Examining possible solutions to issue of sulfur smell from Perlick 650ss faucets

[gnef]

Well, glad you figured it out!

I would keep these shanks though, you may want to use them to build a Jockey box in the future if you don't already have one (this is what I did with my old chrome plated brass shanks, and now have three jockey boxes that I've built).

 

[Ruvort]

Does anyone know if the sulfer issue also applies to the Perlick 690SS faucets? I am going to be receiving one in the mail soon and just wanted to check if I needed to go through the process with them or not.

Thank you

 

[day_trippr]

If the problem is the material used for the flow compensator, then yes, it'll likely have the same potential problem...

Cheers!

 

[Ruvort]

If the problem is the material used for the flow compensator, then yes, it'll likely have the same potential problem...

Cheers!

Sorry. After rereading my question, I realize my initial post wasn't very clear.

I was trying to ask if anyone knew if the same issues that effect the 650SS version also effect the 690SS?

 

[BrunDog]

I think day_trippr understood you. The problem with the 650 is the use of 303 stainless for at least one of the parts. If the 690 uses 303 stainless, then it likely will have the problem.

That said, I can't imagine that Perlick would be that dumb after the disaster with the 650's.

 

[RevKev]

I haven't had the issue and I just recurved mind a few months ago

 

[Justintoxicated]

The plot thickens... after a few weeks of use, the sulfur smell completely went away - even after letting it sit for up to a week at a time.

Then this afternoon I actually got around to mounting my taps (they had just been loose in the fridge), and check out what the shank looks like.

I think I found the culprit, and I'm no metallurgist, but this doesn't seem like 304 stainless to me.

I don't think the brass / chrome was the reason for sulfur smell, but the fact that you had something do that to your shank definatly suggests that whatever you were running in your tap is / was very acidic!

I had chrome shanks in use for years before they showed any brass, and I was running cider through them!

The smell from one of mine (My Citric carbonated water / tap ) went away on it's own. I never did use the chemicals I bought to "fix the problem" it just kind of went away. However I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually comes back so I may still do the treatment.

I bought my chrome shanks on accident as well. It was sold at SS Perklic tap with shank (So I assumed the shank was stianless too). It can be hard to tell the difference between the two visually, and my SS shanks are actually very slightly magnetic (Need a real strong magnet) while my chrome shanks are not... go figure!

 

[Ruvort]

I haven't had the issue and I just recurved mind a few months ago

Is this in reference to the 690SS or the 650SS?

Thank you

 

[Ruvort]

I think day_trippr understood you. The problem with the 650 is the use of 303 stainless for at least one of the parts. If the 690 uses 303 stainless, then it likely will have the problem.

That said, I can't imagine that Perlick would be that dumb after the disaster with the 650's.

Thank you. I hope that they did solve it with the 690SS. Would it hurt to go through the same process with them just in case?

 

[day_trippr]

I think day_trippr understood you. The problem with the 650 is the use of 303 stainless for at least one of the parts. If the 690 uses 303 stainless, then it likely will have the problem.

That said, I can't imagine that Perlick would be that dumb after the disaster with the 650's.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least. The two faucets and all the parts therein are identical save for a different faucet lever.
Did Perlick ever acknowledge the 650ss problem?

Cheers!

 

[LBussy]

Would it hurt to go through the same process with them just in case?

No, it would not hurt regular SS at all.

 

[Ruvort]

No, it would not hurt regular SS at all.

Awesome! Thank you guys very much.

 

[BrunDog]

Wouldn't surprise me in the least. The two faucets and all the parts therein are identical save for a different faucet lever.

Did Perlick ever acknowledge the 650ss problem?



Cheers!

That depends on what you consider "acknowledge". I spoke with an engineer there and he was aware of the problem and claimed they were working on a fix. But since they have been silent publicly, and no such fix has been presented, we should assume they are trying to cover it up.

I haven't had any issue with mine, and I am stuck with them now considering the investment, but if I were starting from zero, I would not give Perlick my business.

For a couple of bucks to their books they should have offered replacement parts made of 304 and did what's right.

 

[jprank2]

This is a great thread. Thanks for all your work guys.

I noticed this on my 650SS's a few months ago after letting star san sit in them. I have had star san smell like that once before, I believe it was when my water softener needed more salt, or perhaps it was just really old star san, I forget. After pushing the beer through the smell went away, so I just ignored it.

I noticed it again a couple nights ago after cleaning and found this thread. I have a saison (pH=4.3) on tap that has scored well but I don't really like. Last night I tried the saison through a picnic tap and it tasted noticibly brighter. Either it was just me imagining things or it really could be the taps imparting an off flavor/aroma to the beer even though it has a normal beer pH.

Anyway, I'm going to go ahead and do this process on all four of my 650SS taps.

Question- for those of you who did this process with success, what parts did you treat? I believe it was agrazela that said that the flow control lever was discolored after treating.

 

[LBussy]

I did all but the faucet body and bonnet - just for the sake of completeness.

 

[jprank2]

Thanks for your quick reply Lee. Why did you choose to omit the bonnet and body but not the external flow control lever? Did any of the parts you treated show any signs of discoloration compared to the non-treated parts?

