ethical guidance sought

[Zymurgrafi]

I don't know how you can ask us to help you make the choice.
It is buying probable stolen good.
If you want to do it then do it.

I'm not judging any one.

I ultimately will make the decision of course. Just wanted opinions and other takes on the situation so I can make the most informed decision. I did not mean to raise up a fuss or cause anyone annoyance. I realize this comes up time and again and there are many takes on it. I just was having reservations and wanted a community of like minded (homebrewers) people to give their personal takes on this particular situation to put some perspective on it. I appreciate all the responses and realize now it was perhaps silly to seek others opinions on a decision I must make.

Beg pardon.

 

[Docapi]

I read the OP- that is what I was talking about.

The guy tole him he could either sell them for brewing, or to the scrap yard. He is asking more than he could get at the scrap yard.

Yeah, that is real suspicious- trying to sell it for more money is suspicious as heck. What person would try to sell for more money if that were honest, eh?

I'm sorry, there is absolutely nothing in the OP that rings any bells at all to me.

Some dude has a couple of kegs for sale. He says he'd rather sell them to somebody for homebrewing for a few more bucks than for scrap prices.

 

[olllllo]

If you were basing it off the OP, then why quote orfy?

 

[dj_van_gilder]

To me this is insane. If the breweries are really that concerned they need to charge higher deposits and be less fussy about taking back old kegs.

Is it maybe the distributors sticking to both the customer and the brewer?

"Stolen keg" is just screwy. Have you ever looked through the chain link fence at a beer distributor's joint to think about 'stealing' a keg? Good luck.

They have started to charge higher deposits now. They have these plastic bands on them, kind of like hospital bands, and they charge $40 for a deposit.

 

[Germey]

Did anyone else see this in Cheesefood's article? "New barrels cost in the range of US$70 each, but Sabco resells kegs it has bought, cleaned and reconditioned for about US$50."
I know that the cost has gone up a lot in the past 4 years, but how much? Has it doubled? Tripled?
On one of the other long threads about keg ethics, I threw out a $120 price figure for new kegs (a figure I got from the probrewer board) and was roundly criticized for being about 1/2 way there.
Why is it so hard to get a clear answer on this? Why does a Sabco brewpot cost about $350?
None of the traditional rules of economics seem to apply on this subject, which makes me suspect a conspiracy somewhere.

 

[Germey]

I read the OP- that is what I was talking about.

The guy tole him he could either sell them for brewing, or to the scrap yard. He is asking more than he could get at the scrap yard.

Yeah, that is real suspicious- trying to sell it for more money is suspicious as heck. What person would try to sell for more money if that were honest, eh?

I'm sorry, there is absolutely nothing in the OP that rings any bells at all to me.

Some dude has a couple of kegs for sale. He says he'd rather sell them to somebody for homebrewing for a few more bucks than for scrap prices.

Are we really debating the veracity of the claims made by a craigslist poster? Remember the Kegerator that will save you $300 (or was it $300,00)

 

[olllllo]

The article was from 2003.
IIRC Sabco no longer sells directly to home brewers and the retailer links on the site don't work.

EDIT Kegs.com... Sabco.stores.yahoo.net works

I'm sure the price is largely dependent on volume. AB's price should be significantly cheaper than a craft brewery.

Finally, I'll go by what Brewtopia has posted. He's in a brewery startup right now. I don't think they WORLD KEG CONSPIRACY got to him yet. What do you think?

 

[Zymurgrafi]

I read the OP- that is what I was talking about.

The guy tole him he could either sell them for brewing, or to the scrap yard. He is asking more than he could get at the scrap yard.

No actually what I said was, he said you could buy them to use for homebrewing etc., or buy them and then resell for scrap. Sorry if that was not clear.

olllllo, I do not wish to buy stolen merchandise and nor I do not want to collect a bounty. As a side, I did momentarily have a bizarre paranoid thought that this was some sort of a "sting operation" and I would then be turned in for the bounty if they were indeed stolen. Yes I know that is pretty whacko... I tend to get paranoid.

