Examining possible solutions to issue of sulfur smell from Perlick 650ss faucets

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I stumbled on this thread by accident, but I too have been having this problem. The first beer I put through a new 650ss faucet was a lager so initially I just blamed it on the beer :) Thanks for all the research you've done.

Five Star's Liquid Line Cleaner is NaOH based, though it contains other things. The MSDS is here:

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/LiquidCirculationCleaner1MSDS1.pdf

Do you think using this for the initial wash, rather than a straight 5% NaOH solution would be appropriate? It looks like a dilution of 7:1 would get you in the ballpark.

Robert
 
flemming said:
I stumbled on this thread by accident, but I too have been having this problem. The first beer I put through a new 650ss faucet was a lager so initially I just blamed it on the beer :) Thanks for all the research you've done.

Five Star's Liquid Line Cleaner is NaOH based, though it contains other things. The MSDS is here:

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/LiquidCirculationCleaner1MSDS1.pdf

Do you think using this for the initial wash, rather than a straight 5% NaOH solution would be appropriate? It looks like a dilution of 7:1 would get you in the ballpark.

Robert
Click to expand...

I don't see why that wouldn't work.
 
Interesting development... I never smelled any sulfur from my taps. Yesterday I was changing out a keg. I did a PBW flush, then a star san flush. Usually I then put the new keg inand pull beer through it. But yesterday I left it alone, with the star san in the line for a few hours. Sur enough, when I went to drain it... sulfur smell. No doubt the acidity is the issue.

Which leads me to the next question... is your beer possibly too acidic? Have you measured it? This tap had a hefe though it, and I never smelled sulfur before, but maybe some beers are on the acidic threshold to pull sulfur out?

Either way, this is a problem that Perlick needs to address.
 
BrunDog said:
Interesting development... I never smelled any sulfur from my taps. Yesterday I was changing out a keg. I did a PBW flush, then a star san flush. Usually I then put the new keg inand pull beer through it. But yesterday I left it alone, with the star san in the line for a few hours. Sur enough, when I went to drain it... sulfur smell. No doubt the acidity is the issue.

Which leads me to the next question... is your beer possibly too acidic? Have you measured it? This tap had a hefe though it, and I never smelled sulfur before, but maybe some beers are on the acidic threshold to pull sulfur out?

Either way, this is a problem that Perlick needs to address.
Click to expand...

The IPA I did the original testing with measured pH 4.45 (post #68), but that keg kicked some time ago.

I have a BoPils on my third faucet right now (most recent treatment: full AAA passivated with phosphoric), as mentioned before that faucet (it's a A0915G) is no longer kicking sulfur.

I have a Porter on my second faucet right now (full AAA passivated with citric), also as mentioned before that faucet (it's a A0915G) is no longer kicking sulfur.

I have a Rye Amber Ale on my first faucet (most recent treatment: full AAA passivated with Star San analog as the acid), and that one (it's a A0815G) is still giving me the faintest whiff of sulfur on that first draw, even through a lot of Columbus and Centennial hops. It's so faint and fleeting that if this was in a commercial, "being pulled constantly" setting I'm sure no one would notice it. But still not fixed as far as I'm concerned. Call this my promised update.

I should get pH on all these beers.

Still thinking I need to re-do full AAA passivation on that A0815G faucet, probably use citric on it, that might be the best treatment IMO. But then again, maybe A0815G was simply a particularly sulfury vintage, and just needs another round of passivation whatever the acid used.

It may also be that these passivations still haven't removed all surface sulfur (from my A0915G's), but just enough that regular pH beer isn't bringing it out any more.

And as far as I can tell, Perlick ain't addressing s**t.
 
Been watching this thread with some interest as I really love my 650ss faucets. Tapped some cider with more than a little trepidation. Came back the next day and there was no doubt in my mind I have the issue. One faucet now, the other one is fine but not put anything really acidic through it.

Lot # A1115G

I'll be doing the passivation steps this weekend.
 
Damn, the other night I let PBW sit in my lines overnight and then let Star San sit in my lines for the next night while I carbed up my beer. Only to pour a first pint of the most over the top sulpher smell I've ever smelt in a beer. When I run out some beer it seems to go away. But if I let the tap sit again for a little while I get more sulpher on the first pull. I turned to Google and found the discussions about the issue. So bummed.

My questions:

1. Is this ever going to go away, or did I cause a reaction that will forever produce sulpher even in regular beer?

2. Is there anything that poses a potential health risk here?

Thanks all.
 
