Estimated OG Extract vs Partial Mash

[csantoni]

I have several extract brews under my belt (pilsner in the fermenter, a wit and an IPA carbing in the bottle right now) and am trying to understand how partial mashing would affect my ingredients & techniques. For my next beer, I want to make the following English-style bitter. It's a bit of a frankenbeer because I ordered the wrong extract but I think it'll still be good. My question is, since the Maris Otter can(should) be mashed instead of steeped, why does my Estimated OG skyrocket when I switch the recipe to partial mash in Beersmith? Apologies if I should ask this in/on a Beersmith forum.

Extract Est OG: 1.043
Partial Mash Est OG: 1.053

For consistency, I entered the Steep step for extract recipe as 152F for 60 mins, which is basically mashing.
The Mash step when changing to partial mash is also 152F for 60 mins.
My equipment profiles are consistent across both methods in terms of volumes and boil-off.


Recipe: FrankenBitter
Style: Best Bitter
TYPE: Extract

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size (fermenter): 2.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.043 SG
Estimated Color: 7.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 31.4 IBUs
Boil Time: 105 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU Volume
1 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter [Steep] (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 33.3 % 0.08 gal
1 lbs DME Sparkling Amber (Briess) [Boil] (11.0 SRM) Dry Extract 2 33.3 % 0.08 gal
1 lbs Spraymalt DME - Amber [Boil] (10.0 SRM) Dry Extract 3 33.3 % 0.08 gal
6 g Fuggles [4.50 %] - Boil 105.0 min Hop 4 9.7 IBUs -
8 g Fuggles [4.50 %] - Boil 70.0 min Hop 5 13.6 IBUs -
2 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 70.0 mi Hop 6 3.0 IBUs -
6 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 15.0 mi Hop 7 5.1 IBUs -
2 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 8 0.0 IBUs -
1.0 pkg Nottingham Yeast (Lallemand #-) [23.66 ml] Yeast 9 - -

(edit: correct some ingredients in the pasted recipe)

 

[VikeMan]

I don't use BeerSmith, but my guess would be that if you specify "steep" for a base malt, it gives you little or no gravity. (I wouldn't expect that to change just because you set time and temp to be mash-like.)

What gravity does it give you if you remove the Maris Otter completely?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

BeerSmith is likely using different efficiency percentages for the extract recipe and for the partial mash recipe.

Does BeerSmith include the gravity point contribution for each ingredient? If so, can you provide that information?

 

[csantoni]

When I remove the MO it drops Est OG to 1.040 for both methods.

 

[csantoni]

I don't see a way to get the gravity point contribution for each ingredient. Is it possible that the software assumes that only specialty/non-mashed grains go in the steep step? That would mean it ignores their contribution to Est OG even if they are mashable and you're extracting some sugars. I just don't want to end up with a crazy high OG (that's what happened with my Pilsner, which is now an Imperial Pilsner because the PPG numbers for my extracts were off).

 

[VikeMan]

When I remove the MO it drops Est OG to 1.040 for both methods.

That shows you that it was giving you some (small) gravity contribution from the M.O. as a "steeped" grain, but not as much as if mashed. I would call it a partial mash and call it a day. The partial mash answer looks about right.

 

[csantoni]

That shows you that it was giving you some (small) gravity contribution from the M.O. as a "steeped" grain, but not as much as if mashed. I would call it a partial mash and call it a day. The partial mash answer looks about right.

Thanks, that's exactly the guidance I was looking for. Sounds like for future recipes I'll need to use the partial mash method if any of my steeping grains are mashable. I'm still dialing in all the volumes and times on my equipment.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

You may also want to look into what you need to do to set up a good environment for your mash.

BeerSmith has an solid reputation for good estimates - but you have to get the switches and assumptions (like a good mash environment) right.

 

[IslandLizard]

I don't see a way to get the gravity point contribution for each ingredient.

http://beersmith.com/Grains/Grains/GrainList.htmThere you can look up how many points (ppg) each of your (mashed or steeped) ingredients adds.

Alternatively, in Beersmith, you can turn each ingredient quantity to 0 and note the difference in gravity on the slider below.