Apparently one of the kegs is missing the post for screwing in the coupler (tap) so I suppose it would need reconditioning before a brewery used it anyway.

Anyway, again, silly of me to post my problem. Thanks again, I'll figure it out on my own.

 

[Docapi]

If you were basing it off the OP, then why quote orfy?

I was responding to the part of Orfy's post that I quoted. Therefore, I quoted it to show what my response was referring to. That does not preclude, by any means, the remainder of the discussion, including the OP.

If you notice, I talked in my post about "seeing no evidence"" and even made a cliffs notes version of what I read is said OP.

Since Orfy's post had nothing to it other than the statement I claimed, it would seem rather obvious that I must have been referencing more than just his post.

knights of Gambrinus-

I see your clarification, now I understand better your concerns. I read the OP as saying that if the guy didn't sell them to you he planned on selling them for scrap. That is why I did not see anything suspicious- If I or most people have something, they are going to try to sell it first, then get rid of it however they can.

Are we really debating the veracity of the claims made by a craigslist poster?

No, I was debating the jumping to the conclusion that somebody is up to illegal behavior based on no evidence, or any reason to believe so.

 

[Orfy]

I see no evidence, or really any real reason at all to jump to that conclusion.

Some dude has a couple of kegs for sale. He says he'd rather sell them to somebody for homebrewing than for scrap.

I see nothing suspicious about that at all.

In the last day and a half on this forum I have read about cars and motorcycles being stolen- should everybody assume that a car that is for sale is "probably stolen"??

There was also an offer made by a poster to give- yes, give away a bunch of grolsch bottles for free! Should we assume that they are stolen as well?

Gee whiz, talk about jumping to conclusions.

If they are not stolen then the seller can or should be able to.

• Produce a receipt for the purchase of the items.
• Give a receipt for the sale of the items.

If he can't or won't then they are probably stolen.

Some one please do a FAQ for buying kegs!!!!

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

If paying a deposit and keeping is stealing, then why don't they fill out a police report. They have your information. ... because it's not illegal? Seems that way to me. Please enlighten me.

 

[bigjohnmilford]

If the kegs have enough info on them so you contact the brewery/distributor who owns them, then ethically, the guy who cleaned out his garage or whatever should contact them to inform them he has found some of their property and ask them what they want to do with the kegs.

If there is no way to contact the owner of the kegs, they are free game.

Ethically, it should be the same as finding something missing. If it is very valuable or significant, you should try to find the owner, turn into the police, etc. If it is not very valuable or significant but has contact info on it, contact the owner. If is not very valuable or signficant and has no contact info (and there is no lost and found, etc.), then you can do with it what you want.

If you find a $5 bill on the ground, then you don't need to post flyers around town about a missing $5 bill. I'd say it's the same way with kegs. If there's 2 unidentified dusty kegs sitting in an old garage, then you should feel free to buy them and use them for brewing. If you go to this guy and the kegs say: Brewery Name/Distributor Name/etc. all over it, I would pass the deal up and tell the guy he should contact the owners of the keg first.

-Jon

+1 that about as well put as it can be.

 

[Docapi]

If they are not stolen then the seller can or should be able to.

• Produce a receipt for the purchase of the items.
• Give a receipt for the sale of the items.

If he can't or won't then they are probably stolen.

Some one please do a FAQ for buying kegs!!!!

In that case, 99% of the stuff I own you would think to be stolen. I don't have the receipts anymore for the vast majority of my stuff. As far as giving a receipt for the sale, anybody can write a receipt on a piece of scrap paper.

 

[Germey]

The article was from 2003.
IIRC Sabco no longer sells directly to home brewers and the retailer links on the site don't work.

EDIT Kegs.com... Sabco.stores.yahoo.net works

I'm sure the price is largely dependent on volume. AB's price should be significantly cheaper than a craft brewery.

Finally, I'll go by what Brewtopia has posted. He's in a brewery startup right now. I don't think they WORLD KEG CONSPIRACY got to him yet. What do you think?

