Examining possible solutions to issue of sulfur smell from Perlick 650ss faucets

[0dustin]

Thanks for all the research and write-up. I tried the NaOH soak on my smelly 650 last night. I could never really smell it on the metal but the few beers I put through it all had the sulfur stink on the first few oz of the day.

I forgot to read the production code, but I can check that tonight when I test for smells. It was purchased last summer.

 

[-TH-]

Update my smelly faucet is lot# A0515G

Bummer, that's my lot number too. No problems yet but I've only run one beer through it so far.

 

[Newsman]

Where does one find the lot number? I have a couple SS Perlick faucets at home, but don't really recall the model number.

 

[agrazela]

Where does one find the lot number? I have a couple SS Perlick faucets at home, but don't really recall the model number.

On the 650ss (and probably on others), it is on the bottom of the "main barrel" of the faucet body, right underneath the patent number info.

The one in this pic, for example, reads "A0815G"

 

[agrazela]

Just to keep the post count going, here's my tally thus far of those who've reported with 650ss lot codes and smell or no smell:

A0115G: 1 no smell
A0215G: 2 no smell, 1 smell
A0415G: 3 no smell
A0515G: 8 no smell, 1 smell
A0815G: 3 smell
A0915G: 2 smell

 

[sctcts]

Perlick replied to the email I sent them detailing my experiments. It's my understanding from Perlick that certain components of the 650SS faucet are made from 303 stainless, and therefore not recommended for use with low pH beverages.

I asked them to specify which components on the 650SS are made of 303, but they seem reluctant to go into details so I doubt I'll get any more information. Still, it's nice to have confirmation that it does contain 303 stainless. Based on our experimentation so far, I'd say it's safe to assume that the flow control components unique to the 650SS are made of 303, and possibly the lever handle as well.

 

[CascadeOK]

Just to keep the post count going, here's my tally thus far of those who've reported with 650ss lot codes and smell or no smell:

A0115G: 1 no smell
A0215G: 2 no smell, 1 smell

I had posted 1 of each on these. Not sure if I wasnt recorded or A0115G no smell was a mistake but I had sulfur smell from both my A0115G and my A0215G.

 

[agrazela]

I had posted 1 of each on these. Not sure if I wasnt recorded or A0115G no smell was a mistake but I had sulfur smell from both my A0115G and my A0215G.

Went through the tally again, it is correct for all who have thus far reported both a lot code and a smell/no smell verdict.

Interesting that there does not appear to be any clear, singular "cut-off" date between smell / no-smell. Maybe these have been produced in separate factories all along. Maybe it's a shift-to-shift thing. Maybe some folks' beer is higher pH than others'. Maybe some folks are more sensitive to it than others?

=================

Update on Treatment Test 2, soaking three suspect parts (and shank) in 5% NaOH at 70°C for 30minutes, on the second of three 650ss faucets (also lot code A0915G):

Re-installed in keezer Monday evening 3/14/16, hooked up to an American IPA on an EJ Barrier tubing/QD assembly that had sanitizer pushed through it from a pressurized keg.

Let sit overnight with flow control at about the "halfway" position. Next morning (Tues), first draw (about two ounces or so) had a faint smell of sulfur, immediately subsequent pour does not. Next morning (Wed), same story.

Brought a sample to the lab, and IPA pH measured 4.45 (pic17), not particularly low.

Again, this smell is GREATLY diminished from what it was originally, but it is STILL not gone.

Changed the IPA over to my third faucet (with the full-on alkaline-acid-alkaline re-passivation) and will report over the next few days.

(Sadly, all my other pale ale kegs are kicked...partly because the wife is REALLY digging the keeezer , but partly due to having to toss so much sulfur beer )

Edit: my wife likes to drink beer the way her Pittsburgh grandma did, sipping 2oz shots from a little juice glass. But by your eighth one, you've had a pint, you know!