Steeping Maris Otter at 170F (way above the typical 146-160F mash/saccharification temp range) will not give you any or as much conversion as you could get at 154F (within mash temp range).
For optimal mashing you can't do it too thinly or too thickly, while you need to make sure the pH is within reason, 5.2-5.6. The mash temp should be kept in the 146-160F range, higher temps making your wort less fermentable.

 

[csantoni]

You may also want to look into what you need to do to set up a good environment for your mash.

BeerSmith has an solid reputation for good estimates - but you have to get the switches and assumptions (like a good mash environment) right.

Yeah, I feel confident in the calculations from BS, but I know my own equipment numbers influence them greatly. That's why I want to make sure I understand how the numbers change when I change the process.

 

[IslandLizard]

When I partial mashed I used a 2 gallon kitchen pot to keep the milled grist and water in. Stirred well and made sure to have the right mash temp. Placed the lidded pot inside a pre-warmed, but turned off oven, at 152-156F. About 20' in I'd stir the mash, and take her temp and make an adjustment if needed.

 

[csantoni]

When I partial mashed I used a 2 gallon kitchen pot to keep the milled grist and water in. Stirred well and made sure to have the right mash temp. Placed the lidded pot inside a pre-warmed, but turned off oven, at 152-156F. About 20' in I'd stir the mash, and take her temp and make an adjustment if needed.

I'm going to do something similar. I hadn't considered using the oven, that's a great idea. I also have to decide exactly how to sparge this since it won't be in a dedicated MLT. Batch sparging for sure.

 

[balrog]

Use the oven method. It's fawesome. Turn on to "warm", then off before putting in the "mash" pot. I did many a partial mash w extract batches using a 5 gallon pot and the oven. The more you partial mash, the larger the mash, the more stable the temp due to having higher thermal mass to change. And the oven. Did I mention using the oven is great?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Partial mash can also be done as BIAB: Easy Partial Mash Brewing (with pics)

The more you partial mash, the larger the mash, the more stable the temp due to having higher thermal mass to change.

+1.

 

[csantoni]

Did I mention using the oven is great?

OK, OK, I get it!

 

[IslandLizard]

I also have to decide exactly how to sparge this since it won't be in a dedicated MLT. Batch sparging for sure.

If you're not using a mesh bag, strain it through a strainer or large sieve over another large pot or small bucket. Some bits of grain and powder may come through, just pour the drained wort through heap of grain again. The heap of grain is your filter.

Batch sparge by adding sparge water to the grist heap returned to a pot or small bucket. And strain the same way as above. Repeat, one more time if you want.

Boil all the combined wort for the time you want, 30-60'.
Add your extracts at the end of the boil after flame out, and dissolve them with good stirring. Keep above 160-170F for a few minutes to pasteurize.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

There's also an advanced technique for late additions where a small-ish amount of the "top-up" water is used to dissolved the DME/LME, then add that slurry just before the end of the boil.

 

[csantoni]

There's also an advanced technique for late additions where a small-ish amount of the "top-up" water is used to dissolved the DME/LME, then add that slurry just before the end of the boil.

I have always boiled my extracts and have had pretty good results with that, but I'll keep the late addition technique in mind.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I have always boiled my extracts and have had pretty good results with that, but I'll keep the late addition technique in mind.

Same here - I rarely add DME late, yet get beer color that's appropriate for the style. Generally, I add DME at either flame-on (if I'm not steeping) or just after steeping is finished (wort temp is around 160F).

The same technique (making a slurry in a side pot) works well when adding DME at the start of the boil.

 

[csantoni]

I made some adjustments to my recipe and brewed this last night. Hit my mash temp right on the money, stuck it in the oven and checked it a couple times and stirred. Sparged and hit my target post mash gravity and pre-boil gravity exactly as well. After boil, my volume was a little high and therefore my OG was .004 low but overall a great brew night.

Something I don't think enough people talk about when going to all-grain is how much FUN it is. It's more work, sure, but it felt more real than all-extract batches. I'll definitely be looking to expand my equipment to handle all-grain.