What did he post? I did try searching, and even used that cool new trick on Google I learned today, but couldn't find anything. I am accustomed to being able to find ANYTHING on the www if I set my mind to it, and I can't find an accurate quote for a new keg, which irritates me in an OCD kind of way.
I'm being snide about the world conspiracy, but the economics and politics of the current kegged beer distribution system are seriously out of whack, and heavily weighted in favor of the big guys. Therefore, I say it is our duty to try and appropriate at least two BMC kegs. One for our use and then donate one to a local brewpub.

 

[Orfy]

In that case, 99% of the stuff I own you would think to be stolen. I don't have the receipts anymore for the vast majority of my stuff. As far as giving a receipt for the sale, anybody can write a receipt on a piece of scrap paper.

Well at least you have tried to ensure you have done your bit.
I'm guessing with most of your stuff you do not have good reason to consider it may be stolen.
I buy 99% of my stuff new.
the 1% that isn't then I get a receipt. That way I have proof of purchase.
I don't want to buy stolen goods.

1. because it is unethical
2. because I don't want to get caught with it.

We all know that there are many stolen kegs around.

 

[Docapi]

Well at least you have tried to ensure you have done your bit.
I'm guessing with most of your stuff you do not have good reason to consider it may be stolen.
I buy 99% of my stuff new.
the 1% that isn't then I get a receipt. That way I have proof of purchase.

I think you missed my point-

If I were to put an ad on Craigslist to sell something, using your logic my stuff would be "most likely stolen", since I cannot produce a receipt for it. I (and I have to think most people) don't save my receipts long enough to still have it by the time I have tired of the item enough to sell it.

My whole point in the first place was that there was no reason that I could see (since I misunderstood the "sell them for scrap" statement) to jump to the conclusion that the kegs were "most likely stolen".

 

[iamjonsharp]

If paying a deposit and keeping is stealing, then why don't they fill out a police report. They have your information. ... because it's not illegal? Seems that way to me. Please enlighten me.

It is understood that you are buying the beer, not the keg. Just because the distributors/breweries don't fill out police reports for the stolen kegs doesn't mean its not illegal.

If the percentage of stolen kegs is small enough, the distributor/brewery could lose more money filling out police reports than simply replacing the kegs with new ones. For example, at my job with Albemarle County, we used to charge small fees for certain types of inspections/plan review revisions (around $60 or so). Well, it turned all the time and manhours it took to collect the fee was more than the $60, so we just axed the fee altogether.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

It is understood that you are buying the beer, not the keg. Just because the distributors/breweries don't fill out police reports for the stolen kegs doesn't mean its not illegal.

If the percentage of stolen kegs is small enough, the distributor/brewery could lose more money filling out police reports than simply replacing the kegs with new ones. For example, at my job with Albemarle County, we used to charge small fees for certain types of inspections/plan review revisions (around $60 or so). Well, it turned all the time and manhours it took to collect the fee was more than the $60, so we just axed the fee altogether.

I didn't know it cost money to fill out a police report. I don't think it does, so why not wait until you have 10 or so kegs missing, then fill them all out at the same time? Because they can't, the police would laugh and say "they paid a deposit in case they didn't bring em back"

 

[iamjonsharp]

I didn't know it cost money to fill out a police report. I don't think it does, so why not wait until you have 10 or so kegs missing, then fill them all out at the same time? Because they can't, the police would laugh and say "they paid a deposit in case they didn't bring em back"

There is no fee to pay the police, but it costs the brewery man-hours, and they'd still probably never get the kegs back. The amount of your stuff you get back when you get robbed is slim to none.

 

[Docapi]

The amount of your stuff you get back when you get robbed is slim to none.

Yeah, normally, but when the "robber" is kind enough to leave his name and contact info I gotta think the recovery rate might go up a bit

 

[iamjonsharp]

Yeah, normally, but when the "robber" is kind enough to leave his name and contact info I gotta think the recovery rate might go up a bit

Yeah, with what I've been reading, it looks like states and local governments have been handling this with enacting high deposit fee requirements and making it illegal for scrap metal buyers to buy any kegs. It simply may no longer be profitable for people to forgo their deposit to sell it off (for scrap metal at least). It may not be illegal, but it is definitely unethical.

