Escape from Stuck Fermentation Mountain - AE to the Rescue!

[Gavin C]

I've now seen two more threads in the last week since first seeing this where this thread would have been of use to the OP.

Can this thread be stickied by a mod as I'm sure @passedpawn is reluctant to sticky his own thread.

I'm only one voice in the crowd so perhaps others will disagree.


Please Sticky the thread and delete this post.

 

[abbysdad2006]

I second the sticky

 

[passedpawn]

Thought I would drop these two links here to Kai Troester's site. He's done a lot of the legwork for us. Thanks Kai.

I concluded 85-90% attenuation from alpha amylase at low temperatures by extrapolating the data available at the following two places on his site. If I find additional information, I'll post. Seems like such an easy thing to test, and I guess I did here in this thread, but a much better experiment would be useful.

The Theory of Mashing > Starch conversion enzymes
Effect of mashing conditions > Temperature and Time

 

[jammin]

Thought I would drop these two links here to Kai Troester's site. He's done a lot of the legwork for us. Thanks Kai.

I concluded 85-90% attenuation from alpha amylase at low temperatures by extrapolating the data available at the following two places on his site. If I find additional information, I'll post. Seems like such an easy thing to test, and I guess I did here in this thread, but a much better experiment would be useful.

The Theory of Mashing > Starch conversion enzymes
Effect of mashing conditions > Temperature and Time

thanks. 85-90% attenuation is much closer to what i have experienced myself over several trials. when you stated that it would not stop i was curious as to why my results have been different

 

[passedpawn]

thanks. 85-90% attenuation is much closer to what i have experienced myself over several trials. when you stated that it would not stop i was curious as to why my results have been different

Where did I state that it would not stop?

 

[jammin]

Where did I state that it would not stop?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7220058&postcount=44

i hadnt heard of limit of fermentation before i wanted to learn more about it. thats why i asked to for references. no need to get defensive

 

[passedpawn]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7220058&postcount=44

i hadnt heard of limit of fermentation before i wanted to learn more about it. thats why i asked to for references. no need to get defensive

Just trying to understand what you're talking about. Can you see why I'm asking?

The only way to stop it is to kill the yeast. You'll need heat to do that.

It'll keep fermenting to the limit of fermentation, which is about 85% of the OG. For you, that's 1.012.

thanks. 85-90% attenuation is much closer to what i have experienced myself over several trials. when you stated that it would not stop i was curious as to why my results have been different

 

[ejf063]

Ok. I'm on the band wagon. Four weeks ago, I did an ipa which finished much higher than expected- 1.080. Used wlp008 with a healthy starter. Got about 72% attenuation so it's down to 1.023. It's done. (It was actually at 1.030 about a week and a half ago. So I tried to rouse, warmed it up to 71*.... That's what actually got me to where I am today).
I Just added about 1.75 tsp AE. We'll see what happens.
Thanks for the information on this thread. It gave me the confidence to try to turn this beer into something drinkable. I will post back.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that sulphites stink and that I don't like wines that contain sorbate, but it's not like they put ingredients on real wine bottles.

Would maltose be broken down by A.E. or does it depend the type?

In other news, the Doctor ok'd the sampling of my last batch of Amorita's American-Belgian (M.O.base 1.5%sm, +10% honey ), but I think it turned out in the 1.080-1.005(7) (couldn't read through the Krausties). Warrior(b)/Glacier(hs+2013) Glacier(dry2014).

I brought in two bombers to work today.. not like I'm driving home but there will be plenty of people to give sips to...

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Thought I would drop these two links here to Kai Troester's site. He's done a lot of the legwork for us. Thanks Kai.

I concluded 85-90% attenuation from alpha amylase at low temperatures by extrapolating the data available at the following two places on his site. If I find additional information, I'll post. Seems like such an easy thing to test, and I guess I did here in this thread, but a much better experiment would be useful.

The Theory of Mashing > Starch conversion enzymes
Effect of mashing conditions > Temperature and Time

Makes me want to try a cold brew mash. Just gargle some starsan before drinking. Seriously though, You'd think you could dominate the natural flaura by using an ultra low temp Sac. or other and strictly controlling the temps?

 

[passedpawn]

Makes me want to try a cold brew mash. Just gargle some starsan before drinking. Seriously though, You'd think you could dominate the natural flaura by using an ultra low temp Sac. or other and strictly controlling the temps?

You still need a hot mash to solubilize the starches (large sugar molecules). Otherwise the enzymes can do nothing.

 

[ejf063]

So 24 hours later and ..... Nothing. A few extra bubbles that haven't grown since this morning. Looks like this now barleywine will be great thanksgiving. Thanksgiving 2016

 

[Brettomomyces]

Jumping onto this thread as I have two beers going with amylase right now.