 

[sctcts]

Interesting that there does not appear to be any clear, singular "cut-off" date between smell / no-smell. Maybe these have been produced in separate factories all along. Maybe it's a shift-to-shift thing. Maybe some folks' beer is higher pH than others'. Maybe some folks are more sensitive to it than others?

The lot codes printed on the outside of the faucet are probably just for tracking the final assembled product. We would need the batch/production run codes for each of the different components (compensator, control shaft, lever, etc.) if my guesses on the causes (different factories/shifts or variations in steel composition) are correct, since there are likely multiple production runs of the components in each lot of final assemblies. We can’t track the batch-to-batch or shift-to-shift changes without these.

I would bet that a lot of it comes down to certain people being more sensitive to this than others, or that they only drink/brew beers within the more ‘normal’ pH range for beer. Or that some people are just blaming the sulfur on their homebrew technique instead of the taps. It’s not uncommon to have sulfury off-flavours in cider, which is one of the more typical low pH beverages. Initially I would’ve assumed it was just a bad batch if we hadn’t switched the tap halfway through a keg and had it turn from a delicious cider to a sulfury mess.

 

[0dustin]

Update on my NaOH soak. It reduced the sulfur smell to the point where I no longer need to ditch the 1st couple oz, but I still get a faint whiff. I might try again after I kick this keg.

 

[agrazela]

Update on Treatment Test 3, full-on alkaline-citric acid-alkaline re-passivation of all the stainless steel parts and shank and tailpiece (see post #58):

Re-installed in keezer Monday evening 3/14/16, hooked up to an American IPA on an EJ Barrier tubing/QD assembly that had sanitizer pushed through it from a pressurized keg morning of Wed 3/16.

Let sit all day with flow control at about the "halfway" position. That evening: no perceptible sulfur smell, either on the first small draw (about two ounces or so), or on subsequent full pint draws. Next morning (Thu), same story on initial 2oz draw, no perceptible sulfur.

I will check again tonight, and if still no sulfur, looks like I'll be fully re-passivating my first two faucets also.

 

[robopp]

I have the issue on my two faucets - A1114G

 

[agrazela]

Update on my NaOH soak. It reduced the sulfur smell to the point where I no longer need to ditch the 1st couple oz, but I still get a faint whiff. I might try again after I kick this keg.

Were you able to find your lot code?

 

[agrazela]

I have the issue on my two faucets - A1114G

Hmm, does seem to be more prevalent the newer the faucet (again, assuming this is a MMYY date code, which I'm quite certain it is).

Hoping to get a few more responses, then will re-tally.

Edit: oops my bad, you said 1114, not the 1115 my brain saw.

 

[Newsman]

Can't find a lot code on mine. Attaching a pic of my faucets

View attachment 1458300127565.jpg

 

[agrazela]

So Treatment Test 3 (full on A-A-A re-passivation) passed the no-sulfur test last night, and again this morning (Fri 3/18). So I brought my first two faucets back into the lab and subjected them to the passivation routine, but with a few twists...

(Quoted myself from post #58 to re-show the process; check that post for the pictures if you want):

...Soaked all stainless parts (including shank and tailpiece for completeness) in 5% NaOH for 30 minutes at ~70°C (Pic14). Rinsed in distilled water, then soaked in 10% citric acid for 30minutes at ~65°C (Pic15)...

Rinsed again in distilled water, followed by another 30 minutes soak in fresh 5% NaOH at ~70°C. Then rinsed in distilled water, then rinsed in 70% isopropyl alcohol, then laid out to air dry.

All the non-stainless, chrome-plated brass parts (faucet bonnets and bearing cup, shank's coupler and collar, etc.) and the seals got a soak in dilute Star San analog, then laid out to dry.

There does not appear to be any discoloration or damage to the shiny exterior of the faucet (Pic16)...

The twists are: Instead of using 10% citric acid this time, I used:

• For the first faucet, 12.5% phosphoric acid (1:5 dilution of 75% phosphoric : distilled water)
• For the second faucet, a 1:2 dilution of my Star San analog : distilled water (also comes out to 12.5% phosphoric acid)

I did this because phosphoric should work as well as citric (according to that gov't paper), and because I wanted to find an option that minimizes the number of chemicals anyone else who wants to try this would have to buy...as brewers, you may already have phosphoric acid (for adjusting mash pH), and you're quite likely to have Star San.

