Extract Brew + Steeping Grain = Too Sweet?

[jhlfrty]

So I just tapped my third IPA made from extract. The first 2 were kits from Midwest, the third was my own concoction. They all have a slightly different hop profile, but they all have one thing in common: they are way too sweet for my liking. This has masked the top flavors and made them all taste basically the same.

Aside from being either majority amber or gold LME (approx 9 lbs), the other common theme is some sort of steeping grain.

Is it possible that the steeping grain is adding more unfermentable sugar to the wort than you would want for a dry finish IPA?

Do other extract brewers have similar problems?

 

[DrWill]

So I just tapped my third IPA made from extract. The first 2 were kits from Midwest, the third was my own concoction. They all have a slightly different hop profile, but they all have one thing in common: they are way too sweet for my liking. This has masked the top flavors and made them all taste basically the same.

Aside from being either majority amber or gold LME (approx 9 lbs), the other common theme is some sort of steeping grain.

Is it possible that the steeping grain is adding more unfermentable sugar to the wort than you would want for a dry finish IPA?

Do other extract brewers have similar problems?

Too sweet beer is more often an under-attenuation issue than a recipe formulation issue. I would look at your yeast health and temperature control before looking at the recipe - my $.02.

 

[jhlfrty]

Good point. I will do some homework on measuring yeast health.

All 3 batches reached their intended FG. Unfortunately I don't have a temperature controlled environment to put them in for fermentation. I live in an apartment in the North East. So my air conditioner is on basically all the time to keep the internal temp no higher than 75 degrees

 

[DrWill]

Good point. I will do some homework on measuring yeast health.

All 3 batches reached their intended FG. Unfortunately I don't have a temperature controlled environment to put them in for fermentation. I live in an apartment in the North East. So my air conditioner is on basically all the time to keep the internal temp no higher than 75 degrees

Are you making starters and oxygenating? I found that those made the biggest difference in making sure that my beers attenuated properly. Once you've eliminated that as a variable, then you can look at things like recipe formulation, etc.

 

[jhlfrty]

I oxygenate with the "stir like crazy" method. I do not make starters though .. great thought for tomorrows brew though!

 

[TwoHeart]

So I just tapped my third IPA made from extract. The first 2 were kits from Midwest, the third was my own concoction. They all have a slightly different hop profile, but they all have one thing in common: they are way too sweet for my liking. This has masked the top flavors and made them all taste basically the same.

Aside from being either majority amber or gold LME (approx 9 lbs), the other common theme is some sort of steeping grain.

Is it possible that the steeping grain is adding more unfermentable sugar to the wort than you would want for a dry finish IPA?

Do other extract brewers have similar problems?

What type of steeping grains are you using, and how much?

Plus, you might want to go with a pilsen malt.

I do primarily extract brews and have only had this issue with either under attenuation, which doesn't sound like your problem... or my choice in steeping grains... I usually use the lightest extract and adjust the color and taste with steeping grains.

 

[madscientist451]

All 3 batches reached their intended FG. Unfortunately I don't have a temperature controlled environment to put them in for fermentation. I live in an apartment in the North East. So my air conditioner is on basically all the time to keep the internal temp no higher than 75 degrees

What temperature are you steeping and what specific grains are you using?
You can make good IPAs at home with kits using extract, but you can make really good or even exceptional IPAs if you go all grain, get a handle on your fermentation temperatures and manipulate your water chemistry.
If you can spare the room for a 5 gallon round cooler and a BIAB bag, you can go all grain, and control your sweetness by mash temperature.
Also, if you have room for a 24" x 24' cardboard box you can do temp. control in your apartment. Line the box with foam board insulation and use
1 and 2 liter frozen water bottles to keep it cold. If your apartment is 75, you can maintain a steady 60-65 by changing the ice every day.
Manipulating water chemistry is more advanced, don't worry about it until you get the brewing and fermentation end squared away. Cheers!

 

[unionrdr]

If your steeping grains contain too much crystal/caramel or specialty malts, it'll retain some sweetness. Even when fully attenuated, since they contain more long-chain sugars the yeast can't metabolize.

 

[GrogNerd]

remember: extracts are made with some crystal/caramel, so you might want to back off on the additional, at least in your own recipe

I use the lightest possible extract and use the steeping grains to adjust for color. the lighter extract sells more, better turnaround = fresher product. and that is KEY

the kits + fact you hit target FG is interesting. are these kits clones of something you're familiar with? & yours is sweet compared to the original?

sometimes high alcohol can give you the impression of sweet, or intensify the sweetness. the few high gravity beers I've brewed have been like that. some aging helped smooth that out a bit

 

[Yooper]

The biggest issue with too-sweet extract beers (especially IPAs) aren't the recipe or the steeping grains usually. The issue comes from doing a partial boil with a beer with higher amounts of hops (IBUs).

Here's why. Say you are boiling 2.5 gallons of a 5 gallon recipe. You add all the hops to the 2.5 gallon boil, as always. But since hops oils isomerization is about 100 IBUs (or less) in wort, even with adding tons of hops, the most you will ever get into a wort is 100 IBUs. And generally not even that much, as even one of the hoppiest beers that I can think of (Pliny the Elder at something like 250 IBUs calculated) was measured at 85 IBUs in a lab.

What this means is pretty simple. Say you do get 100 IBUs in the wort (again, unlikely but it makes the math easier!). Then you add 2.5 gallons of water with 0 IBUs in it, so the entire batch, at most, has 50 IBUs in it. It is even less if you boil 2 gallons and add 3 gallons of water. Since the maximum is more like 80 IBUs in practice, often this means 40 IBUs or less in the final beer.

Because IPAs are supposed to be firmly bitter, and often have a high OG, the beer tastes sweet because it is underbittered.