First beer was an alt that I brewed with the intention of step mashing at 144, 158 and 168. I have an e-herms rig, and my water pump cut off unexpectedly during the mash so the heating element kept rising as the wort pumped through the herms coil. I got 45 minutes at 144 and then it rose all the way to 172 over about 35-40 minutes, so not a lot of time for a beta rest. 6L starter of wlp036, which was about 70% viability but I was also shooting for a hybrid pitch rate and made plenty of yeast. O2 with my oxygen concentrator. OG was 1.051, held at 14.5C for three days then raised to 21C over 5 days, held there another 5. FG at 1.016. Not low enough!!

Added 2tsp of amylase and 2tsp of yeast energizer. Chamber is now at 17.5C after a slow fall.

Second beer is an english barleywine. Fair amount of crystal malt but not over the top, and some home made candy syrup as well (from the sugar + DAP thread in the recipes section). 1.106 down to 1.029, but could be dryer. 73% with wyeast 1968. This beer did not get O2 (machine wasn't working) but was pitched onto a cake from a 1.058 oatmeal stout and got regular aeration. I added 1tsp amylase and 1tsp energizer for 5gals. I can already see krausen forming on one of the barleywines and airlock activity in both after 8 hours. Will report results when these stabilize.

 

[Brettomomyces]

Ok the followup!

The altbier went down significantly. After 3 days it had dropped 3 points. After 7 days it had gone down 10 points! Way more than I was expecting.

So my impression on it overall though, is that the malt flavor feels less strong than I remember but the overall beer is not thin or watery, it still has a decent mouthfeel to it and is now significantly drier and more bitter. I would imagine the 10pt drop just upped the bittering impact significantly. The body and mouthfeel of it really surprised me though, as I waited until after the hydro sample to get a taste. I'm letting nature crash cool it for me in the garage until Saturday and then gelatin fining this batch.

On the barleywine, no change. I'm counting this up to not enough viable yeast available because they were in secondary for a week at that point. I don't necessarily feel too bad about it though, after seeing the results on the Altbier. I still see some bubbles on one of the carboys that I originally mistook for krausen but must simply be gas blowing out from the addition of the nutrient/amylase. They are both still showing slow airlock activity as well. This is 5' under and in a cool but stable temperature location.

 

[passedpawn]

Ok the followup!

The altbier went down significantly. After 3 days it had dropped 3 points. After 7 days it had gone down 10 points! Way more than I was expecting.

So my impression on it overall though, is that the malt flavor feels less strong than I remember but the overall beer is not thin or watery, it still has a decent mouthfeel to it and is now significantly drier and more bitter. I would imagine the 10pt drop just upped the bittering impact significantly. The body and mouthfeel of it really surprised me though, as I waited until after the hydro sample to get a taste. I'm letting nature crash cool it for me in the garage until Saturday and then gelatin fining this batch.

On the barleywine, no change. I'm counting this up to not enough viable yeast available because they were in secondary for a week at that point. I don't necessarily feel too bad about it though, after seeing the results on the Altbier. I still see some bubbles on one of the carboys that I originally mistook for krausen but must simply be gas blowing out from the addition of the nutrient/amylase. They are both still showing slow airlock activity as well. This is 5' under and in a cool but stable temperature location.

OG/FG please. Thanks.

 

[Brettomomyces]

Altbier 1.051 to 1.016 to 1.006 after amylase

Barleywine 1.106 to 1.029. No change after amylase. Barleywine was also a few weeks older than alt and in secondary.

 

[passedpawn]

Altbier 1.051 to 1.016 to 1.006 after amylase

Barleywine 1.106 to 1.029. No change after amylase. Barleywine was also a few weeks older than alt and in secondary.

Regarding the altbier, that sounds about what I'd expect. See this. Thanks for the response.

Add fresh yeast to the barleywine. Please report back what happens.

 

[Brettomomyces]

I think a definite conclusion from my trial is that the quantity of enzyme required is less than anticipated. I achieved a result of roughly 88% ADF with my addition of enzyme, at 1tsp per 5 gals.

On the barleywine, I think I will leave one carboy as is and pitch some slurry into the other. I have some pretty fresh slurry from a high attenuating English strain (custom blend from Inland Island for my LHBS, Quirky's).

The resultant body on the altbier was surprising to me, as it was not nearly as thin as expected. Being that the enzyme is alpha amylase, is it possible that the enzyme created some dextrins in the process that are adding to body/mouthfeel?

 

[passedpawn]

I think a definite conclusion from my trial is that the quantity of enzyme required is less than anticipated. I achieved a result of roughly 88% ADF with my addition of enzyme, at 1tsp per 5 gals.

I asked my nerdy son about this today. He's only 18, but he's pretty good at chemistry and biology and stuff like that. Here's our exchange (email, he's off at college). Not sure what to make of all this, but when he comes home in a week he's going to show me the math apparently. Uh oh.

