Estimating IBUs in a whirlpool-only beer?

[Homercidal]

So I'm planning an American Wheat beer to try out a quick boil process and I plan to add FWH and/or Whirlpool hops, but I'm not trusting Beersmith's IBU predictions.

Does anyone have any personal experience with these techniques?

My recipe for a 3 gallon batch is basically 3 lbs 2-row and 3 lbs Flaked Wheat. I plan to BIAB and hit the burner right after the mash is done, get a quick boil and some hot break, then add hops and shut it down and let it steep for a few minutes before chilling.

I'm just not sure how many hops I need to add to get a decent IBU without being too bitter, or not balanced. I haven't decided on the hops yet, but I should have plenty of higher alpha american style hops in teh freezer and I know I have plenty of homegrown Chinook and Cascade and a huge bag of some wild hops that someone picked and gave me. They are pretty decent in pale ales as aroma hops.

 

[Oginme]

After comparing several of my heavily whirlpool hopped beers with basically equivalent 'IBU' recipes without whirlpool hops, I moved the utilization rate in BeerSmith from 50% down to around 30%. This has seemed to be about right for my system and process.

Then again, with whirlpooling procedure means a lot, IMHO.

 

[ong]

I don't trust those numbers, either. I've made beers with no bittering but massive whirlpool additions, and they taste as sweet as pineapple juice. Delicious, and really interesting, but very little bitterness to control sweetness.

My usual approach is to try to hit the entire desired IBUs with a 60 minute addition, then whirlpool purely for flavor and aroma.

 

[olotti]

I don't trust those numbers, either. I've made beers with no bittering but massive whirlpool additions, and they taste as sweet as pineapple juice. Delicious, and really interesting, but very little bitterness to control sweetness.

My usual approach is to try to hit the entire desired IBUs with a 60 minute addition, then whirlpool purely for flavor and aroma.

I think this is the way to go about it doing whirlpool only additions. I still throw in a 60,10,5 addition to get ibus then a whirlpool/hopstand. It's interesting some guys that have sent beers off to be lab tested for ibus that use this technique come in much lower in ibus than what was predicted by brewing software. So really with whirlpool additions skies the limit really as long as it's below 175 when the whirlpool starts otherwise adding at any higher temps will add bitterness.

 

[imasickboy]

Temperature is important. Whirlpool for an hour @180 degrees, and you'll bitter it right up. Whirlpool for an hour @140 degrees, and you'll not get the bitterness.

Time is equally important. Whirlpool for 10 minutes will get you little IBU's even at a high temp, while an hour will give you lots, at the same high temp.

Using common sense in making a comparison to boil hops, and the lower utilization rate as mentioned above, and you'll likely be fine.

I've heard that the next version of Beersmith, (in beta), is supposed to address this issue. I can't be bothered to confirm that, but it's just what I've heard.

 

[jcav]

Homercidal, I have been reading Gordon Strong's books and in "Brewing Better Beer" he talks about FWH (first wort hops) in detail. His observations is that it doesn't provide any aroma even though some people think it does give added aroma." What is there is very refined, smooth, and pleasant, but is very low in intensity." He goes on to say that in recipe formulation he gets huge hop flavor contributions from FWH.

He writes: "The flavor I get is higher than an equivalent 20 minute addition. Since I think of bittering and aroma hops more in terms of ounces than IBUs, I tend to consider FWH as providing as much as 50 percent more flavor than the same amount of 20 minute hops. For example, if I want the flavor contributions from 1.5 ounces of hops at 20 minutes, I'll use an ounce of first wort hops."

I just tried this FWH technique with the Honey Brown Ale I just made, and I can really tell the difference in hop flavor. Smooth bitterness, blended, strong, wonderful. I will be doing this on a lot of my recipes from now on. Hope this helps a little.

John

 

[murphyslaw]

This is the best information I've found on the topic:

"Three temperature profiles that seem to be popular among homebrewers are just off boil range 190–212 °F (88–100 °C), the sub-isomerization range 160–170 °F (71–77 °C), and a tepid hop stand range 140–150 °F (60–66 °C). The 190–212 °F (88–100 °C) range will allow essential oils with higher flashpoints an easier time to solubulize into the wort and also will allow some alpha acid isomerization to occur with the best estimates of between 5–15% utilization. Some homebrewers will keep their kettle burner on low to keep the temperature of the wort elevated above 200 °F (93 °C) during their extended hop stands which would better emulate the conditions in commercial whirlpools. A hop stand in the 160–170 °F (71–77 °C) range will basically shut down the alpha acid isomerization reaction and the lower temperatures will reduce the vaporization of the essential oils. Homebrewers can use their wort chillers to bring the wort down to this range before adding the knockout hops or they can add a second dose of knockout hops. The 140–150 °F (60–66 °C) range will once again reduce vaporization of the low flashpoint oils, but may take longer to get the same amount of essential oils extracted."

https://byo.com/mead/item/2808-hop-stands

Then again, http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/01/the-hop-stand-hot-vs-chilled-wort-exbeeriment-results/

I think Denny and Drew did a similar experiment but I can't find the results.