That is the only issue I've found with partial boils and extract beers. This doesn't seem to happen with lower IBUs like Scottish ales or most lower IBUs beers. It tends to rear its head with highly bittered and not sweet beer styles like IPAs.

I think one of the fixes would be something like HopShot, a hops extract that can be used that isn't impacted by boil volume. Or, alternatively, boiling more wort in the boil so that the hops isomerization is better.

 

[TwoHeart]

The biggest issue with too-sweet extract beers (especially IPAs) aren't the recipe or the steeping grains usually. The issue comes from doing a partial boil with a beer with higher amounts of hops (IBUs).

Here's why. Say you are boiling 2.5 gallons of a 5 gallon recipe. You add all the hops to the 2.5 gallon boil, as always. But since hops oils isomerization is about 100 IBUs (or less) in wort, even with adding tons of hops, the most you will ever get into a wort is 100 IBUs. And generally not even that much, as even one of the hoppiest beers that I can think of (Pliny the Elder at something like 250 IBUs calculated) was measured at 85 IBUs in a lab.

What this means is pretty simple. Say you do get 100 IBUs in the wort (again, unlikely but it makes the math easier!). Then you add 2.5 gallons of water with 0 IBUs in it, so the entire batch, at most, has 50 IBUs in it. It is even less if you boil 2 gallons and add 3 gallons of water. Since the maximum is more like 80 IBUs in practice, often this means 40 IBUs or less in the final beer.

Because IPAs are supposed to be firmly bitter, and often have a high OG, the beer tastes sweet because it is underbittered.

That is the only issue I've found with partial boils and extract beers. This doesn't seem to happen with lower IBUs like Scottish ales or most lower IBUs beers. It tends to rear its head with highly bittered and not sweet beer styles like IPAs.

I think one of the fixes would be something like HopShot, a hops extract that can be used that isn't impacted by boil volume. Or, alternatively, boiling more wort in the boil so that the hops isomerization is better.

I really appreciate this explanation. I've always understood that you get more hop utilization with a fuller boil, but have never heard an explanation this thorough... Thank you!

 

[kh54s10]

Good point. I will do some homework on measuring yeast health.

All 3 batches reached their intended FG. Unfortunately I don't have a temperature controlled environment to put them in for fermentation. I live in an apartment in the North East. So my air conditioner is on basically all the time to keep the internal temp no higher than 75 degrees

I oxygenate with the "stir like crazy" method. I do not make starters though .. great thought for tomorrows brew though!

Two issues not directly related to your sweetness issue:
1) Look into "swamp cooler" 75 degrees is way too hot for fermenting. I would make sure the internal temperature doesn't exceed 70 degrees, mid sixties it much better.

2) Use an online yeast pitch calculator and use the proper amount of yeast. If you use dry yeast, do not make a starter. It less expensive to just use more dry yeast.

 

[DrWill]

If you use dry yeast, do not make a starter. It less expensive to just use more dry yeast.

...but DO rehydrate your dry yeast.

 

[jhlfrty]

Thanks everyone for the fantastic replies. Yooper's comment about partial boil hop utilization is particularly interesting!

Just to give a specific example for the sake of the conversation, here is the recipe for my IPA recipe (that I am drinking as I write this, the sweetness stops bothering me around the third pint):

2.5 gallon boil - 5.25 gallons in fermentor

9 lbs of Maillard Malts Amber Extract
1 lbs Crystal/Caramel 20L steeping grain @ 150-160 degrees F
Hop additions (60 minute boil):
60 min - 1 oz Columbus
45 min - 1 oz Centennial
30 min - 1 oz Cascade
15 min - 1 oz Citra
5 min - 1 oz Cascade
Dry Hop (about 10 days) - 2 oz Cascade

According to Brewer's Friend, this recipe should have yielded an approx. 7% ABV (confirmed by hydrometer, and feels about right as I drink it) and 67 IBU (which i can barely taste)

Also, considering building a "brewers box" in the shelving that I use to store my carboys, as per madscientist's recommendation, to better control fermentation temps!

And will definitely rehydrate my yeast next time...

 

[Yooper]

One issue is the recipe- it should be "light" or "extra light" extract, and not amber extract. That is either a typo, or a bad recipe. The rest looks good, although I'd reduce the 20L to no more than .5-.75 pound.

The other issue is a 2.5 gallon boil for a 5+ gallon batch. As mentioned, the IBUs will never be high enough with greater than 50% of the IBUs reduced immediately by top off water. Check it in Brewer's Friend by cutting the IBUs by more than 50% (since there is more than half the batch with 0 IBUs) and that may get you closer to where you actually are. You could try something like Hopshot to fix that if there is no way you could increase your boil volume.

 

[jhlfrty]

One issue is the recipe- it should be "light" or "extra light" extract, and not amber extract. That is either a typo, or a bad recipe. The rest looks good, although I'd reduce the 20L to no more than .5-.75 pound.

I based the use of Amber on the other extract recipes that I made with kits ... but that is great feedback, thank you. Even the use of 1lb of 20L came from other kits I followed ...

To the forum: In a well-watched 5 gallon pot, how much water/extract do you recommend in a boil?? I was using 2-2.5 to be safe, but it seems like I either need to use more, or nearly double my hop additions!

 

[unionrdr]

I use the same 5 gallon SS kettle I started with. I do anything from quick AE pipeline fillers to AG recently. Brew In A Bag has been really handy. Anyway, by the time I mash & batch sparge, I wind up with 3.5 to 4 gallons in the boil. Generally, I shoot for 3.5 gallons. My beers have come out with a better hop/malt balance in doing so, as I still top off in primary. So it seems, less dilution at the topping off stage equals better balance.