One caveat, do not subject the "handle" portion of the flow control to this treatment, it appears from the discoloration that it is made from chrome-plated brass (Pic18). It doesn't touch beer anyway.

Will test and report over the next few days.

 

[0dustin]

Were you able to find your lot code?

Whoops, forgot about that. A0215G

 

[agrazela]

Update on modified Treatment Test 3.1 and 3.2 (full on A-A-A re-passivation, this time using sources of phosphoric acid instead of citric acid):

Test 3.1, 12.5% phosphoric acid (1:5 dilution of 75% phosphoric : distilled water): Failed with a faint whiff of sulfur the morning of Saturday and again the evening of Saturday

Test 3.2, a 1:2 dilution of my Star San analog : distilled water (also comes out to 12.5% phosphoric acid): Failed with a faint whiff of sulfur the morning of Sunday and again the evening of Sunday

Looks like I'm going to have to re-passivate these two faucets using citric.

So here's what I seem to have learned:

• It would appear that the full-on Alkaline-Acid-Alkaline passivation is the trick, but that you have to use citric acid (the phosphoric acid is just not doing it).
• It seems that the 650ss parts that really need it are the handle lever, the compensator, and the "barrel" or "shaft" of the flow control device (see Pic08 in post #39), although this process does not seem to harm the shiny main body of the faucet. You might want to do this to your shank (minus any non-SS parts) and tailpiece (if also SS), if you are not sure whether or not they're 303SS vs 304SS, and/or whether or not they were properly passivated, you won't hurt them.
• I would strongly suggest making all your solutions using distilled water, contaminants like chlorides and such can cause spotting and streaking during passivation (from what I've been reading).

 

[agrazela]

So it seems like I may have jumped the gun on declaring that phosphoric acid passivation does not work. I've left the faucet that was A-A-A passivated using Star San analog as the acid (what I've now called "Test 3.2") hooked up to the same IPA for a few more days now, and I am no longer getting any perceptible sulfur, even on the first draw of the day after overnight, or even after nearly 24hrs. For info, that faucet is a A0915G lot code.

Going to have to transfer that same beer over to the one passivated using straight-up phosphoric acid (which I'm now calling "Test 3.1") for a few days and see if the sulfur goes away for good on that faucet as well. BTW, that faucet is a A0815G lot code.

 

[KatoBaggins]

For the sake of the research, my 4 650SS's are all A0215G, and I have not had the sulphur problem described in this thread. Your efforts are appreciated.

 

[flemming]

I stumbled on this thread by accident, but I too have been having this problem. The first beer I put through a new 650ss faucet was a lager so initially I just blamed it on the beer Thanks for all the research you've done.

Five Star's Liquid Line Cleaner is NaOH based, though it contains other things. The MSDS is here:

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/LiquidCirculationCleaner1MSDS1.pdf

Do you think using this for the initial wash, rather than a straight 5% NaOH solution would be appropriate? It looks like a dilution of 7:1 would get you in the ballpark.

Robert

 

[agrazela]

I stumbled on this thread by accident, but I too have been having this problem. The first beer I put through a new 650ss faucet was a lager so initially I just blamed it on the beer Thanks for all the research you've done.

Five Star's Liquid Line Cleaner is NaOH based, though it contains other things. The MSDS is here:

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/LiquidCirculationCleaner1MSDS1.pdf

Do you think using this for the initial wash, rather than a straight 5% NaOH solution would be appropriate? It looks like a dilution of 7:1 would get you in the ballpark.

Robert

I don't see why that wouldn't work.

 

[Steelhorses]

seriously... 9 pages of it's the pot postings.....

 

[agrazela]

seriously... 9 pages of it's the pot postings.....

I don't understand what this means.