 

[Homercidal]

Thanks all. Lots of good information. I really wanted to try a very short small batch process for filling some 2.5 gallon kegs I have. I am looking to see how long it will take me to:

Heat mash water
Mash Rest
Lift bag and start heating boil
Boil only enough to get hot break
Chill as quickly as I can while getting good hop utilization

Perhaps a bittering addition as FWH is key to getting a reasonable amount of bitterness with this method. My whirlpool additions haven't added nearly as much IBU's as BS has predicted before, and the numbers you guys gave makes more sense.

I forgot to inventory my hops last night. I'll try and check on this at lunch and maybe have a recipe this afternoon. I'm excited to see how short the brewday can be without going completely no-boil. I'm willing to buy/grow more hops if necessary to achieve a quicker brewday. Looking to see if DMS is actually noticeable in some styles too.

 

[Homercidal]

I ended up going with 1 ounce of homegrown Chinook and boiled for about 10 minutes. At flameout I added 1 ounce of homegrown Cascade and let steep for a few minutes while I set up my chiller. I then strained the leaf hops out and started recirculating the wort through the chiller to sanitize before turning on the water.

The wort seemed sweet and bitter. Probably about right for an American Wheat. I liked the amount of hop flavor at this point, but we'll see how much of that sticks around after primary.

Looked for a Watermelon Wheat to try this weekend, but only found Oddside Ales in the 6-pack and the lady at the store wouldn't break it up. Another store would break up 6-packs, but he didn't have any watermelon wheat! I guess I'll just have to make my own and see what happens.

 

[Homercidal]

Finally found a WW to try. Oddside Ales had one at a store in Cadillac.

It was actually pretty good! Looking forward to adding some watermelon to this recipe and see what happens.

 

[jcav]

Finally found a WW to try. Oddside Ales had one at a store in Cadillac.

It was actually pretty good! Looking forward to adding some watermelon to this recipe and see what happens.

Make sure to let us know how it turns out!

John

 

[Homercidal]

I added the juice from most of a good-sized melon this weekend. Wife got a bit to take to the beach and I pureed the rest and strained it into a 3 gallon secondary. It sure seemed like a lot!

Then I realized most people were using that much in a 5 gallon batch, and I had a half a batch of beer!

After realizing that I poured a bunch out and then racked the beer on top of it. It was very pink! Looked like a Strawberry Daiquiri!

Still fermenting, but I'll be trying it within the week I think(hope).

 

[jcav]

Sounds like it's gonna turn out with plenty of flavor. Keep us posted. I am interested in your results!

John

 

[Homercidal]

Sounds like it's gonna turn out with plenty of flavor. Keep us posted. I am interested in your results!

John

Yeah, I may have too much watermelon. I checked last night and it was slowly bubbling away. Still plenty of pink. Hopefully it will dry out. I wouldn't want it to be too sweet.

 

[Homercidal]

Well, I transferred a bunch of beer this weekend. I racked the Watermelon Wheat Short Boil Half Batch into a 2.5 Gallon Torpedo Keg. I drew a small sample with a small bottlign wand (because someone stole my thief!) and was surprised to find that it was not pink at all. Really, just a clear light beer color.

During transfer it was still very light and clear. It didn't have much pink tint if at all. I may have been visually thrown off by the large amount of watermelon puree on the bottom of the carboy.

It was actually pretty tasty! Not too much watermelon flavor after all. Just a nice, light, wheat beer. Pretty clear for a wheat, but I wasn't going to Hefeweizen look anyway.

Can't wait to taste this when it's carb'ed up!

 

[Homercidal]

So I've been tasting this for a while now. Just last night poured a glass to have with dinner and it was VERY light and clear and some of the watermelon flavor has left it.

Honestly it was mostly like a highly carbonated LITE beer. Actually pretty good for quaffing on a hot day. Not like a craft beer much now though.