 

[WOP31]

To the OP, here is a easy solution, tell the guy that you would like to look at the kegs, if you get there and have an uneasy feeling about it tell him that they won't work for your spaceship that you are building and that you'll have to keep looking around for a proper fuel tank.

Cheers
ib4tl

 

[Brakeman_Brewing]

To the OP, here is a easy solution, tell the guy that you would like to look at the kegs, if you get there and have an uneasy feeling about it tell him that they won't work for your spaceship that you are building and that you'll have to keep looking around for a proper fuel tank.

lol thats not a bad idea

 

[olllllo]

If I were to put an ad on Craigslist to sell something, using your logic my stuff would be "most likely stolen", since I cannot produce a receipt for it.

Go look in some of the other areas in craig. Do you really think the womon want to be compensated with roses?

 

[Special Ed]

I swear I saw a TV commercial advertising a free stainless steel keggle (some assembly required) when you purchase 15 gallons of budweiser?

Maybe I imagined it... who knows

 

[olllllo]

What did he post? I did try searching, and even used that cool new trick on Google I learned today, but couldn't find anything. I am accustomed to being able to find ANYTHING on the www if I set my mind to it, and I can't find an accurate quote for a new keg, which irritates me in an OCD kind of way.
I'm being snide about the world conspiracy, but the economics and politics of the current kegged beer distribution system are seriously out of whack, and heavily weighted in favor of the big guys. Therefore, I say it is our duty to try and appropriate at least two BMC kegs. One for our use and then donate one to a local brewpub.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=382599&postcount=66

You'll note that it follows your post.

 

[Zymurgrafi]

To the OP, here is a easy solution, tell the guy that you would like to look at the kegs, if you get there and have an uneasy feeling about it tell him that they won't work for your spaceship that you are building and that you'll have to keep looking around for a proper fuel tank.

Cheers
ib4tl

Ha. I may just do that... :fro:

Yeah, well, to reclarify. My intent was not to debate whether or not kegs not returned for deposits are stolen or not. I believe if you pay a deposit which is only a fraction of the cost and you do not return it knowingly and purposefully, you stole it. I was not really clear and my title was perhaps misleading. I tried to think about it before I posted so I would be clear, but I suppose my thinking was not clear ergo, my question was not clear.

I just had some reservations about the fact that the seller pointed out you could buy it from him and sell it for scrap, that seemed on reflection kind of odd. However, I suppose if he is asking for more than the price of scrap (which I did not know the amount of at the time of posting) than it is not all that strange, he is trying to get a better deal than the scrap yard. If what the seller stated is true (and I have no way of knowing, nor do I have evidence to doubt him) than he has some "junk" he wants to clean out, does not know to whom it belongs and would like someone to take it of his hands +get some money for it. My thinking is getting fuzzier still each trip to the keg I take...


Perhaps tomorrow I will have a clearer revelation...

 

[Docapi]

Go look in some of the other areas in craig. Do you really think the womon want to be compensated with roses?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I haven't seen this mentioned, yet, but it's worth discussion here, I think. Some distributors won't give you your deposit back without a receipt. I went with a friend to return two kegs, and he had lost the receipt. However, he did fill out the requisite paperwork upon purchasing the beer, including his name, address, phone number, and driver's license number. The distributor had also lost his info (I've seen this VERY often when returning kegs legitimately - it seems that distributors don't care to keep a lot of paperwork on file). So, he couldn't get the deposit back, the store wouldn't even take the kegs for free, and he was stuck with two 1/2 barrels. I told him to try returning them a second time, and if he couldn't get rid of them, I'd pay him the amount of the deposit and take the kegs.

Is this stealing? IMHO, not if you can't GIVE them back to the distributor!!!

 

[Germey]

Wow, look at this guys, apparently they are making them out of KEVLAR now!
You can direct fire them and everything.
http://cgi.ebay.com/15-5-Gallon-Emp...ryZ67137QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem