Extract Beer Bitterness Question

[tmurph6]

Hey guys, I have recently dove head first into brewing and have finished up 2 extract brews. The first one was an english ESB and this most recent one was an American Pale Ale. Each one was a recipe of my own design, and I was hoping y'all could help me find out what's going on.

In each beer, I have the same bitter, dry taste going on. It kind of makes my throat mucus up a bit. Here are the details:

Both beers used light LME from my LHBS - basically bulk extract out of the barrels. The ESB used 6# and the pale used 7#. Each one had steeping grains, the ESB I steeped in 3 gal water for 30 minutes at 155ish and the pale ale I steeped in 2 gallons for 30 minutes at 155. Different water was used for each, the ESB I used water out of my refrigerator (Houston City Water) and the pale ale I used 1 gallon jugs of ozarka spring water.

As far as hops go, the ESB used 2 oz of amarillo for bittering and 1oz fuggle finishing, the pale used 1 oz of cascade to bitter, then hop bursted with citra for the last 15 minutes, 2 oz total citra, .5 oz every 5 minutes til flame out.

Each one used different yeast, wlp0005 for the ESB and Wyeast 1272 for the pale.

Star san sanitizer for both. For the pale I soaked everything in a weak oxyclean solution overnight, did a cold water rinse, weak vinegar solution soak, followed by another good rinse, then hot water soak and preboil of my brew kettle (stainless). I'm basically ruling out infections as both of my beers looked to have a really clean fermentation, no signs of infection, no sourness.

The pale ale I did about a 4 gallon boil and topped up to 5.5, I did a more concentrated boil for the ESB. Both fermented at high 60's. The pale in a swamp bucket with frozen bottles, and the ESB just in a closet during winter in Houston. ESB was 2 week primary, 2 week secondary, 3 weeks in the keg. Pale is 10 day, 2 week, 1 week in the keg thus far.

I'm a bit at a loss as to what's going on, I'm thinking the only constant between the two was the extract I used. My beer certainly isn't undrinkable, but it doesn't taste like the delicious beer I'm accustomed to from the store. Any help is appreciated, sorry for the long post.

 

[unionrdr]

Maybe the steep was too long? My wife's BB summer ale steeped the grains at 160F for 20 mins. It's been in primary 1 week today. Smells great,but it'll be next week's hydrometer test before a little taste can be had. Bitter beers have a little of that kind of smell;haven't smelled that yet on hers. It sounds like you didn't add any sugar,but got that same sort of reaction.

 

[tmurph6]

The pale ale smells wonderful, citra hop burst with citra dry hop makes it smell like a big bowl of fresh fruit. One of the nicest smelling beers I've had. Taste though, is off. Kind of agravating, as the bitterness takes away from what I was expecting to be a nice citrusy hop presence.

I've got another beer right behind it that used dark lme, but I did it as a mini mash with about 3.5 lbs of grain, 2 row, roasted barley, crystal 60 and oats. If that one turns out better, maybe I'll find the culprit. Any more ideas?

 

[unionrdr]

I've noticed that citrusy hops have a bitterness all their own. Like if you used actual citrus sort of bitterness. IPA's are a good example of what I'm talking about. Could that be it?

 

[tmurph6]

I don't know, I've had Sierra Nevada torpedo and it seemed a lot crisper. I don't know. I should probably just give it to an experienced brewer and ask for opinions.

 

[unionrdr]

You could take one to your LHBS & have them give an opinion. Some here have done that.

 

[jigidyjim]

Have you checked out the "astringent" off flavor description? Does that match? Check out http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Sounds like it to me... except for the mucus part, that's just weird. Maybe some slight allergy?

 

[tmurph6]

I would say astringent is a good description, however I'm not sure how I caused it. I steep for 30 minutes, which I think is pretty common. I don't sparge. Both my pale ale and esb tasted this way. Would 2 oz Amarillo @ 60 be too much for the esb. Also, on the other side, would .5 oz of citra every 5 minutes for 15 minutes be too much for the pale? Thanks, I feel like i'm making some headway.

It's just slightly mucusy, probably a result of how dry and bitter the beer finishes. Like I said, I have a stout about to finish, maybe since I mini mashed it will taste better.

 

[Yooper]

I would say astringent is a good description, however I'm not sure how I caused it. I steep for 30 minutes, which I think is pretty common. I don't sparge. Both my pale ale and esb tasted this way. Would 2 oz Amarillo @ 60 be too much for the esb. Also, on the other side, would .5 oz of citra every 5 minutes for 15 minutes be too much for the pale? Thanks, I feel like i'm making some headway.

It's just slightly mucusy, probably a result of how dry and bitter the beer finishes. Like I said, I have a stout about to finish, maybe since I mini mashed it will taste better.

Nah, your hopping rates are fine. I'm surprised with your techiques you're getting astringency. It looks good to me!

One thought- when we spend the winter in TX, we see those water kiosks all over the place. Do you have one near you where you can buy 5 gallons of reverse osmosis water cheap? That is one thing that will help nail down the cause.

The second thing- what yeast strains have you been using, and what were the fermentation temperatures?

And last, what did you do for sanitation?

 

[tmurph6]

The original post I believe has everything you need.

Yes I can get RO water, I heard it wasn't good to only use that, you need the minerals.

 

[jigidyjim]

Well grasping at straws but...

Did you squeeze the grain bag after steeping? Some people here say that's a bad idea, and can extract bad flavors from the grains.

Is there any hop sediment left in your beers? That could be unpleasant as well.

 

[jigidyjim]

Also, I've never kegged before...so maybe someone else can chime in if there's something in a kegging setup that could cause astringent tastes.

