Extract Exchanges

[MT2sum]

Every so often, I come across a recipe that includes extracts that I would like to try out. Since I don't brew recipes @ 5 gal becuz of space constraints, I'd like to try it out with a 1 gal, I would like to convert them to all-grain and then scale them to 1 gal.

I have the formulas for the conversions,
(To go from LME to grain, multiply by 1.750 –--i.e 4 lb LME x 1.75 = 7 lb grain
To go from DME to grain, multiply by 1.667 –--i.e. 4 lb DME x 1.667 = 6.668 lb grain.),
but I don't know what grains to use for the different types of extracts.

1.) In General; what malt substitutions would I make for Light DME/LME, Amber DME/LME, Dark DME/LME, Golden DME/LME when converting from extracts to grains.

2.) Also, I can't find any reference to "Hollander Dutch dark extract" except in a recipe from Bridgeview Beer and Wine in Oregon City, OR. Anyone know what it is, is it just an in-house extract or does it have chocolate in it, etc. ("Dutch dark" makes me think of Dutch chocolate )

Any advice, opinions, helpful hints, etc. will be appreciated.

 

[jtdrowns]

I always use this:

1 lb of grain = 0.75 lbs of LME = 0.6 lbs of DME.

And I only substitute light extract with 2-row. I think it is difficult to accurately substitute darker extracts with grain, as they could consist of many different malts which may vary from the different malting companies.

That's one reason I prefer all-grain over extract, you have more freedom and creativity with making a recipe.

 

[MT2sum]

I always use this:

1 lb of grain = 0.75 lbs of LME = 0.6 lbs of DME.

Pretty much what I do now ..... Thanks

And I only substitute light extract with 2-row.

OK, I was wondering about that as well as the 'extra light, etc. Thanks.

I think it is difficult to accurately substitute darker extracts with grain, as they could consist of many different malts which may vary from the different malting companies.

Yeah, I was kinda hoping there might be some formula, such as 70% this and 10 % that, etc. I was reading on the BYO site, and they were saying that you could check the mfg websites and very often you would get that kind of breakdown (for creating clones), but I haven't seen anything on the very few mfg sites that I can find I did see some helpful breakdowns on extracts on the NB site for certain brands, but that's about the best I've been able to come up with other than going to Brewtoad and trying to get some kind of decent grain substitution examples by plugging in the extracts and asking for conversion to all-grain - Thanks

That's one reason I prefer all-grain over extract, you have more freedom and creativity with making a recipe.

I'm with you there!

 

[JohnSand]

I don't know how well it works, but I run the grain recipe and the extract recipe though a recipe calculator. Then make adjustments for gravity and SRM until they match. I use Brewer's Friend. It makes good beer, but I've never done a side by side comparison.

 

[MT2sum]

I don't know how well it works, but I run the grain recipe and the extract recipe though a recipe calculator. Then make adjustments for gravity and SRM until they match. I use Brewer's Friend. It makes good beer, but I've never done a side by side comparison.

Yeah, I use BrewTarget (free download), and I'll give that a try .... but I'm not real good with computers, so all I can do is come close (hopefully).
This is what I've come up with so far, I'm not really good with extracts, I started out years back doing all-grains and have only done extracts when given a can or two (usually out-dated, the last two were 10 years old!), but I NEVER buy them.
I've read that most extracts are about 60:40 with the 60% being the base malt, but what should the ideal percentage of specialty grain(s) be within the 40% when there are more than one? If you happen to have a good idea, or have been having great success with your blends, I'd appreciate any input.
This is what I've been able to find out from some websites ….. not much help in a few cases ….

Alexander's Pale Malt Syrup 4 lbs. - Made from 100% 2-row Klages barley, this malt syrup is an excellent base for any beer style.
Alexander's Pale Malt Syrup Kicker 1.4 lbs. Made from 100% 2-row Klages barley, this malt syrup is an excellent base for any beer style.
Alexander's Wheat Malt Syrup 4 lbs. A 60-40 blend of wheat and pale malt, ideal for wheat beers.

Fermenter's Favorites™ Briess Pilsen Light DME Extremely pale dried malt extract made from base malt and Carapils. Malty flavor and light color make it ideal for any pale style.
Fermenter's Favorites™ Briess Sparkling Amber DME
SKU: U018
Fermenter's Favorites™ Briess Traditional Dark DME
A proprietary blend of base, Munich, and 60L crystal malts. Amber color and malty flavor with caramelly overtones.
SKU: U019
Fermenter's Favorites™ Briess Bavarian Wheat DME
A proprietary blend of base, Munich, 60L crystal, and black malt. Intense flavor and dark color.
SKU: U015

Briess Organic Light DME
A blend of wheat and pale malt with a neutral, malty flavor - ideal for wheat beers.
SKU: U026
This is a certified organic 100% malted barley extract suitable as a base malt for any kind of beer. It is pale in color (2 - 6° L) with a malty flavor.

