Excesive DMS or problem with LHBS?

[Santhalas]

Hi. The last 5 or 6 batches haven't result as i intended, i have fixed a lot of little bugs in my process, but i'm still not happy with my beer. Can you drink it?, yes. Do you enjoy it? No.
It's hard to explain all the off flavors i taste. A bit of cooked vegetables or corn (DMS) and some buttery taste (Diacetyl), The beer is kind of watery, with no malt aroma or taste and very very little hop aroma or flavour. I'm not talking about green beer, i'm talking about 2-3 month old beers.

I normally batch sparge, controll the temperatures, the PH is OK, have a ferm chamber (ebay controller), use star san to sanitize (previously i was using iodophor but was able to import starsan via ebay). I clean everythig and sanitize conciusly so i think infection is not my problem.
I keep the wort 1 month in primary and 1 month in bottle. I take gravity measures and they are ok. Been trying only light beers (Common Pale Ale and golden ale).

So, i'm kind of frustrated and lost to what to do now... I have check and re check my process and i don't see any major problem, maybe some little bugs but nothing important so i am starting to think maybe its an ingredient issue..

1 important info, in my country, there are only 2 LHBS and not in my city, so i have to order everything and wait for the shipping to arrive, i have been ordering all-grain kit to the same LBHS but:
- ¿Could it be the cause that the type of grain the LHBS is using is not a good grain? Should i change to the other LHBS?
- They send the grain milled, ¿could the shipping affect the milled grain or the hops? Would it be better if I mill the grain?
- Or simply the LHBS is cheating and sending less or bad quality grain and hops? Yesterday i buy a scale in order to check everything the next time i buy

What else should i look??? Please help

 

[midfielder5]

Are you using pilsner malt and not boiling, hard w/ no lid, for 90 minutes? (DMS)

Are you using lager yeast and/or fermenting too high of a temp? (diactyl)

If these are not it, I would order from another place and see what happens. Also, maybe your recipe isnt very good. Hard to know w/o more info.
edit- what is name of the grain malters?

 

[Santhalas]

Are you using pilsner malt and not boiling, hard w/ no lid, for 90 minutes? (DMS)

Are you using lager yeast and/or fermenting too high of a temp? (diactyl)

If these are not it, I would order from another place and see what happens. Also, maybe your recipe isnt very good. Hard to know w/o more info.
edit- what is name of the grain malters?

1st Question: I'm buying as the base malt Pale Ale Brewferm (3srm), but who knows.. maybe the LHBS to increase profit is sending Pilsen, i'm doing 60 minutes boil without lid. Next time i will do 90 minutes to be sure, good advice.

2nd Question: Only Ale, using dry yeast, mainly Safale S-04 or US-05 depending the beer. Fermenting in a ferm chamber with the control at 19.5°C (67°F)

 

[duffbeer71]

Maybe think about adding a secondary fermenter to your process. After initial fermentation (5-7 days), rack to secondary to finish any fermentation (probably a week or two for the beers you are brewing) and will add clarity to your beer. Getting it off the spent yeast and ingredients may help improve the flavor.

 

[dbrewski]

Someone already mentioned time of boil, and fermentation temp control, both good points for flavor. For the "no malt taste/watery", I am curious...what is the OG of your batch? What is your efficiency overall? I mean, if you are shooting for 1.048 and end up at 1.036, or if you are ending up short in volume and topping off with water, that could be causing wateriness.

Go up a step in your next recipe, to a slightly higher gravity beer for more malt flavor. Include some Munich malt, or Vienna, both accentuate malt flavors.

 

[JonK331]

Maybe think about adding a secondary fermenter to your process. After initial fermentation (5-7 days), rack to secondary to finish any fermentation (probably a week or two for the beers you are brewing) and will add clarity to your beer. Getting it off the spent yeast and ingredients may help improve the flavor.

A secondary will not help with these issues. What about your water? Are you filtering to remove chlorine/chloramines? Also, can you post your recipes? I would certainly try ordering grain from the other shop if you suspect something is wrong.

 

[duffbeer71]

A secondary will not help with these issues.

Right, I was just thinking about the fermenting for a month in the primary for this beer.

 

[nhansen]

Before I picked up an immersion chiller I used to get DMS flavored of varying strength because my wort was sitting too long at temps conducive to DMS production while chilling in an ice bath.

Once I also lidded my fermenter while the wort was too warm. When I went to crack open the bucket to take my first FG reading a bunch of DMS laden condensate ran off into the beer. What promised to be a lovely oatmeal stout had to be pitched.

Just another thing to consider.