 

[jigidyjim]

Sorry for another post, but its also possible your beer is just green. I would think the ESB would be ready by now, but the pale definitely might still need a little time to mellow.

 

[tmurph6]

When I transfer to the keg I have very little, if no sediment. My beers are extremely clear. The esb tasted astringent out of the fermenter, however the pale ale tasted delicious out of the fermenter, no signs of astringency. It seems like as soon as I carbed it, that's when it started to taste bitter and dry.

No I don't squeeze the bag. The pale ale only had .75 lbs of grain steeped.

 

[tmurph6]

Sorry for another post, but its also possible your beer is just green. I would think the ESB would be ready by now, but the pale definitely might still need a little time to mellow.

ESB is floated. Wasn't undrinkable, just wasn't that great. I let it go 3 weeks before drinking it and it took a month to float, same flavor. The esb flavor seemed to never mellow so my gut says something is wrong. For my stout, I'm going to bottle condition a 6 pack and compare against the keg.

 

[tmurph6]

Hmm, maybe I've got it, more experienced brewers chime in. The pale ale I did a 10 day primary then cold crashed for 2 weeks then legged it. Is it possible the off flavors come from doing cold storage too early. Are there any off flavors generated by cold crashing an ale. The esb was 14 day primary then 14 day cold crash then keg.

 

[jigidyjim]

Hmm, maybe I've got it, more experienced brewers chime in. The pale ale I did a 10 day primary then cold crashed for 2 weeks then legged it. Is it possible the off flavors come from doing cold storage too early. Are there any off flavors generated by cold crashing an ale. The esb was 14 day primary then 14 day cold crash then keg.

Yah, usually cold-crashing is just a short thing before bottling/kegging. Most people leave in primary (or primary+secondary) for 3-4 weeks, then cold crash 2 days, then bottle/keg. I'm guessing it never got a chance to mellow out if you cold crashed it that quickly, but I've never done one on your schedule so I can't say for sure.

 

[tmurph6]

Can anyone comment about possibly taking it out of the refrigerator and letting it age at room temp for a couple of weeks to help it mellow? Would this help? I'm hoping this beer gets better as I'm going to be serving it at a baby shower in 2 weeks.

 

[Yooper]

Can anyone comment about possibly taking it out of the refrigerator and letting it age at room temp for a couple of weeks to help it mellow? Would this help? I'm hoping this beer gets better as I'm going to be serving it at a baby shower in 2 weeks.

Astringency won't improve with age, although sometimes other things (like diacetyl do).

I'd still go with the RO water. If you're brewing with extract, you're fine using RO water. Heck, you'd be fine even with all-grain brewing. The malt itself has minerals in it (notably calcium) so whoever told you that RO water isn't good for brewing (especially extract brewing) was blowing smoke up your er, behind.

 

[tmurph6]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but is reverse osmosis and distiller water the same. What should I look for in RO water if it's not?

 

[Yooper]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but is reverse osmosis and distiller water the same. What should I look for in RO water if it's not?

No, they aren't the same. RO water is often sold in those machines where you put a jug underneath and pay by the gallon. I've seen them on street corners in Texas, but I've also seen them in Wal-Mart.

 

[tmurph6]

Are those big water jugs that offices use for their water cooler reverse osmosis? I know I can get those. I've never sen the machines you speak of.

 

[tvtoms]

RO water should be around 6.0 ph, while distilled will be 7.0. So you could test it with a PH test strip and know that way if it's not on the label.

 

[Yooper]

RO water should be around 6.0 ph, while distilled will be 7.0. So you could test it with a PH test strip and know that way if it's not on the label.

I don't think that's a valid test! Acidic water wouldn't be the way to tell if it's reverse osmosis. It should say on the label.

 

[tmurph6]

What kind of water do y'all use? It's kind of odd to me that I got the same result using city water filtered through my fridge and using spring water. For my next brew I'll try to find RO water and eliminate the cold crashing.

 

[tvtoms]

I thought distilled water was supposed to be right at neutral ph. My RO water is always right at 6.0 anyway, and < 10 ppm. Guess you better look for a label!

 

[tmurph6]

This may be weird, but I think you can buy gallon jugs at babies r us that's reverse osmosis. I looked on the back of the jug and it said reverse osmosis. Ever seen that?

 

[cyclonite]

It's possible that the LME is contributing an off flavor (the water could be also), though poor LME usually doesn't present a bitter off flavor, but rather a tart/tangy taste that is a bit hard to describe. I agree with others, try RO or distilled water, but also try using DME instead if the water doesn't solve the issue.

FWIW, I now always use tap water run through a Brita pitcher, and my brews are definitely better for it. Our tap water here is pretty good though.

 

[Mongrel]

As far as hops go, the ESB used 2 oz of amarillo for bittering and 1oz fuggle finishing, the pale used 1 oz of cascade to bitter, then hop bursted with citra for the last 15 minutes, 2 oz total citra, .5 oz every 5 minutes til flame out..

ESB's and Pales aren't all that different, but the Amarillo would have been much more in line with a Pale Ale or IPA.

But, back to your question, it's probably the extract you used.

 

[Primevci]

Ro and distilled are 2 different process that end in the same result = no minerals in water...

Both effectively reduce &#8220;dissolved solids&#8221; content of water, but the processes are quite different. RO filters water through a very tight semi-permeable membrane. A distiller is like a big tea kettle: it boils water , catches the steam, condenses it, and captures the resulting water. Most impurities are left behind in the boiling chamber. Both distillers and reverse osmosis systems rely heavily on carbon filtration for chemical removal. (Cheap distillers often have little or no carbon filtration and are, therefore, of limited effectiveness.)