 

[BrunDog]

Interesting development... I never smelled any sulfur from my taps. Yesterday I was changing out a keg. I did a PBW flush, then a star san flush. Usually I then put the new keg inand pull beer through it. But yesterday I left it alone, with the star san in the line for a few hours. Sur enough, when I went to drain it... sulfur smell. No doubt the acidity is the issue.

Which leads me to the next question... is your beer possibly too acidic? Have you measured it? This tap had a hefe though it, and I never smelled sulfur before, but maybe some beers are on the acidic threshold to pull sulfur out?

Either way, this is a problem that Perlick needs to address.

 

[agrazela]

Interesting development... I never smelled any sulfur from my taps. Yesterday I was changing out a keg. I did a PBW flush, then a star san flush. Usually I then put the new keg inand pull beer through it. But yesterday I left it alone, with the star san in the line for a few hours. Sur enough, when I went to drain it... sulfur smell. No doubt the acidity is the issue.

Which leads me to the next question... is your beer possibly too acidic? Have you measured it? This tap had a hefe though it, and I never smelled sulfur before, but maybe some beers are on the acidic threshold to pull sulfur out?

Either way, this is a problem that Perlick needs to address.

The IPA I did the original testing with measured pH 4.45 (post #68), but that keg kicked some time ago.

I have a BoPils on my third faucet right now (most recent treatment: full AAA passivated with phosphoric), as mentioned before that faucet (it's a A0915G) is no longer kicking sulfur.

I have a Porter on my second faucet right now (full AAA passivated with citric), also as mentioned before that faucet (it's a A0915G) is no longer kicking sulfur.

I have a Rye Amber Ale on my first faucet (most recent treatment: full AAA passivated with Star San analog as the acid), and that one (it's a A0815G) is still giving me the faintest whiff of sulfur on that first draw, even through a lot of Columbus and Centennial hops. It's so faint and fleeting that if this was in a commercial, "being pulled constantly" setting I'm sure no one would notice it. But still not fixed as far as I'm concerned. Call this my promised update.

I should get pH on all these beers.

Still thinking I need to re-do full AAA passivation on that A0815G faucet, probably use citric on it, that might be the best treatment IMO. But then again, maybe A0815G was simply a particularly sulfury vintage, and just needs another round of passivation whatever the acid used.

It may also be that these passivations still haven't removed all surface sulfur (from my A0915G's), but just enough that regular pH beer isn't bringing it out any more.

And as far as I can tell, Perlick ain't addressing s**t.

 

[LBussy]

Been watching this thread with some interest as I really love my 650ss faucets. Tapped some cider with more than a little trepidation. Came back the next day and there was no doubt in my mind I have the issue. One faucet now, the other one is fine but not put anything really acidic through it.

Lot # A1115G

I'll be doing the passivation steps this weekend.

 

[Johnny-O]

Damn, the other night I let PBW sit in my lines overnight and then let Star San sit in my lines for the next night while I carbed up my beer. Only to pour a first pint of the most over the top sulpher smell I've ever smelt in a beer. When I run out some beer it seems to go away. But if I let the tap sit again for a little while I get more sulpher on the first pull. I turned to Google and found the discussions about the issue. So bummed.

My questions:

1. Is this ever going to go away, or did I cause a reaction that will forever produce sulpher even in regular beer?

2. Is there anything that poses a potential health risk here?

Thanks all.

 

[LBussy]

1. Is this ever going to go away, or did I cause a reaction that will forever produce sulpher even in regular beer?

It can be fixed

2. Is there anything that poses a potential health risk here?

No health risk other than the sick feeling you get after spending that much on faucets and then having this happen.

The information to fix the faucets is in this thread. I'm also working on a "knuckle-dragger's guide to fixing the faucets" that anyone can follow step by step. One of the contributors to this thread has a copy - assuming he does not find any glaring issues I'll post it within a day or two.

 

[BrunDog]

WTF is Perlick on this?!? I might give them a ring. This is bullish!t.