 

[Santhalas]

A secondary will not help with these issues. What about your water? Are you filtering to remove chlorine/chloramines? Also, can you post your recipes? I would certainly try ordering grain from the other shop if you suspect something is wrong.

I plan on doing this as a next recipe for 5 gal batch, 60 min boil, any suggestion is welcome (the previous one was very similar, a little less IBU):
- 3.6 kg Pale Ale Brewferm 3SRM (81,8%)
- 0.5kg Caracrystal 65SRM (11,4%)
- 0.3kg Oats Malted 1SRM (6,8%)
- Challenger 60 min IBU21.8
- Fuggles 20 min IBU6.9
- East Kent Golding 0min IBU 0
- Safale S-04 Dry Yeast

My last Water Report is (it's not complete, by law this is all the info they are forced to give):
PH: 7.46
Sulfate: 79.75 ppm
Magnesium: 7.85ppm
Free Residual Chlorine: 0.93ppm (i'm not sure if this is the same as Chlorine used in for ezwater excel)

 

[Santhalas]

Before I picked up an immersion chiller I used to get DMS flavored of varying strength because my wort was sitting too long at temps conducive to DMS production while chilling in an ice bath.

Once I also lidded my fermenter while the wort was too warm. When I went to crack open the bucket to take my first FG reading a bunch of DMS laden condensate ran off into the beer. What promised to be a lovely oatmeal stout had to be pitched.

Just another thing to consider.

mmm maybe you have a point here. I use a counterflow chiller, but when i'm cooling my wort i put the lid on the BT (concerned about contamination) maybe some DMS laden condesate ran into the beer. If this is a serious trouble, what should i do with the 5 gal currently in the fermenter, bottle it anyway and wait forever or simply accept my mistake and drop it?

BUT, That would explain de DMS taste, but i think the watery/no malt taste have something to do with ingredients.

dbrewski, my last batch measured OG was 1050 as intended

 

[dbrewski]

dbrewski, my last batch measured OG was 1050 as intended

Hmmm. Guess I would think old ingredients, especially as it pertains to hops which degrade over time. But I would say I went on my own journey of learning to get more hops flavor/aroma. Much of my beer was malty, and enough hops to bitter it, but it did not have much flavor/aroma. In Designing Great Beers there is a hops utilization table that pointed out differing utilization rates for leaf vs. pellet (I was using leaf) so based on that I increased leaf hop amounts by 25%. The other thing I found successful was using a french press and steeping the flavor hops on the side for the duration of the boil, adding them back in after flame out. And of course dry hopping, using massive amounts of hops cannot be beat for aroma and flavor.

For the malt "watered down" taste, I could not say. Maybe old grain, someone else here suggested trying the other store. Do these stores get much turnover? Is homebrewing popular there? I would look around for other sources.

and the last thing was my suggestion to just try a higher gravity, more flavorful beer like an amber, or to add other "malty" malts like Munich/Vienna. I have a feeling that if you fixed the DMS and diacetyl flavors the malt would come through more strongly anyway regardless of recipe.

 

[nhansen]

mmm maybe you have a point here. I use a counterflow chiller, but when i'm cooling my wort i put the lid on the BT (concerned about contamination) maybe some DMS laden condesate ran into the beer. If this is a serious trouble, what should i do with the 5 gal currently in the fermenter, bottle it anyway and wait forever or simply accept my mistake and drop it?

My reply probably isn't helpful if you're using a counterflow chiller--I wasn't sure as your wort cooling method wasn't specifically mentioned. I chill without the lid on but most videos I've watched do keep the BK covered while chilling. Still pretty new to all of this myself actually but I've never had an infection problem doing it this way. (yet )

Both cases where I dumped my beer due to DMS it was because the flavor was overpowering to me and I can drink some skunky beer when necessary. It was truly bad. If it's subtle and you can drink it, no need to pitch it.

Your process is sound it seems. Although I'd hesitate to blame sub-standard ingredients for DMS, it could explain the other issues you're encountering.

 

[Santhalas]

For the malt "watered down" taste, I could not say. Maybe old grain, someone else here suggested trying the other store. Do these stores get much turnover? Is homebrewing popular there? I would look around for other sources.

Well, as a matter of fact, homebrewing is not very popular (that's why i love HBT cause there is always good ppl helping!!!) so i shouldn't expect a high turnover. Also, it's been a really hot summer here and i don't know how the LHBS store the ingredients...

Maybe i will have to start a trial or error aproach.I'm planning on buying the recipe in the other store. If it turn out right, well, it was the ingredients if not, i will continue looking for another cause. Maybe the problem is between my keyboard and chair

Is there a way to know if the grain is fresh and properly milled? And the hops (pellets)?