH of your steeping water?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

if [liquid] extract goes bad that fast , they need to do something else for preservation.

Dry malt extract.

Storing LME in the fridge (or freezer) is mentioned occasionally by people who buy kits on sale and store the ingredients for future use.

One of the "similar threads" (below) mentioned this ...

Basic Brewing Radio™
August 25, 2005 - Making Malt Extract with Bob Hansen
We continue our talk with Bob Hansen of Briess Malt & Ingredients Company as he explains how malt extract is made. Also, Bob gives us tips on buying extract and keeping it fresh. [....]

... which includes some "troubleshooting" informaiton starting at about about 16::00. Suggested off/unexpected flavors from LME aging in storage include molasses and licorice (at about 19:00).

Concentrated boils and over-mineralization could be additional sources of unexpected (and undesired) flavors that might be hard to explain.

I'll mention How to Brew, 4e (chapter 1) again as a good single source for a "poka-yoke"-ed extract brewing process that prevents concentrated boils, over-mineralization, and other problems.

@dmtaylor 's "Excellent Extract Beers" is an excellent checklist to use with existing kit instructions.

 

[Soulshine2]

The Irish red ale extract kit? Sure. I’ve brewed it extract, mini mash and all grain. I think mm was best. I used to toss one of those on the tab to reach free shipping sometimes cause they’re relatively cheap. Not positive they all came from NB. The kits with extract can have a kind of sorghum wang to them early on. 3 or 4 weeks in the bottle and it smoothes right out.

yes! the sorghum wang. ok, i'll let them rest another month and try again.

 

[Soulshine2]

Much has been covered already.
A few more thoughts:

Are you sure you're not scorching the (liquid) extract when adding? Especially LME drops to the bottom and just sticks there, unless you scrape the bottom with a spoon or paddle, and stir it well until all is dissolved.
Also turn the heat off while adding and stirring until it's all dissolved. Then resume the boil.
DME does not have that problem, it floats.

How long are you boiling the extract, esp. the LME?
Since you do all grain normally, I reckon you do full volume boils with your extract too? Or partial boils with top up.

Steeping grains. Watch the steeping temp, I wouldn't go much above 155F (160F tops), but instructions may tell you 170F.
Do you know the pH of your steeping water?

nope, i stirred constantly .i turned off the heat while i added it .
i boiled according to the instructions. steeped to instructions too. 153* ,for whatever the time was, to the letter...
pH , i do not know . i dont normally check it .

 

[IslandLizard]

Is there a date stamped on the cans of LME that come with the kits? Are they labeled cans (Briess) or filled from bulk?
NB must have a large turnover, I'd doubt there's a ton of extract sitting around for very long getting old, but it's worth checking.

If your water has "higher alkalinity" (and thus higher pH, above 5.8) there's a (small) chance that steeping grains can extract some tannins from the husk material, while higher steeping temps (above 155-160F) could increase that. That could result in some astringency in the resulting beer. But it's a small amount of grain, so the tannin contribution would be small too.

Extract twang has been addressed many times before, and AFAIK only in reference to LMEs, not DMEs. Something tangible must exist, it's not just you.

The strangest thing is, one would expect LME to actually taste better than DME since it's less processed. From what I understand DME is produced from LME in a subsequent process. Briess used to have a process schematic on their site that points to that. Now it's very likely, and makes most sense, DME is produced directly after the concentration to LME, not after being stored for a few weeks first. Storage of LME can very well be the issue of the unwanted difference in flavor between the two. We probably all know that old LME does not make good beer. But can even the freshest LME straight from the wort concentrator make beer as good as DME or AG?

Or DME is produced from LME in an earlier or different stage, not necessarily from the thick syrup we're familiar with. In that case the super concentration stage could also be a cause of the change in flavor. Then time (age) only makes it more prominent.

Note:
Wort concentration is achieved through vacuum evaporation, and for process efficiency sake it's likely that heat is applied, but to what temps?

These graphs and calculator are for plain (distilled) water, not a sugary solution for which boiling temps are higher:
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-evacuation-pressure-temperature-d_1686.html

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

http://blog.brewingwithbriess.com/secrets-to-keeping-your-liquid-extracts-fresh/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

FWIW, there's a followup to the Aug 25, 2005 BBR podcast here:

November 17, 2005 - Hard Beers and Extract Advice
Chris Colby from Brew Your Own magazine gives us his top ten list of difficult beers to brew at home. Also, Bob Hansen from Briess Malt and Ingredients Company gives us tips on getting the most out of an extract brew.

 

[GrogNerd]

haven't brewed in a while, but my last couple batches were all extract & NONE had that extract twang. NONE of my HB club buddies, including several BJCP judges could even tell they were extract batches

the extract has to be FRESH! FRESH! FRESH!

I used DME exclusively & ALWAYS the EXTRA LIGHT version. no matter the supply store, extra light DME is always the biggest seller, turnover is high, so it's almost always FRESH! FRESH! FRESH!

then rely on crystal/caramel & specialty/steeping malts to get to the color you want

 

[Pappers_]

i cant explain the taste or flavor but its a noticeable difference from an all grain. sweet or musty? is all i can think of . I'll have to try distilled next time , i have 2 more extract kits . I guess i never considered minerals concentrated in the kits .

I would share your beer with someone who has worked to develop their palate, like a bjcp judge. If you're part of a club, you probably know one or two. If not, enter it in a competition to get the feedback. Get a couple of other opinions on what the off-flavor is that is bothering you.