Muntons range of canned malt extracts for the home beer making market are made exclusively from the finest English 2 row barley. They are produced by the aqueous extraction of sugars from malted barley and are subsequently concentrated into a viscous syrup. They are a valuable source of fermentable sugars, provide natural colouring and impart their traditional rich malty flavour.
Our hopped varieties are blended with choicest English hops selected for their aromatic and bittering characteristics. There is no finer malt extract available at any price.
Extra Light Canned Malt Extract
Made from the lightest available lager malt, processed carefully with the gentlest heat necessary to ensure that the resultant extract is the lightest possible from 100% malt.
Light Canned Malt Extract
Selected English lager malt is used to produce this fine consistent light malt extract.
Amber Canned Malt Extract
Made from a blend of pale and crystal malts this product provides the ideal building block for Ale and Bitter style beers.
Dark Canned Malt Extract
Chocolate malt, crystal malt and pale malt is used in the manufacture of Muntons dark malt extract. Ideal for recipes designed to brew Milds, porters and Stouts.
Hopped Light Malt Extract
This lager malt derived malt extract is carefully balanced with choice English hops for use as the basis of any good beer recipe. Simple to adapt to achieve a wide range of beers.
Hopped Amber Malt Extract
Made from a blend of pale and crystal malts, this balanced malt extract is ideal for Bitter and Ale style beers.
Hopped Dark Malt Extract
Chocolate malt, crystal malt and pale malt is used in the manufacture of Muntons hopped dark malt extract. The perfect building block for dark beer styles.
Muntons DME Wheat
SKU: U014
English DME made with pale malt and wheat. Use for English summer ales, wheat beers, or to add body to low-gravity bitter and mild.
Muntons DME Dark
SKU: U013
Deeply colored English malt extract, ferments dry with a malty flavor. Good for porters, stout, and brown ales.
Muntons DME Amber
SKU: U012
Amber colored English dry malt extract, ferments dry with a malty flavor. Good for Scottish ales, ESB, milds, and brown ales.
Muntons DME Light
SKU: U011
Light-colored English DME, a bit darker than Extra-Light. Use for pale ale, IPA, and bitter.
Muntons DME Extra Light
SKU: U010
Palest color English DME in the Munton's line. Ferments very dry. Use for pale ale, English summer ale, and bitter.


Maillard Malts™ Pilsen Malt Extract Syrup is a pale-colored malt syrup made from pilsner malt and Carapils. It provides an excellent base for all pale beer styles.
Maillard Malts™ is your source for authentic, 100% English Maris Otter extract. This is the extract to use for any English- or American-style beer. Rich and malty, it will add a superior malt backbone to your finest ales.
Maillard Malts™ Gold Malt Extract Syrup is made from pale malt with a small amount of CaraPils, which results in a very light color and excellent head retention capabilities.
Maillard Malts™ Amber Malt Extract Syrup is composed of pale malt with caramel 60 for a grainy caramel sweetness and Munich malt for increased complexity and fullness.
Maillard Malts™ Munich Malt Extract Syrup is a 50/50 blend of pale and Munich malts. It produces a red-amber wort with an exceptional dense chewy-malty flavor.
Maillard Malts™ Dark malt syrup is a blend of pale malt with some caramel 60, Munich, and black malt.
Maillard Malts™ Wheat Malt Extract Syrup is a blend of wheat malt (65%) and pale malt (35%)). Perfect for both American and German styles of wheat beer.
Maillard Malts™ rye malt syrup has the spicy, earthy flavor of rye that makes classic Roggenbier, RyePAs, and more.
Maillard Malts™ Sorghum Extract Syrup Made from 100% white sorghum grain, this gluten-free syrup provides mild flavor and pale color to your home brewed beers.

Northern Brewer's Super Structure Malt Blend for IPA
This unique blend is specially-formulated from select American 2-row malt, English Maris Otter malt, and a light caramel malt.
Northern Brewer Organic Light Malt Syrup
This is a certified organic 100% malted barley extract suitable as a base malt for any kind of beer. It is pale in color (2 - 6° L) with a malty flavor.