Thanks,
John

 

[LBussy]

Well, the second time I did this I threw them all in actually, then fished out the body and bonnet (and handle jacket) and forgot about the lever and other parts because I was being lazy.

*Maybe* there was some discoloration, but it's just a matter of it being a shade darker if anything.

There's three parts I passivated the first time I did this:

• Handle Lever
• Flow Control Barrel
• Flow-Control Compensator

Doing those gave me the results I wanted.

 

[fun4stuff]

Well, the secodn time I did this I threw them all in actually, then fished out the body and bonnet (and handle jacket) and forgot about the lever and other parts because I was being lazy.

*Maybe* there was some discoloration, but it's just a matter of it being a shade darker if anything.

There's three parts I passivated the first time I did this:

• Handle Lever
• Flow Control Barrel
• Flow-Control Compensator

Doing those gave me the results I wanted.

I did these 3 parts. I did not notice any discoloration.

 

[jprank2]

So I tried this for the first time last night and was unsuccessful. Just when I was about to put the parts in the Lye solution the bottom of the Jar broke off. It looks like it was a clean break at the part where the bottom meets the sides.

Has anyone had this issue? I'm using Ball jars. Luckily I had the jar in a pot (double boiler method) so there was no real mess. What did you use for a container?

 

[LBussy]

So I tried this for the first time last night and was unsuccessful. Just when I was about to put the parts in the Lye solution the bottom of the Jar broke off. It looks like it was a clean break at the part where the bottom meets the sides.

Has anyone had this issue? I'm using Ball jars. Luckily I had the jar in a pot (double boiler method) so there was no real mess. What did you use for a container?

Very glad you were not hurt when it broke.

When you add lye to water it generates heat. You have to swirl/stir the solution until it is dissolved or else that can happen. The lye sits on the bottom and superheats that part of the jar which can cause a stress fracture.

I use Ball jars as well because they are generally tolerant of the heat. Just give them a swirl or use a stainless steel spoon to stir it while it dissolves. If you have a stainless steel container (like a milk frothing cup) that would be a good choice that will not break. Make sure not to use aluminum! If you choose plastic, make sure it is something made of polypropylene ("5" in the triangle) as it will take higher heat.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeah, I went to bed pretty upset about this. I was going to give them a chance to fix it, but was not really trusting them after seeing this... just went and was reviewing my order info before I called them... apparently I'm an idiot, and somehow selected the wrong shanks. I picked stainless on almost everything in the kit I bought, but must have missed a dropdown somewhere on the shanks.

Looks like this one was entirely my fault... :smack:

Back to Keg Connection to order the right thing.

Not entirely your fault. It's partially due to KegConnection's crazy website using drop downs for mixed products, chrome and SS at various lengths. Chi Company is even worse, more convoluted and error prone. Clarity people, helps eliminating errors!

 

[jprank2]

Yes I was very careful to stir the powder into the water initially and there were no cracks up until that point. Only after heating the jar did I hear a distinct crack. I picked up the jar to test it, and it didn't drop out. Then later (presumably after it got hotter?) the bottom dropped out. I guess I'll try another jar tonight...

The only other thing I can think of is that the bottom of the jar was a lot hotter than the rest of the jar even in the double boiler configuration. In my setup I didn't have a wire screen separating the jar from the pot.

Perhaps I should heat the water first, and then put the jar in, and take the jar out if I have to heat the water up? It seems safer to get a wire screen of some sort...

 

[sctcts]

So you had the jar sitting directly on the bottom of the pot? That kind of defeats the purpose of using the double boiler, since the bottom of the pot can be much hotter than the water above when heating. As you suggested, the jar probably cracked because the bottom overheated relative to the rest of the jar.

I suggest getting a vegetable steamer or some other method of holding the jar off the bottom. Removing the jar when heating should also work as long as the jar is not too cold when you put it in, might crack if there's too much temperature difference.

 

[bruce_the_loon]

Just read through the thread and applying the remnants of my chemistry degree from the 90s and a bit of googling about passivation procedures.

First thing to consider, acids are not equals. pH measures the H+ ion concentration in the acid solution, but that is only half of the chemical mix in the solution. Take HF (hydrofluoric) and HCl (hydrochloric), two hydrogen halide acids with two completely different corrosive behaviours. An HF solution at the same pH as an HCl solution will etch glass containers while the HCl will not. That's due directly to the free F- ions being a much more powerful oxidizing agent than free Cl- ions.

Using StarSan for passivation instead of citric acid may result in different metal compounds being formed in the passivated layer. Depending on solubility of these compounds, the proper formation of the oxide layer may be inhibited. The phosphoric acid in StarSan will result in insoluble ferric phosphate being formed, while the ferric nitrate formed with the original nitric acid passivation recipe and the ferric citrate from citric acid are more soluble. Presence of the insoluble ferric phosphate precipitated on the metal surface might well hinder the formation of a contiguous oxide layer.

