Extract Tang

[dustinthompson85]

I am wondering if anyone have ever noticed or experienced an certain flavor with extract beer that goes away when moving to all grain. I called it a "tang" and I seemed to lessen with each sip. I've done two batches of all grain and not noticed that flavor. Any ideas as to what could cause an extract tang? Could this just be in my head? Is there anyone else iut there that has noticed this before?

 

[j1n]

Prob off flavors, not from the extract though but fermentation.

what temps you ferment at and what yeast?

also do you ensure good pitch rates?

 

[lumpher]

i definitely notice the extract twang with lme. some people taste it, some don't. i've heard it only comes from old lme, but old, fresh, whatever, i can still taste.

 

[Sailingeric]

Be careful of not scorching your extract. That could cause some twang.

 

[shortyz]

i add most of my LME at flameout. usually partial mash

 

[BigJack]

For me, I only taste it with old LME. Stick w/ DME, add late in the boil, and steep a little fresh grain for good measure.

 

[schematix]

Switch to all grain and the problem goes way. Granted there are 20 new problems, but your beer will still taste better.

Oh, and brewing with extract isn't really brewing. It's like heating up a can of soup in the microwave and saying you cooked it. Sure you did. Baby steps are important though at first.

 

[Qhrumphf]

"Extract twang" is a myth, and is a result of either using poor process, or poor ingredients. Often times people thing it goes away with all-grain because as they transition they've become better brewers, and procedural flaws that may have existed early on may go away, leading to a false assumption that it was the extract's fault.

However, "twang" from extract can come from a couple places that aren't implicitly a result of extract in and of itself, but rather misuse of it, and both more related to LME than DME. People have already mentioned them. One is old extract, which just like using old grains with all-grain brewing, will lead to off-flavors. And there's a lot of really old extract floating around out there. The other is boiling the LME for 60 minutes rather than adding as a late addition. I don't remember the exact process, but I recall LME basically being super-condensed down wort (as opposed to near fully dehydrated wort in the form of DME). It's basically already been boiled substantially and you're just boiling it more. If you've ever done a 4 or 5 hour boil, you'll know that it develops a lot of flavor in the process. That's good for some styles (Scottish Ales for example), but definitely not right for everything. So basically, I'd always use LME as a late addition, and make damned sure it's fresh. And then as long as your other key processes (pitching rate, aeration, sanitation, temp control) are done properly, you should be good to go. Boom, no extract twang.

 

[andrewmaixner]

It's probably a culmination of things, possibly including scorched extract, lack of fermentation temperature control, water quality/chlorine, etc.

I've had very good extract brews from experienced brewers, and I've had poor to awful ones also from people who only get into it halfway and don't go the extra mile with understanding and implementing their processes. I have had only one poor quality extract brew personally, but that was probably mostly an issue of completely failing at translating an AG to extract recipe in my early stages (it was still drinkable, but as a mild barleywine instead of an IIPA)

I have a extract brew right now that I did while my mash was going, and I properly controlled the water, bitterness, ferm temp, etc -- based on sampling, it is actually in the 'ok to good' range at 9 days, and if I wanted to rush the clearing with some chitosan/kielsol I could have it on tap in 10 -- no open taps though

 

[Ariza-Poet]

Switch to all grain and the problem goes way. Granted there are 20 new problems, but your beer will still taste better.

Oh, and brewing with extract isn't really brewing. It's like heating up a can of soup in the microwave and saying you cooked it. Sure you did. Baby steps are important though at first.

ouch!!! that hurt my heart haha

i've only "brewed" two extract kits and probably am a long way off from
real brewing but I guess i have to agree with that statement.

 

[cantrell00]

"Extract twang" is a myth, and is a result of either using poor process, or poor ingredients. Often times people thing it goes away with all-grain because as they transition they've become better brewers, and procedural flaws that may have existed early on may go away, leading to a false assumption that it was the extract's fault.

However, "twang" from extract can come from a couple places that aren't implicitly a result of extract in and of itself, but rather misuse of it, and both more related to LME than DME. People have already mentioned them. One is old extract, which just like using old grains with all-grain brewing, will lead to off-flavors. And there's a lot of really old extract floating around out there. The other is boiling the LME for 60 minutes rather than adding as a late addition. I don't remember the exact process, but I recall LME basically being super-condensed down wort (as opposed to near fully dehydrated wort in the form of DME). It's basically already been boiled substantially and you're just boiling it more. If you've ever done a 4 or 5 hour boil, you'll know that it develops a lot of flavor in the process. That's good for some styles (Scottish Ales for example), but definitely not right for everything. So basically, I'd always use LME as a late addition, and make damned sure it's fresh. And then as long as your other key processes (pitching rate, aeration, sanitation, temp control) are done properly, you should be good to go. Boom, no extract twang.

