Exploding stand question
- Thread starter beardedirishman
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
- Status
If you would take the time to read carefully, the welder types were saying the overall heat generated by welding a joint on a rail is more than what would occur during a long boil, which is equally ridiculous.
You would also see that their reasoning for not drilling a hole was because it would let moisture in to the "air tight" joint, which was called into question immediately.
If you would read even more carefully, the real danger is steam due to water build up. Yes it is a long shot, just like getting struck by lightning. If I could remove my chance of being struck by lightning by drilling a few small holes, I would choose that.
If you look at a brewstand, the cross bar is closer to 50% exposed to the flame. That is all irrelevant to my argument which is about steam. I believe you have some knowledge about that. I assume you would not recommend disregarding pressure relief measures in a steam system.
I always find it humorous when people post the passive/aggressive stuff, and claim they weren't trying to insult anyone. Your initial post came off as an obvious backhanded jab that you thought the people on the "it can happen" side were full of crap.
The logic in this thread is atrocious. The fact that brew stands haven't been exploding all over the place isn't the point, and doesn't make one. The point is risk and risk avoidance. It obviously is possible, so the risk is not zero. There is a risk avoidance solution with zero downsides. Why are people arguing against it? It is confusing.
Again with the bad logic- "it hasn't happened, therefore it can't". On top of that, did you not see the chime blown out on the keggle? Last I read they figured it was due to water build up in a closed off section. Exactly what is possible in a brew stand rail.
The even worse and more arrogant logic is "I am not aware of it, therefore it is not true", and "I can't think of how it could be true, therefore it isn't" I wasn't aware we were in the presence of the supreme being.
I got the solution:
The brewing companies designed the kegs to explode for all the folks that did not obtain them legitimately.
(under their breath they are saying (like beavis and butthead)) Yah, we'll get those !^#@&#( that steal our kegs, just a little bend here on the bottom, that should do the trick.
An insurance company would have a field day with this as well. You file a claim, because you blew up your house and then the insurance company asks, Herr Brauenkophf, so, tell us, how did your house burn down? Well, I got this keg, and turned it into a pot and then it exploded!
All joking aside, you are responsible for your own actions good or bad. You must be informed about what the outcome of what you do and how that process will end.
The brewing companies designed the kegs to explode for all the folks that did not obtain them legitimately.
(under their breath they are saying (like beavis and butthead)) Yah, we'll get those !^#@&#( that steal our kegs, just a little bend here on the bottom, that should do the trick.An insurance company would have a field day with this as well. You file a claim, because you blew up your house and then the insurance company asks, Herr Brauenkophf, so, tell us, how did your house burn down? Well, I got this keg, and turned it into a pot and then it exploded!
All joking aside, you are responsible for your own actions good or bad. You must be informed about what the outcome of what you do and how that process will end.
It is obvious folks do not work with steam, even with a small amount of moisture it would migrate to the cooler areas and condense, not remain in the hot zone to increase pressure. If you filled the tube with water for it's entire length you might be able to raise the pressure high enough to get material failure, if the unheated surface area was small enough to not be able to transfer the heat back to the air from condensation.
Unbelievable. The point isn't to figure out what else could occur that might prevent a failure from occurring, it is whether in a worst case scenario it could happen.
Are you saying the chance is zero?
The cross piece is <24" and exposed for most of its length. The cross pieces for the brew stands of a certain person in this thread are even shorter, and even more directly exposed to the flame. Even for the front rail, there are 3 burners for its length, but I guess lighting all 3, or even 2, of the burners at the same time can't possibly happen.
It would not take being nearly full of water to cause a failure. (Is this where I get to ROLFLMAO? Whatever that is.) I am not even going to bother finding out what the exact water, pressure, and temp numbers are, because the only question at issue is whether it can or can't happen, which it obviously can. Combine superheated steam with reduce material strength from high heat, crappy welds, defects, etc., and the conclusions are obvious
In general it is a very unlikely scenario, however, with brewstands, several of the critical events that would need to occur are part of the normal brewing process, the main one being sudden and prolonged intense direct heat.