Second thing, acid passivation is a timed process, not a continuous process. The passivated layer is assumed to be a layer of oxidized metal one or two atoms thick on the surface greatly reducing further corrosion from dissolved or atmospheric oxygen. Prolonged exposure to strong acids will slowly corrode both 303 and 304 stainless steels by destroying the passivated layer and replacing it with a new passivated layer from metal atoms lower in the crystalline structure of the alloy.

On 303 stainless, the removal of the sulphides by the acids leave microscopic holes in the machined surface which trap the acid even after a water rinse, allowing deep corrosion to form and exposure of more sulphides to the liquids (beer) being passed through. That is why the NaOH baths are essential to neutralize the acid trapped in the microscopic holes.

The same will happen if StarSan is left to stand in a 303 stainless valve, the phosphoric acid will erode the oxidized layer and expose more sulphide inclusions to the liquid. Once the sulphides are exposed to the liquid, the acid in the beer will form H2S with a more acidic beer forming more H2S faster. Any acidic sanitizer will do the same.

What Johnny-O discovered by accident was also passivation protection, the exposure to air in the taps allowed the undisturbed formation of an oxide layer that is properly sealing the microscopic holes in the 303 formed by the dissolving of the sulphides.

I think the takeway from this overly long post of mine is that acid sanitizers and 303 stainless steel parts don’t mix well. A short exposure won’t cause many problems, but prolonged exposure will continually corrode the SS, exposing more sulphide inclusions and, when beer is reintroduced and stands in contact with the sulphides, H2S will form and taint the beer.

Sanitizing using a base instead of an acid (like NaOH or similar) followed by a mild acidic flush and then a water flush would severely reduce the corrosion of the oxide layer and the possible exposure of fresh sulphide inclusions.

TL/DR – Don’t use acidic sanitizers on your Perlick 650SS taps.

 

[jprank2]

So you had the jar sitting directly on the bottom of the pot? That kind of defeats the purpose of using the double boiler, since the bottom of the pot can be much hotter than the water above when heating. As you suggested, the jar probably cracked because the bottom overheated relative to the rest of the jar.

I suggest getting a vegetable steamer or some other method of holding the jar off the bottom. Removing the jar when heating should also work as long as the jar is not too cold when you put it in, might crack if there's too much temperature difference.

I agree. Something to keep in mind for people who are trying this out for the first time.

When re-hydrating yeast I usually do this so that the starter liquid maintains its temperature longer. Aside from thermal shock this is another benefit of the double boiler method.

I tried it again tonight and was successful. Definitely got a noticeable sulfur smell from the citric acid soak. I avoided cracking the bottom of the jar by picking up the jar an inch and gently stirring the water in the pot every few minutes or so. Then once I got the solutions up to temp I turned down the heat to low.

 

[Justintoxicated]

I just ran through the process using citric acid and lye. I can still run starsan through the taps when i clean them right?

 

[LBussy]

I just ran through the process using citric acid and lye. I can still run starsan through the taps when i clean them right?

I'm not sure you read some of the other information presented here. Pay special attention to the post two above your own.

 

[Justintoxicated]

I'm not sure you read some of the other information presented here. Pay special attention to the post two above your own.

That post is part of the reason why I asked, it's not clear to me. Says short exposure is probably fine but what is short?

I plan to still use starsan to sanitize, I thought the whole passivization process was to eliminate the problems of acids causing the reaction that creates the sulfur smell? If your not going to ever run acid stuff through the tap, then why bother to passivate it as you will never have the problem anyways? Isn't this supposed to fix that problem?

 

[sctcts]

Running starsan through the taps is fine, never caused any issues for me. I don't always do it but if I'm going to leave a line empty for a while I'll cycle starsan through for 15 min then drain it. Just don't leave the starsan solution sitting in the lines for an extended period - this could be hours, could be days, I'm not sure exactly how long it would take. As bruce_the_loon says, the starsan will eventually eat away the protective oxide layer, exposing more sulphides

 

[LBussy]

That post is part of the reason why I asked, it's not clear to me. Says short exposure is probably fine but what is short?

The safest thing is to not use Starsan. Use something like Beer Line Cleaner which is meant to be in contact with this equipment. With respect to @sctcts you can find anyone on the Internet willing to tell you what you want to do is fine. It might be that you'd get away with it. In my mind however there's a chemical reaction taking place whether I'm really quick about it or not. Eventually that will catch up with me. If I avoid it, especially after going through all the trouble to eliminate the issue in the first place, it just makes more sense and provides more peace of mind.

How pissed would you be if you had to disassemble everything and re-passivate the tap later on because you used Starsan for sanitizing?

I thought the whole passivization process was to eliminate the problems of acids causing the reaction that creates the sulfur smell? If your not going to ever run acid stuff through the tap, then why bother to passivate it as you will never have the problem anyways? Isn't this supposed to fix that problem?

Beer is acidic, some beers more so. If you don't have the smells then you don't have to (re)passivate but just running some beverages through the tap is enough to cause the issue for a lot of us.

I rarely have issues when I use the right tool for the job, be it a screwdriver, a hammer, a wrench, or beer line cleaner. When I was a child I thought a steak knife was a multitool. My projects go much better now that I have the right tools.