Not to create a pissing match here but I have brewed extracts in exactly the scenarios you described above & still tasted the extract twang as described.

It's not a myth.

 

[bucketnative]

I am wondering if anyone have ever noticed or experienced an certain flavor with extract beer that goes away when moving to all grain.

I am bottling my first all-grain brew tonight. This was one of the reasons that I tried moving to all-grain. I always taste a "tang" in my extract brews... everything from stouts to wits. This includes my three-yearforay into homebrewing that I went through about 10 years ago, and my current two-year stretch. I brought in a bottle of wit to my LHBS and they said that they didn't taste anything weird, that it must be something to which I am sensitive. I don't taste it in commercial beer, even those that are bottle-conditioned. I'll report back once this all-grain batch is carbed and aged. I am hoping that the "tang" is gone with my move to all-grain.

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

Oh, and brewing with extract isn't really brewing. It's like heating up a can of soup in the microwave and saying you cooked it. Sure you did. Baby steps are important though at first.

Thats nonsense. Making wort is just a small part of making beer. Yeast and fermentation management, as well as wort and beer handling processes are probably much more important to making good beer. Sure, if your wort tastes like sweaty balls you don't stand a chance. But no matter how good the wort is, without the correct yeast and fermentation handling, you havent brewed anything except drain cleaner. My 2c...

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

The fervor and contempt that AG brewers defend the way they brew beer really surprises me as a new brewer. I can see the attraction to brewing AG, but to be so militant about it seems strange to me. After reading Charlie's book, The Complete Joy of Homebrewing, I was very attracted to the do it your way aspect of the hobby that he espoused. The only thing he said more often then, "brewing with extract does not compromise the taste of your beer" was "Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew".

 

[MaxStout]

The fervor and contempt that AG brewers defend the way they brew beer really surprises me as a new brewer. I can see the attraction to brewing AG, but to be so militant about it seems strange to me. After reading Charlie's book, The Complete Joy of Homebrewing, I was very attracted to the do it your way aspect of the hobby that he espoused. The only thing he said more often then, "brewing with extract does not compromise the taste of your beer" was "Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew".

There have been numerous extract brews that have won competitions. You can brew very good beer with it. People move to AG to have more choices and more control over their processes. And yes, some AG brewers make crappy beer.

As for the extract "twang," it could be just the placebo effect. If you know you're drinking an extract brew, you may sense the taste. The brain plays tricks.

 

[dmtaylor]

The twang is very real, is not a myth, and is very difficult to deal with. Extract brewing is an art that few will master before moving on to all-grain. If you want a bit of help, check this out, it gives you some key things to do and not to do to avoid the very real twang. It is true that not every extract beer has the twang... but it is also true that almost every extract beer has it.

Hope this helps.... if you like you can save image, paste into a Word document in landscape, print it out.

 

[Weezy]

Old extract,
Using tap water instead of RO or distilled,
Scorching of extract.

Take your pick.

And why should anyone take anyone seriously if they can't describe an off flavor better than "twang"? Is it bitter? Salty? Minerally? Iron? Tart? What?
http://www.draftmag.com/tastingterms/

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

So funny, I did some research on the guy who's chart you pasted in your post. After deciding that the chart wasn't a bunch of nutjob bologna, I noticed that you are in fact the nutjob!? Hello Dave, thanks for weighing in. I have based on others recommendations accidentally followed the practices that you recommend. I will not based on information from your chart attempt to replicate Burton On Trent water when brewing my next IPA. Thanks.

 

[brewcat]

I wonder if this twang is just uncontrolled fermentation temps.

 

[dmtaylor]

So funny, I did some research on the guy who's chart you pasted in your post. After deciding that the chart wasn't a bunch of nutjob bologna, I noticed that you are in fact the nutjob!? Hello Dave, thanks for weighing in. I have based on others recommendations accidentally followed the practices that you recommend. I will not based on information from your chart attempt to replicate Burton On Trent water when brewing my next IPA. Thanks.

Is this a compliment? At any rate, I won't argue: I am, in fact, a nutjob.

 

[WrQth]

I wonder if this twang is just uncontrolled fermentation temps.

But then wouldn't most everyone who has tasted it taste the twang?