Johnny-O said:
1. Is this ever going to go away, or did I cause a reaction that will forever produce sulpher even in regular beer?
Click to expand...
It can be fixed

Johnny-O said:
2. Is there anything that poses a potential health risk here?
Click to expand...
No health risk other than the sick feeling you get after spending that much on faucets and then having this happen.

The information to fix the faucets is in this thread. I'm also working on a "knuckle-dragger's guide to fixing the faucets" that anyone can follow step by step. One of the contributors to this thread has a copy - assuming he does not find any glaring issues I'll post it within a day or two.
 
BrunDog said:
WTF is Perlick on this?!? I might give them a ring. This is bullish!t.
Click to expand...
It is ... and someone needs to really hold their feet to the fire in order to get them to do anything about it. Unfortunately that's not going to do anything for us right now so I fixed my faucets. It's not too hard to do and I really like them otherwise so it's not going to prevent me from buying another of this type.
 
LBussy said:
So far so good.
Click to expand...

Sorry, which fix are you referring to? There is a lot of info in this post and a few suggestions. Are you referring to post # 58?

This is such a bummer. The smell is there on every first pull. I had hoped it would dissipate but no luck. The smell of sulfur is so off putting it's just about turned me off the whole batch.
 
Johnny-O said:
1. Is this ever going to go away, or did I cause a reaction that will forever produce sulpher even in regular beer?
Click to expand...

The sulfur taste should only occur with beverages that have a lower than normal pH, such as wine, cider, or sour beers. A typical ale or lager will not have a pH low enough to cause any issue. However, a couple people have reported sulfur issues with more 'normal' beers.

Johnny-O said:
Sorry, which fix are you referring to? There is a lot of info in this post and a few suggestions. Are you referring to post # 58?
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure LBussy is referring to my earlier post (#48), though agrazela does go through essentially the same process in post #58. As LBussy mentioned, he'll soon be posting a rather detailed step-by-step guide if the process isn't clear to you from my post.

BrunDog said:
WTF is Perlick on this?!? I might give them a ring. This is bullish!t.
Click to expand...

LBussy said:
It is ... and someone needs to really hold their feet to the fire in order to get them to do anything about it. Unfortunately that's not going to do anything for us right now so I fixed my faucets. It's not too hard to do and I really like them otherwise so it's not going to prevent me from buying another of this type.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I wouldn't expect to hear anything more from Perlick on this.

It is frustrating that they haven't publicly acknowledged this issue since it seems to be affecting quite a few people. But they probably aren't seeing many complaints from commercial customers, who would only see the issue on the first pour of the day unless their taps frequently sat unused for over an hour. Homebrewers likely account for only a small percentage of their sales, so there isn't much push to fix the issue if they aren't getting pressure from their main (i.e. commercial) customers. Especially when many homebrewers also report no issues. Still, it would be good if they'd at least acknowledge those who have issues and try to help them.
 
sctcts said:
The sulfur taste should only occur with beverages that have a lower than normal pH, such as wine, cider, or sour beers. A typical ale or lager will not have a pH low enough to cause any issue. However, a couple people have reported sulfur issues with more 'normal' beers.



I'm pretty sure LBussy is referring to my earlier post (#48),
Click to expand...

Thanks. I've had the taps for about 9 months and never had the issue at all. But I never left Star San in them overnight either. Doing that seems to have caused the issue, and it's VERY strong in every single tap. Even though the beer that is in them is normal beer, the low PH Star San seems to have caused a permanent reaction that won't stop producing sulfur, at least until I pull everything apart and do the recommended treatment (which I have not tried yet). The first pull from every beer stinks of sulfur. It appears to just be the beer that is in the tap. After the first inch or so there is no sulfur. But that first inch is pure rotten egg. This has been persisting for about 36 hours and it only takes about 20 minutes for the smell to form.

I tried to go to Perlick's site but could find no mention of it on their site, nor could I even find a contact email. I did get a phone number but of course they were closed. Will try again tomorrow. I'm in New Zealand and spent over $500 to get four taps because I wanted the best quality. Now all four of my taps are ruined until I go through the fix. Fingers crossed that it works for me.

Thanks again.
 