Me: Are enzymes "consumed"? That is, let's say I have 10 starch molecules, and I add 10 alpha amylase enzymes molecules that somehow reduce the starches to glucose or sucrose or something. Now, are those enzymes free now to work on some other starch molecules, or are they "spent"? That's what I wonder.

Alex: The substrate will bind with the enzyme by coming into its active site, and the affinity for the substrate to bind depends on a number of factors. Then the enzyme will use different methods of catalysis such as acid-base or nucleophilic catalysis to reduce the substrate into some type of product. The enzyme then goes back to its original chemical composition and state and is ready for catalysis once again. Hope this helps.

Me: Holy cow that's cool. So an enzyme can work more than once. I guess the rate of enzymatic activity is much higher if you use a lot more though.

Alex: Yeah if you want the maximum velocity of the enzyme, you use as much substrate as possible, like totally flood the enzyme with substrate. It's funny because I learned how to mathematically derive the concepts we're talking about right now. So it's not just theory or conversation, I can prove it

Me: I'd like to see that when you come home. Show me how to do it.

Alex: Haha okay. I can tell you what the equation is and you can try to look it up. "Michaelis-Menten equation". It'll be easier when I show you though, it's pretty long and complex.​

 

[ten80]

Sounds right. Enzymes are not consumed, degraded, and do not loose enzymatic potential in an ideal system. Our beers are not quite an ideal system because there are yeast and other organic compounds in solution that may cause the enzymes to denature or precipitate out of solution, plus the beer may not be at the ideal temperature or pH for optimum enzyme activity.

These factors play into the Michaelis-Menten equation and the resulting "Vmax" or theoretical maximum rate of enzymatic activity. However, you must consider that this equation relates to enzyme activity rate and not the extent to which an enzyme will degrade a certain starting concentration of a substrate. In other words, even an enzyme with a low Vmax will eventually catalyze the degradation of a high concentration substrate, assuming that the enzyme is not denatured or removed from solution.

I have the EVEREST of stuck-mountain fermentations. I accidentally brewed a stout using 32 lbs of ADJUNCT MALTS with little to no base malt. Mashed at 154F for an OG of 1.065, and the FG was 1.035 after 1 month. It is thick, black and syrup-like in consistency. The fun part is that I brewed 12 gallons "thick-bodied" stout.

This seems like a great place to post my results. I have little to lose by adding amylase enzyme and a fresh yeast starter. Will it be drinkable? I suspect it will be a roast-bomb!

 

[eigua]

This seems like a great place to post my results. I have little to lose by adding amylase enzyme and a fresh yeast starter. Will it be drinkable? I suspect it will be a roast-bomb!

Did you end up using the amylase to try to rescue this?

 

[55x11]

I accidentally brewed a stout using 32 lbs of ADJUNCT MALTS with little to no base malt...

This seems like a great place to post my results. I have little to lose by adding amylase enzyme and a fresh yeast starter. Will it be drinkable? I suspect it will be a roast-bomb!

Wait, how did you manage to do this? What is your grain bill?
Please share!

You could always call it "bitter barley soda".

 

[ten80]

Wait, how did you manage to do this? What is your grain bill?
Please share!

You could always call it "bitter barley soda".

Funny story... I bought a bunch of brewing equipment on craigslist and the guy also gave me a "bag of malt for a stout recipe that I have forgotten." I knew something was terribly wrong when I essentially had roasted barley syrup after mashing. I ended up with something like 12 gallons of 1.060 OG squid ink that stalled at 1.030. As far as I can tell I brewed a beer with over 30 pounds of roasted barley and crystal malts!

I split the 12 gallons into two carboys. To the first I added an active sour beer culture in one half (Brett, pedio, lacto, etc) and it dropped the FG to 1.021 after 10 months (last week). Drinkable, but damn dark and the roast overwhelms the funk. I blended some of this into a Kriek-style sour at 10% by volume and the result is a spectacular dark fruity sour. The remainder was blended with 5 gallons of plain 2-row wort (still fermenting).

I added a heaping 1/3 cup of amylase enzyme to the second half and then added some active US-04 yeast krausen. I have yet to test the FG on this half, but I suspect it dropped substantially due to the visible fermentation activity that ensued. The question is whether the beer will be drinkable and free of infection! I hope to post an update in the next month or so.

NOTE FOR AMYLASE USERS:
Amylase enzme is produced in an industrial fermentation and I have read from several sources that the enzyme powder may contain bacteria and that it is best to use amylase prior to boiling to avoid the risk of infecting your beer. That said, you are probably OK adding amylase enzyme once the pH of the beer has fallen below 4.5 pH units and there is >3% alcohol present.

Has anyone experienced contamination of their beer following addition of amylase enzyme?