I remember an experiment a junior high school teacher had the students perform which was to taste a paper sample that had a chemical on it which had a bitter/sour flavor but not everyone tasted it. It was theorized that this ability to taste it was linked to when humans were nomadic and ate what they could find and anything bitter/sour was typically not safe to eat and over time humans didn't need the ability but it still persists in some.

 

[dmtaylor]

I wonder if this twang is just uncontrolled fermentation temps.

I do think that is a part of it as well. Newbie novice kind of stuff that gets better once you learn the importance of fermentation temperature control, etc. But not always, not entirely. There are a lot of variables that go into the twang, and I believe that the use of the extract itself, along with the freshness and storage conditions, and the particular manufacturer, all play significant roles that cannot be totally eliminated. Minimized, but not eliminated, unless you can source some really fresh extract and/or just get lucky.

 

[kombat]

Not to create a pissing match here but I have brewed extracts in exactly the scenarios you described above & still tasted the extract twang as described.

It's not a myth.

Ditto.

 

[kombat]

I remember an experiment a junior high school teacher had the students perform which was to taste a paper sample that had a chemical on it which had a bitter/sour flavor but not everyone tasted it. It was theorized that this ability to taste it was linked to when humans were nomadic and ate what they could find and anything bitter/sour was typically not safe to eat and over time humans didn't need the ability but it still persists in some.

Taste is definitely genetically-linked. I am (among other things) a cake decorator. Early on in my training, I made many sample cakes for my course training. I made one with a Yin/Yang symbol on the top, with half of it in red icing and half of it in white. My wife and all of her siblings found the red portion unpalatably bitter, while it tasted just fine to me.

I later learned that the particular chemical they use to make the dye red can taste excessively bitter to certain people with a particular genetic mutation. I don't have that mutation. My wife and all of her siblings do. I also learned that it's such a common mutation that the company that produces the icing dyes (Wilton) makes a separate red dye called "No-Taste Red," which begs the question, why do they bother still making the other one at all? Why not only make the "No-Taste" one? Never got a satisfactory answer to that one, but from then on, I only ever bought the "No-Taste" version when my cake design called for any red icing.

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

Maybe you make really delicious beer.

I only brew all grain but have nothing against extract...

 

[BrewMeister49]

There is absolutely an extract "tang". Thats even how I describe it. Nothing to do with old, fresh or even the brewing process. I got it, tasted it and really did not like it. It all disappeared when I switched to AG. But I can tell from the first sip whether its extract or not.

 

[sudbuddy]

Oh, and brewing with extract isn't really brewing. It's like heating up a can of soup in the microwave and saying you cooked it. Sure you did. Baby steps are important though at first.

Come on man, the guy is asking for advice. Don't insult him. Maybe you should go back to Reddit, that seems like a better environment for you.

 

[Qhrumphf]

The twang is very real, is not a myth, and is very difficult to deal with. Extract brewing is an art that few will master before moving on to all-grain. If you want a bit of help, check this out, it gives you some key things to do and not to do to avoid the very real twang. It is true that not every extract beer has the twang... but it is also true that almost every extract beer has it.

The bold part is the important part. I have brewed extract beers without "twang", I've tasted other folks extract beers without "twang". I've judged a hell of a lot of beers in competition, and tasted a hell of a lot.of beers at club meetings over the years, and never have I ONCE encountered a "twang" that could not be explained by user error. In fact, i can't define what this alleged twang is, because I still don't know.

The fact that you admit not all extract beers get "twang" proves that it is not systemic to extract.

 

[cantrell00]

The bold part is the important part. I have brewed extract beers without "twang", I've tasted other folks extract beers without "twang". I've judged a hell of a lot of beers in competition, and tasted a hell of a lot.of beers at club meetings over the years, and never have I ONCE encountered a "twang" that could not be explained by user error. In fact, i can't define what this alleged twang is, because I still don't know.

The fact that you admit not all extract beers get "twang" proves that it is not systemic to extract.

You'd know if you tasted it. It is unmistakable & every time I have tasted this odd flavor, it was specific to extract beer.

 

[dmtaylor]

I agree with Cantrell. I know it when I taste it. Call me a super-taster if you like. Red coloring tastes like poison to me.

The fact that it occurs never with all-grain and always with extract indicates that it comes somehow somewhere from the extract. The most novice all-grain brewer will never ever get the twang. However, even some of the better extract brewers experience the twang from time to time. It's real. What it is and why has not yet been pinned down to any one or two variables. But it will. In the next 5 to 10 years, we will know.

Where's Marshall Schott when you need a good xbmt...