Again, however remote the possibility, the preventative measure has zero downsides, and costs ~nothing. Is there a (logical) reason not to do it?
The point was that if there is a void in the weld that introduced water the steam generated would escape from the same and soon the pressure would return to ambient. On the off chance someone actually can get a tight weld there is no route for the water to enter to create steam unless it was purposely introduced. If it pleases the masses then by all means drill a 1/4" hole on the underside of the frame tubes for positive means to prevent pressurization.
With the steam generation the steam will condense on the closest cooler surface and the energy balance between heat source and available area to dissipate condensed steam heat will determine maximum pressure and temperature achievable, my copper flash boiler was a practical demonstration of this problem. The second point is with small amount of water the steam will be generated at the point which the surface reaches boiling temp, far away from the maximum heat point, just like soldering copper supply lines when they are wet, the joint reaches 450 degrees while water is boiling inches away from joint.
As a builder of flash boiler and superheated steam injection RIMS brewing systems, in addition to years of working with steam boilers and process piping from residential low pressure to 450 MW power generating systems I have accumulated a little knowledge along the way.
With the steam generation the steam will condense on the closest cooler surface and the energy balance between heat source and available area to dissipate condensed steam heat will determine maximum pressure and temperature achievable, my copper flash boiler was a practical demonstration of this problem. The second point is with small amount of water the steam will be generated at the point which the surface reaches boiling temp, far away from the maximum heat point, just like soldering copper supply lines when they are wet, the joint reaches 450 degrees while water is boiling inches away from joint.
As a builder of flash boiler and superheated steam injection RIMS brewing systems, in addition to years of working with steam boilers and process piping from residential low pressure to 450 MW power generating systems I have accumulated a little knowledge along the way.
Hi guys. I think everyone is right here. Doesn't mean an argument can't arise to determine who is more right
Anyway, perhaps someone could address the picture / linked thread in post #7. I understand exactly what you just said, kladue (and of course I respect your signficant efforts with GM in the past), so maybe you can explain that rim failure.
Anyway, perhaps someone could address the picture / linked thread in post #7. I understand exactly what you just said, kladue (and of course I respect your signficant efforts with GM in the past), so maybe you can explain that rim failure.
You are ignoring an important variable called time. The water has ~infinite time to ingress, and a very limited time egress once a 100k btu burner is applied to it.
Your key word being "soon". I wasn't aware of the magical powers "soon" possesses that guarantees compensating events occur before failure.
I can create several scenarios where water a porous or defective weld could allow significant water to accumulate, and additional scenarios that plug the voids when pressurized.
That is all the belt and suspender folks were asking for- to stop recommending against drilling vent holes, especially with official Royal Society of ROLFLMAO endorsements.
The above is not applicable to the topic at hand. The issue is with a liquid confined in heated sealed vessel. Ideal gas laws do not apply. The pressure increase is not linear. The liquid provides additional gas volume as temp increases above its (variable) boiling point. This equals increased pressure.
The "boiling temp" of water is not a universal constant like the speed of light, it is primarily a function of ambient pressure. You logic using a copper joint being sweated is analogous to saying that ice freezes at 32F, so it can't get any colder than that. Look up superheated steam, again, and then apply it to a closed vessel system.
Hear, hear.Hi guys. I think everyone is right here. Doesn't mean an argument can't arise to determine who is more right
Would you kindly refrain from (repeatedly) inserting real world examples into what is obviously a purely fantastical discussion for most people. It is making things very difficult for them.
Good morning all
CWI, I made some ignorant comments. I like the way you stuck to your guns. HBT is all about learning and sharing. In my humble opinion.
Love this site.
Dan
CWI, I made some ignorant comments. I like the way you stuck to your guns. HBT is all about learning and sharing. In my humble opinion.