 

[IslandLizard]

my last couple batches were all extract & NONE had that extract twang. NONE of my HB club buddies, including several BJCP judges could even tell they were extract batches

But, but... that's because you're using DME !
The times we hear about perceived extract sensations and twang is when brewers use LME.
As others also said, the freshness of the LME may play a big role in that.

Before finally going all grain in 2013, I switched from brewing with DME to LME for about a year.
Of the 3 varieties that were available at my LHBS, I only used the lightest one: Golden Light LME. It was dispensed in front of me, into a doubled up, thick plastic bag, from 30 gallon (?) blue plastic drums. I'm not sure how fresh the stuff was, but they were selling a lot of it. I never noticed anything offensive about it, the beers were on par with the DME versions I had brewed before, and arguably better as I became a better brewer.

 

[derekp83]

Have you tried only adding most of the extract to your kettle at the end of the boil?

 

[Soulshine2]

i guess im wasting my time with these LME kits then, imo they(LME kits) all taste the same. i havent looked at the dates of manufacture but my wife bought them in October and ive been busy working to the point i have no time to brew . i'll go back to all grain when i do . I'm not about to waste my time searching for a beer judge .
Shame, she was all excited when she got them for me and she'll be disappointed that they are "old" .

 

[Soulshine2]

Have you tried only adding most of the extract to your kettle at the end of the boil?

i followed the instructions as per the kit. temps, times, to the letter. these things never come out right . i dont know why they keep selling them if they go bad that quickly.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

i dont know why they keep selling them if they go bad that quickly.

Have you tried brewing the kits with mineral free water?

 

[dmtaylor]

This does sound way too much like a stale LME problem. I agree with others, use distilled or RO water from now on. You can reduce the extract twang further by reducing the amount of LME and replacing with plain table sugar or DME instead, maybe steep a little extra specialty malts to help cover it up, or even consider a partial mash to keep LME out entirely.

Then maybe just save the LME to use for yeast starters only. I have some old LME that I use for yeast starters occasionally. If you decant the liquid out of it, you can still use the yeast sediment without much perceptible harm in any brew. That way, the LME is not a complete waste.

 

[IslandLizard]

,just made a red ale mostly extract kit from NB

i havent looked at the dates of manufacture but my wife bought them in October

Northern Brewer has one of the most liberal "return" policies you can imagine. Contact them (or have your wife do it), tell them you followed the directions to a T and the beer tastes like butt. See if they will send you new kits. You may not even need the order number.

From what it looks, their LME is repackaged or prepackaged from bulk LME into their own containers. Midwest even has the same jugs and labels.
It's very possible they have Briess fill them, or some other 3rd party company. Something could have gone wrong...

The kit instructions tell you to boil all the extract for 60' with the bittering hops. That's not necessary, nowadays it's recommended boiling only half the extract (or even less) then adding the balance at or near flameout. Even more so when doing partial boils with top up in the fermenter. It reduces caramelization and possible scorching.

 

[IslandLizard]

i dont know why they keep selling them if they go bad that quickly.

I hate to say it again...
But much of extract kit brewing is more illusion than good beer. How many kits are sold and how many buy a 2nd or a 3rd?
Not saying one can't brew good beer from extract, but ingredients and process make all the difference.

Especially the no-boil kits using pre-hopped extract are more illusion than beer. If you've ever smelled a pre-hopped extract, especially an older one, you'd understand. Look at all the kit pages full of (plastic) cans of (pre-hopped) LME in a plethora of styles each showing a luscious glass of beer on the front and some raw ingredients in the background. Then place a glass of beer produced from that can/kit right next to it, and see if there's any resemblance. Yeah...

After taking a sip, there's rarely even need to compare the looks and taste of a glass of your homebrew with a glass of a representative commercial beer of the same style bought from your local beer store. In your case, a Killian Red.

In order of potential quality and outcome:
All Grain >> Extract + steeping grains + hops >>> Pre-hopped extract + marginal "brew enhancers" (e.g. Mr. Beer)

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

 

[Pappers_]

I'm not about to waste my time searching for a beer judge

I guess I've been told off LOL

Here's the schedule of competitions, where your beer would be evaluated by two judges, to help you figure out what is really going on with your beer, to keep you from wasting your time

For some balance to the avalanche of opinions above - there are excellent beers made all the time with extract. Gold medal winning beers. One of the best NEIPAs, commercial or homebrew, I've had was an extract beer, for example, and a friend makes a Cream Ale with extract that is delightful. Extract beers have won medals at the National Homebrew Competition. It is possible to make outstanding beers with extract.

So, your problem could be old (by which we mean oxidized) liquid extract, but it could be myriad other parts of your brewing process. Since you can't describe the flavor that is bothering you, its hard to offer helpful advice.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

More ideas on how to store ingredients:

Extract kits - If you don't plan to brew immediately, break up and store the components of extract kits separately, as per below.

https://www.reddit.com/r/homebrewing/wiki/ingredients/storage

 

[kartracer2]

Thoughts from an extract brewer;
I think it would be interesting to buy a beer "Kit" in a box and then also buy the exact same as individual ingredients. Then check for dates on said products, brew side by side, might tell us a lot, maybe nothing. That said, I'm sure the big outfits know how DME, hops etc ages. They probably do the best they can to insure even the box kits don't gather too much dust. Some places even claim they make their kits only when ordered.
I haven't seen anyone on HBT that claims to works at (or did) one of these places. Probably is but they don't dare say that they do, the "incoming rounds" would be huge I'm sure.
Also I smoke so I'm sure I miss some flavors that non smokers would call glaring faults.
I know that there is little actual substance in this post Some times I just rattle on,,,
Cheers,
Joel B.