Johnny-O said:
Thanks. I've had the taps for about 9 months and never had the issue at all. But I never left Star San in them overnight either. Doing that seems to have caused the issue, and it's VERY strong in every single tap. Even though the beer that is in them is normal beer, the low PH Star San seems to have caused a permanent reaction that won't stop producing sulfur, at least until I pull everything apart and do the recommended treatment (which I have not tried yet). The first pull from every beer stinks of sulfur. It appears to just be the beer that is in the tap. After the first inch or so there is no sulfur. But that first inch is pure rotten egg. This has been persisting for about 36 hours and it only takes about 20 minutes for the smell to form.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I haven't heard of the issue occurring just due to a starsan soak, what type of beer is on tap? And what was on it previously? That said, my friend did notice a strong sulfur smell when he soaked the parts in starsan when cleaning, before we came up with this fix. Could be possible that the acidity of the star-san etched away the MnS deposits, leaving the elemental sulfur which causes the off flavours. This is what is described in the Shen(2004) paper, except it's the acidic passivation solution causing the MnS etching, not starsan.

I wonder whether this issue is due to taps being cleaned in star-san? Especially if people don't rinse off the starsan afterwards, it may leave some trapped in the surface, further contributing to the issue. I'm guessing that many homebrewers let them soak in starsan before installing (which isn't necessary, but you wouldn't expect it to harm the faucet). The above is just speculation on my part, I don't really have any evidence to support the theory.

Johnny-O said:
I tried to go to Perlick's site but could find no mention of it on their site, nor could I even find a contact email. I did get a phone number but of course they were closed. Will try again tomorrow. I'm in New Zealand and spent over $500 to get four taps because I wanted the best quality. Now all four of my taps are ruined until I go through the fix. Fingers crossed that it works for me.

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Perlick isn't really set up to be contacted directly by consumers, pretty sure you're meant to go through the distributor that sold you the parts.

Also, $500 for 4 taps!? And I thought the prices in Canada were high...
 
Well I will say that I had never experienced the issue at all. 5 taps, about 9 months old, each had a few different beers in them. Each tap had a quick star San flush immediately before being tapped. Then only last leg change, I did a star San flush, but the beer wasn't tapped right away as I had to do something else for a few hours. So it soaked during that time. When I tapped it, I got hit with a sulfur blast. Now I haven't smelled any through that tap again, but clearly the acid hit did something to the tap. If it had soaked longer, it may have caused the permanent odor that is described above. I am not going to push it but it sounds to me like the acid soak triggers the problem, probably by exposing the sulfur in the parts.

Commercial tap houses probably don't experience the issue because they don't clean their taps!!
 
BrunDog said:
Well I will say that I had never experienced the issue at all. 5 taps, about 9 months old, each had a few different beers in them. Each tap had a quick star San flush immediately before being tapped. Then only last leg change, I did a star San flush, but the beer wasn't tapped right away as I had to do something else for a few hours. So it soaked during that time. When I tapped it, I got hit with a sulfur blast. Now I haven't smelled any through that tap again, but clearly the acid hit did something to the tap. If it had soaked longer, it may have caused the permanent odor that is described above. I am not going to push it but it sounds to me like the acid soak triggers the problem, probably by exposing the sulfur in the parts.

Commercial tap houses probably don't experience the issue because they don't clean their taps!!
Click to expand...

I'm fairly positive it was either the Star San. I have read a lot of other comments on the web claiming the same thing. It makes total sense if even the manufacturer is claiming that low PH beverages cause the problem. I've soaked in PBW overnight without issue before, and I always run Star San through them. But I have never left it for more than 20 minutes or so. This was the first time I soaked overnight, and all of the sudden all four have the smell. Even the two that I never added beer to. The Star San I ran out of them even smelled like Sulfur.
 
BrunDog said:
Commercial tap houses probably don't experience the issue because they don't clean their taps!!
Click to expand...

Ha!

But seriously, I doubt commercial bars even flush their lines with starsan, it's not really necessary if you're constantly putting beer through the lines. Sanitizing is far more important before fermentation – it's a lot harder to develop an infection after the yeast has done it's job, and especially if there's a significant amount of beer being run through the lines. I just follow the instructions on the BLC bottle to rinse with water after flushing BLC or equivalent through the lines, I don't bother with starsan in the lines and haven't had an issue. From my understanding, cleaners like PBW/BLC are better than starsan for cleaning lines since they take out the biofilms and beer stone to some degree.

Not saying there is anything wrong with running starsan through the lines/taps, just maybe don't let it soak in the lines if you have these taps. There really isn't much reason to soak, it sanitizes after only 1-2 minutes of contact time.
 
True, SS is unnecessary. But for me I only have PBW and SS. PBW is good but then takes rinsing. I used PBW first but rather than rinsing with water, I figure SS is better. Again, clearly for me going forward I will minimize contact time or maybe skip altogether. I would assume contact time becomes cumulative.