 

[Shtumbles_McShlurrin]

This thread saved my altbier.

My FG was stuck at 1.021 for weeks with a target of 1.014

Having unsuccessfully tried every combination of rousing, temperature increase & re-pitching, the OP guided me to this thread. My LHBS recommended a product called Pilsner Enzyme for the task. I can't confirm, but I'm guessing this is just a branding term for Alpha Amylase Enzyme. The advice provided here has achieved instant results in relation to reaching my target FG. Three days after the enzyme addition, my FG is at 1.014, which is exactly where it is supposed to be. I have not packaged the beer yet, so the results are purely technical at this point.

I hope I never have to use this technique again, as it highlights an error in my mash process. Knowing that there is a solution is priceless, however.

 

[Shtumbles_McShlurrin]

One week in and the gravity has dropped further still to 1.010

This is not ideal. The target was 1.014

Added to this, fermentation also appears to be ongoing. Now I'm concerned the altbier will be too dry with a bitter bias.

 

[passedpawn]

One week in and the gravity has dropped further still to 1.010

This is not ideal. The target was 1.014

Added to this, fermentation also appears to be ongoing. Now I'm concerned the altbier will be too dry with a bitter bias.

I think it will ferment 85-90% (assuming that was AA you added). That gets you to ~ 1.007 ish.

But I make beers that finish nearly that low and they are fine after full carbonation. I have an IPA on tap right now at 1.007, but I don't think you'd know it. My pilsners finish down there.

In Dusseldorf, there are a bunch of altbier breweries, and they all brew different altbiers. Eurige is the most popular one (they pile hot steaming spent grains outside the brewery in the street, and you can smell from blocks away). Theirs alt on the bitter side.

 

[Shtumbles_McShlurrin]

I think it will ferment 85-90% (assuming that was AA you added). That gets you to ~ 1.007 ish.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying.

In Dusseldorf, there are a bunch of altbier breweries, and they all brew different altbiers. Eurige is the most popular one (they pile hot steaming spent grains outside the brewery in the street, and you can smell from blocks away). Theirs alt on the bitter side.

Uerige is the style I'm going for actually (with a touch of Füchschen). Sure, it has a firm hop bite, but also enough residuals to give it some body. My hop quantities were pushing the (beersmith) envelope already.

 

[passedpawn]

One more data point: I added a tsp of AA to a light lager I made a couple of months ago. The AA was added right at the beginning of fermentation (I used a bunch of solubulized rice in the recipe, so I added enzymes to get complete conversion of those starches). Beer went from 1.045 down to about 1.008. The point I'm making is it did not over-attenuate with the AA.

The beer fermented at 50F and was finished at the 3 week mark, which is when I normally keg these.

 

[ten80]

Ok. Thanks for clarifying.
Uerige is the style I'm going for actually (with a touch of Füchschen). Sure, it has a firm hop bite, but also enough residuals to give it some body. My hop quantities were pushing the (beersmith) envelope already.

You can bump the body back up with some malto-dextrin without affecting the flavor.

 

[Cameron McKellar]

Long time lurker bumping this thread as I know find myself atop the stuck fermentation mountain!

Brewed the following Rye/Vienna Lager back in early April:

Brew date: April 4/19

Ingredients
Amt Name Type %/IBU
10 lbs 12.0 oz Viking Vienna Malt (4.3 SRM) Grain 86.9 %
12.0 oz Viking Munich Malt Light (8.1 SRM) Grain 6.1 %
12.0 oz Viking Rye Malt (3.6 SRM) Grain 6.1 %
2.0 oz Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 1.0 %
0.88 oz Magnum [11.70 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 28 IBUs
300mL Saflager Lager (DCL/Fermentis #W-34/70) (Slurry) Yeast

OG: 1.058
Fermentation temp: 52F

Target Mash temp: 153F (only found out later my thermometer pen was reading 6F below, so my mash temp was more like 159F-160f!!!)

I knew something was up when two weeks later I took a sample and it read 1.028, however all signs of fermentation had stopped! Again at this point I didn't realize I was mashing so high and didn't attribute the poor attenuation to underpitching as I more or less re-pitched an entire fresh yeast cake/slurry into this lager.

So I finally found this thread and found me some Alpha Amylaze Enzyme (https://stillspirits.com/products/alpha-amylase-enzyme-sachet-4g).

May 1st - Added 2tsp Alpha Amylase Enzyme directly to the carboy and saw some activity right away, sitting at room temp ~65F
May 6th - Took a sample, read 1.020....but since then I have taken 2 more samples and it seems to be leveling off at 1.020.

Now do I need to add more enzyme or possibly warm up the carboy? Did I pitch the wrong enzyme? Do I need to pitch some fresh yeast?

I was hoping to at least get the beer down below 1.020 as I'm only sitting at 65% apparent attenuation.

Thanks!