Love this site.
Dan
Not sure if I should be commended for sticking to my guns. I call it a character trait, most people call it a flaw.
Well, there's ignorant, and then there's stupid. You are no longer ignorant, and you aren't stupid since you realized you were ignorant, so you have that going for you. 'Cause like the famous quote goes "You can't fix stupid", or is it "caint".
EarthBound
Well-Known Member
Bah hahahaha!!!
cwi^^^
Thanks. All's good.
What are your thoughts about copper counterflow chillers?
Thanks. All's good.What are your thoughts about copper counterflow chillers?
Gee, I guess my earlier statement about others working with steam and superheated steam is true. You can create any scenario you want to justify any results you want, but most folks do not leave water in their brew stand structure when they build them, nor do many leave their "Baby" outside in the rain or spill much on it. Generally the paint applied after build will seal the voids large enough to admit water, smaller ones will be resistant to water entry due to surface tension of the water( create own scenario for that). The expected heat input for each of the structural members would be around 25% of burner output, not 100K as described, and as water would be boiled the resulting steam will condense on the cooler surfaces which limits maximum pressure to the coldest surface in contact with the steam (consult vapor pressure charts for water).
Oh, the possibilities are endless (or should I say bottomless)-
No reason to get all steamed up about it.
No reason to get bent out of shape.
Don't blow your top over it.
You are really just making my point for me with all of the "generally" statements. I wasn't aware that is how risk analysis is performed, and safety factors are determined.
I never said all 100K btu's of the burner would be injected into the system, just that it was exposed to. There are numerous places where I have previously made this clear. I suggest you take a look at HoppyGuy's production brew stands, and let me know what you think the max avg temp of his pot supports are, since he plans on selling them and is in your camp.
I have already consulted steam charts and equations, and I came up with ~1000psig as an attainable pressure. That is not even a worst case.
You are putting words in my mouth regarding scenarios. In a thermal cycling condensation scenario, vapor doesn't care about surface tension. In a spilled water on a hot frame scenario, it is severely diminished as well.
Same old song, coming up with things that "could go right", to counter the case when everything "does go wrong".
Someone is still waiting to hear how the "great unconformity" of the keg chime exploding fits into your theories.
martinworswick
Well-Known Member
if anyone else's first attempts at welding are as good as mine then air tight chambers would be the last thing you'd need to worry about! my welds had more holes than a false bottom,attempts to remedy resulted in bigger holes and much swearing
mobilecabinworks
Well-Known Member
The pun was unintended, by altogether awesome!
Well, when logic and proportion have fallen, I get bored repeating the same things, so I resort to sarcasm for my own amusement. I read it aloud, and pleasure myself orally.
Dwain
Well-Known Member
In my best Beavis voice:
"If I could do that, I'd never leave the house, heh heh, heh".
McCuckerson
Well-Known Member
If you used bedframe it wouldn't be an issue..... Just sayin...
brewingmeister
Well-Known Member
McCuckerson said:
It wouldn't be an issue if you didn't weld underwater or in a monsoon either....
So welds are more airtight if you weld in dry weather?
I really don't think you have thought this through fully, and I know what your thought process is.
I am with you. I'll leave looks and artistic appeal to the iBrewStand and Steve Jobs cult members. Angle iron provides more than enough strength for brewing purposes.
I miss my scrap heap since moving. The searching and driving to get something that I used to have in my pile is annoying.
brewingmeister
Well-Known Member
cwi said:
So you know what my though process is? nice to finally meet you hypnotoad.
If a weld isn't airtight then it's the same as drilling holes, any pressure is relieved through the gaps in the welding. If the welds are airtight how did this water, which is possibly going to explode, get in there in the first place? It's not like someone welding a stand is ever going to weld one end then fill the tube with water and then cap it off unless they are looking for a Darwin award.
-cheers
Honesty, this sounds like a bunch of five-year-olds arguing. I've had enough.
- Status
Similar threads