So ........ I've been able to identify some of these blends, not the percentages, of course, but I'm working on it! :rockin:
I'm assuming that the light malts that say they're made with 100% of a grain (Klages, Maris Otter, Sorghum, etc.) are not mixed or blended with another, so that makes some of them easy if that's true!
Is there somewhere here or on another site, where I can get a better idea of what substitutions to use for extract recipes without using a recipe app?

 

[JohnSand]

I don't know for certain. In general, looking at recipes in magazines and books, it seems that light extract substitutes for two row. I found a link on another forum to a Brew Your Own article about extracts. It lists a lot of hopped kits, with descriptions, but also dry and liquid extracts.
http://byo.com/images/stories/extract chart.pdf
There it is. I don't make myself too crazy, I figure close is close enough.

 

[MT2sum]

THX a lot! I guess that's about as close as I'll ever get ..... a lot closer than I would have been w/o your help! I appreciate the link - d/l'ed!!
Now to see how to get it printed here at the Library

 

[JohnSand]

Happy to help. Brew on!

 

[MT2sum]

happy to help. Brew on!

 

[MT2sum]

I've been looking at a lot of mag (BYO, Zymurgy, etc.) and book recipes and the above formula for converting extract to grains (i.e. "multiply lbs of extract by 1.750 for LME & 1.667 for DME") doesn't work so well a lot of the time. In many cases, they are under-subbing the grains for the extract!

Case-in-point, for the clone recipe for Old Rasputin in the "250 Clones" from BYO, I used the figures above for a substitution and came up with 17.8 lb of 2-row, and they came up with 16 lb!

In a brew book I bought at a discount store (name withheld to protect the idiot that "proofread" the book!) it seemed that almost every recipe conversion was using different numbers! 3 of the recipes converted 4.5 lbs ofLiquid extract to 3 different amounts of 2-row - I back-figured one of them and they had multiplied the 4.5 lb of extract by 1.3333 to get something like 5.25 lb of grain - needless to say this book was a waste of money - but it seems somewhat irresponsible of the writers, proofreaders and publishers to put that kind of baloney out in public, newbies are going to make some horrible beers, and then they'll want to blame it on the homebrew shop or homebrewing, rather than going thru the trouble to research it and find out the lame-brained author didn't even check his figures before he put it to paper! Maybe he wrote it after tasting some of his own brews!

Rant Over .......

Just my 2 centavos ......

 

[JohnSand]

When in doubt, I use the higher grain amount, then top off to adjust gravity as necessary. But if I am within a few points, I leave it.
You are wise to check those recipes.

 

[MT2sum]

When in doubt, I use the higher grain amount, then top off to adjust gravity as necessary. But if I am within a few points, I leave it.
You are wise to check those recipes.

I've been reading Sam Calagione's "Extreme Brewing" book, and the above numbers don't work for the conversions between LME and DME! As well, the proofreader sold him short - I've found quite mis-steaks in wording, etc. I wonder if these publishers even hire a proofreader nowadays or if they just depend on spell-check instead to save money!
He's got some great recipes in there tho ..... Wish I lived closer to Delaware so I could try some of his brews. (Back in Montana now, not much in the way of craft beers let alone extreme brews available where I'm at LOL. I'll just have to make my own, I guess (Yipee!!). Love those homebrews.

 

[JohnSand]

Ironic that you should post this today. I was brewing an extract+grain batch. The first I've done that way for quite a while, necessary after cutting a tendon in my left little finger two weeks ago. No all grain 5 gallons for another month, but a 2.5 extract was quite manageable.

 

[chickypad]

I've been looking at a lot of mag (BYO, Zymurgy, etc.) and book recipes and the above formula for converting extract to grains (i.e. "multiply lbs of extract by 1.750 for LME & 1.667 for DME") doesn't work so well a lot of the time. In many cases, they are under-subbing the grains for the extract!

...

In a brew book I bought at a discount store (name withheld to protect the idiot that "proofread" the book!) it seemed that almost every recipe conversion was using different numbers! 3 of the recipes converted 4.5 lbs ofLiquid extract to 3 different amounts of 2-row - I back-figured one of them and they had multiplied the 4.5 lb of extract by 1.3333 to get something like 5.25 lb of grain - needless to say this book was a waste of money - but it seems somewhat irresponsible of the writers, proofreaders and publishers to put that kind of baloney out in public, newbies are going to make some horrible beers, and then they'll want to blame it on the homebrew shop or homebrewing, rather than going thru the trouble to research it and find out the lame-brained author didn't even check his figures before he put it to paper! Maybe he wrote it after tasting some of his own brews!