Anyway, this whole thing is BS. We should not have to baby Perlick's crappy part choices. Really not acceptable. We should be able to run vinegar through them.
 
I just called Perlick and spoke with a very nice gent. They are aware of the problem, have tested it and have reproduced the problem with low pH beers. He stated, as we suspected above, that there is one part, the flow control "nub" which is made of 303. They have plans to change it to 304 but as of yet have not been able to source a manufacturer to produce that part. He is going to talk with a sales manager to discuss next steps and call me back. Stay tuned.
 
BrunDog said:
I just called Perlick and spoke with a very nice gent. They are aware of the problem, have tested it and have reproduced the problem with low pH beers. He stated, as we suspected above, that there is one part, the flow control "nub" which is made of 303. They have plans to change it to 304 but as of yet have not been able to source a manufacturer to produce that part. He is going to talk with a sales manager to discuss next steps and call me back. Stay tuned.
Click to expand...

Except it's not just that part if the testing here is to be believed.
 
Thanks to all involved in this. We very much appreciate it. I don't have a keezer yet, but plan on building one in the next several months, along with purchasing some Perlicks. I've been watching this thread to determine which faucet to get.

Thanks again.
 
Got 2 replacement faucets dated in jan 2016. Both still have a sulfur smell when product is left over night. Its not as bad as my first two, but any wiff of sulfur smell is not acceptable. When hooking up my replacements faucets I put one on my soda water. (Its only RO water and CO2). Still got the wiff of sulfur next day. I think if you pour a whole beer vs 1 ounce you are much less likely to notice. I did send a follow up email with my Case # attached. I'll post a follow up later.
 
LBussy-
Great job, thanks for all the research and wonderful write up (.PDF). Like others I have not purchased yet, but would like to have the flow control. Wish Perlick would do this for us before purchase, but at least a solution now exits.
 
Thanks for the great work here!

I recently got 2 of these and not sure if I even wanna use them or just return them for 630SS. If I go through the process, does it get rid of sulfur or just adds a protective layer? Ie. will I be able to run sour beer or starsan through the lines afterwards?
 
illmatija said:
Thanks for the great work here!

I recently got 2 of these and not sure if I even wanna use them or just return them for 630SS. If I go through the process, does it get rid of sulfur or just adds a protective layer? Ie. will I be able to run sour beer or starsan through the lines afterwards?
Click to expand...
It gets rid of the sulfur, then re-applys the passivated layer.
 
illmatija, have you actually experienced the sulfur flavour/aroma with your taps? Seems that some people don't encounter the issue at all, so I wouldn't bother with the treatment if you haven't had the issue. The procedure can be done to the taps at any point.

I'd also caution against long soaking of the taps in starsan as it seems this might cause or increase the amount of perceived sulfur.
 
Update: Sent Perlick back a note referencing my case# & telling them my replacement RMA'd faucets still have a sulfur smell, asked if they could provide 304 grade stainless replacement parts or stainless parts that had been properly passivated. Their response...none.

Have to say I'm disappointed in their customer service. Apparently their motto "quality that inspires innovation" is more marketing than a motto. I would NOT buy a flow control faucet again nor will I ever buy a new product from Perlick. A beverage dispensing company should have known better than to use parts that leach something into what they dispense.
 
Well damn -- and here I thought a batch of cider was crappy, but discarding the first 3 oz pour results in a completely acceptable cider. The 650SS was faucet purchased Oct 2014.

Interestingly, my second 650SS, which was purchased more than a year later (Dec 2015) doesn't seem to have this problem with a berliner weiss (pH 3.2) in it currently -- possibly because it's new, or the berliner has a different aroma that masks it, who knows. I'll keep this bookmarked for future reference!

If I remember to check the lot numbers, I'll add them here..

edit for lot numbers:
tap #1, older, cider, sulfur: Lot # A0615G
tap #2, newer, has been handled differently: Lot # A1014G
 
The guy I spoke with never called me back. Shocker. I think it's time to shake his tree again and not be so nice this time. I will gladly point him to this thread and offer up his contact info here if that helps with their "motivation".
 
Perlick is still a superior tap. This would be a place for a reseller to step up and provide added value possibly. I agree Perlick needs to address it but if resellers cannot place pressure on them, we're going to have extremely mixed results trying to do so.
 
Running a month now with Skeeter Pee on my newly passivated faucets. No more sulfur issues and if I was gonna have issues it would be with Skeeter Pee.
 

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