First off you converted your initial formula wrong. You said you are using :

1lb grain = .75 LME = .6 DME
reversed that means mulitply LME by 1.33 and DME by 1.66 to get the correct amount of grain.

It sounds like the book was using the common figure of 1.33. That formula only works though if the recipe was calculated for 75% efficiency. Slight variations in calculations I assume are due to differences in efficiency that the original recipes were based on.

 

[MT2sum]

First off you converted your initial formula wrong. You said you are using :

1lb grain = .75 LME = .6 DME
reversed that means mulitply LME by 1.33 and DME by 1.66 to get the correct amount of grain.

It sounds like the book was using the common figure of 1.33. That formula only works though if the recipe was calculated for 75% efficiency. Slight variations in calculations I assume are due to differences in efficiency that the original recipes were based on.

I multiply the LME by 1.750 and the DME by 1.667, just to be sure you read it right. Also, BYO uses a 65% efficiency - I wouldn't know how to adjust for that - If you've got the formula, I'd appreciate it. THX

 

[chickypad]

I multiply the LME by 1.750 and the DME by 1.667, just to be sure you read it right. Also, BYO uses a 65% efficiency - I wouldn't know how to adjust for that - If you've got the formula, I'd appreciate it. THX

This is the part that's wrong:

1 lb grain = .75 lb LME - divide both sides by .75:
1.33 lb grain = 1 lb LME

1 lb grain = .6 lb DME - divide both sides by .6:
1.67 lb grain = 1 lb DME

In other words take your LME and multiply by 1.33 to get equivalent grain. Take DME and multiply by 1.67 to get grain. If you think about it this makes much more sense. DME is more concentrated than LME, you need more grain for DME than LME lb for lb.

Now as mentioned this only works for 75 % efficiency, and assuming about 36 ppg for average grain. 36 x .75% = 27 ppg from grain. LME tends to be about 36 ppg and DME tends to be about 45.

At 65% efficiency one lb of grain would be 36 x .65 or about 23.4 ppg.
For LME you take 23.4/36 = .65 lb LME per lb grain
For DME 23.4/45 = .52 lb DME per lb grain

Or reversed, you multiply 1 lb LME by 1.54 to get grain, multiply DME by 1.92 to get grain.

 

[deanoaz]

I don't know for certain. In general, looking at recipes in magazines and books, it seems that light extract substitutes for two row. I found a link on another forum to a Brew Your Own article about extracts. It lists a lot of hopped kits, with descriptions, but also dry and liquid extracts.
http://byo.com/images/stories/extract chart.pdf
There it is. I don't make myself too crazy, I figure close is close enough.

As this newbie wades through all the knowledge bases out there for home brewing, I stumbled across this post of yours and the reference to the table of extracts. It is a great piece to contribute to my learning. Thanks!

 

[JohnSand]

Thank you. Reading here has improved my brewing, it will improve yours too. I'm glad I could provide a resource.

 

[MT2sum]

This is the part that's wrong:

1 lb grain = .75 lb LME - divide both sides by .75:
1.33 lb grain = 1 lb LME

1 lb grain = .6 lb DME - divide both sides by .6:
1.67 lb grain = 1 lb DME

In other words take your LME and multiply by 1.33 to get equivalent grain. Take DME and multiply by 1.67 to get grain. If you think about it this makes much more sense. DME is more concentrated than LME, you need more grain for DME than LME lb for lb.

Now as mentioned this only works for 75 % efficiency, and assuming about 36 ppg for average grain. 36 x .75% = 27 ppg from grain. LME tends to be about 36 ppg and DME tends to be about 45.

At 65% efficiency one lb of grain would be 36 x .65 or about 23.4 ppg.
For LME you take 23.4/36 = .65 lb LME per lb grain
For DME 23.4/45 = .52 lb DME per lb grain

Or reversed, you multiply 1 lb LME by 1.54 to get grain, multiply DME by 1.92 to get grain.

Thanks chickypad, (I've copied and pasted that to my docs) I don't have internet so it's some time between my questions and responses becuz it's 65 mile trip to the library in another town!

 

[chickypad]

Thanks chickypad, (I've copied and pasted that to my docs) I don't have internet so it's some time between my questions and responses becuz it's 65 mile trip to the library in another town!

Wow, I'm guessing the "LHBS" isn't so local for you.

 

[MT2sum]

Wow, I'm guessing the "LHBS" isn't so local for you.

No, you're right! The closest LHBS is 220 miles Round Trip!