ESB with Chevallier Malt,Open fermentation?

[Rosmucman]

I'm planning on brewing a Chevallier ESB this weekend with just touch of carafa 2 to get the colour I want.
Crisps Chevallier 99%
Carafa II 1%
EKG 40g at 60m
Styrian Goldings 35g at 20 and 20g at 5
Maybe some Centennial at flame out,I haven't decided yet
Wyeast 1469 West Yorkshire Ale
Any feed back,who has used this malt before?
I'm also thinking of doing an open fermentation,has anyone done it with the 1469?
Any tips on how to go about it?

 

[Rosmucman]

Sorry Abv 5% and IBU's around 37

 

[bierhaus15]

I'm on my third sack of Chevallier. Stuff makes amazing beer and provides malt forward and toasty flavors, but there are a few watch-outs. First, expect beers made with this to finish sweeter and at higher FG than modern UK malts. Even with high attenuating yeast and low mashing, the beers will still have a rounded sweetness. After a few 100% Chev beers, I started including around 8% invert sugar in the recipe and really prefer the beers with sugar. 92% Chev and 8% no 2 invert makes a smashing pint.

Also, beers with this malt tend to tolerate a higher hopping rate than others. 30 BU seems more like 20, and so on. Chevallier also can impart a rough-cereal flavor when the beer is young. Beers brewed with it hold up very well with aging and I preferred my bitters brewed with it around 1.5 months in the keg. It also took longer than normal for my beers to fully clear using the malt.

That said, your recipe looks fine, although I might consider including some type of sugar if you are looking for a more hop-forward, balanced pint. Otherwise, it will be a malt bomb. I actually like a small amount of Centennial hops with UK ones, the floral citrus and lemon notes are a great pairing with the more herbal UK hops.

Per yeast, WY1469 is a good choice, just be sure to aerate well. Given the small amount of fermenting wort, I don't think the open ferment will make a huge difference, but it wouldn't hurt so long as things are kept sanitary. Good luck.

 

[Rosmucman]

I'm on my third sack of Chevallier. Stuff makes amazing beer and provides malt forward and toasty flavors, but there are a few watch-outs. First, expect beers made with this to finish sweeter and at higher FG than modern UK malts. Even with high attenuating yeast and low mashing, the beers will still have a rounded sweetness. After a few 100% Chev beers, I started including around 8% invert sugar in the recipe and really prefer the beers with sugar. 92% Chev and 8% no 2 invert makes a smashing pint.

Also, beers with this malt tend to tolerate a higher hopping rate than others. 30 BU seems more like 20, and so on. Chevallier also can impart a rough-cereal flavor when the beer is young. Beers brewed with it hold up very well with aging and I preferred my bitters brewed with it around 1.5 months in the keg. It also took longer than normal for my beers to fully clear using the malt.

That said, your recipe looks fine, although I might consider including some type of sugar if you are looking for a more hop-forward, balanced pint. Otherwise, it will be a malt bomb. I actually like a small amount of Centennial hops with UK ones, the floral citrus and lemon notes are a great pairing with the more herbal UK hops.

Per yeast, WY1469 is a good choice, just be sure to aerate well. Given the small amount of fermenting wort, I don't think the open ferment will make a huge difference, but it wouldn't hurt so long as things are kept sanitary. Good luck.

I might add some Lyles Golden Syrup so for the inverted sugar as I know I can get my hands on it

 

[Steveruch]

I'm on my third sack of Chevallier.

Where did you get it?

 

[user 246304]

Ditto.

 

[JacktardBrewmeister]

Carafa II tends to be dark. I used it in my Doppbockale beer and it made it pretty dark. Then again I used a lot of it like a *******, so that is not as big of a concern in your case since you're using so little. It usually gives a roasted dark malt flavor, so in your case it could work. I would just worry about how dark it might get. Though, again, you're using so little it will most likely be trivial. I am also not familiar with Chevallier malt so I have no real suggestion for you there.

As far as the fermentation goes, your best guess is as good as mine... again, not much of an answer for that either. Good luck! b^^

 

[nick_a]

I do a semi-open fermentation with 1469 pretty much every time, by using sanitized foil instead of an airlock until things slow down, at which point I add the airlock. It’s great. I love that yeast.

 

[user 246304]

I'm on my third sack of Chevallier. Stuff makes amazing beer and provides malt forward and toasty flavors, but there are a few watch-outs. First, expect beers made with this to finish sweeter and at higher FG than modern UK malts. Even with high attenuating yeast and low mashing, the beers will still have a rounded sweetness. After a few 100% Chev beers, I started including around 8% invert sugar in the recipe and really prefer the beers with sugar. 92% Chev and 8% no 2 invert makes a smashing pint.

Also, beers with this malt tend to tolerate a higher hopping rate than others. 30 BU seems more like 20, and so on. Chevallier also can impart a rough-cereal flavor when the beer is young. Beers brewed with it hold up very well with aging and I preferred my bitters brewed with it around 1.5 months in the keg. It also took longer than normal for my beers to fully clear using the malt.

That said, your recipe looks fine, although I might consider including some type of sugar if you are looking for a more hop-forward, balanced pint. Otherwise, it will be a malt bomb. I actually like a small amount of Centennial hops with UK ones, the floral citrus and lemon notes are a great pairing with the more herbal UK hops.

Per yeast, WY1469 is a good choice, just be sure to aerate well. Given the small amount of fermenting wort, I don't think the open ferment will make a huge difference, but it wouldn't hurt so long as things are kept sanitary. Good luck.

Coming late, but Bierhaus, intrigued by Chevalier and didn't know where to obtain it in the States. Any guidance? And how would you (or anyone) compare Chevalier to Golden Promise?

Edit: It does get old, lousy memory. Had no idea I posted the same question basically, above. Well, I guess - same things....?

 

[Steveruch]

Coming late, but Bierhaus, intrigued by Chevalier and didn't know where to obtain it in the States. Any guidance?

I located it on the websites of Keystone and Defalcos, but the cost of shipping was more than the cost of the grain.

 

[user 246304]

Hey Steve - thanks for the link. Their grain's more expensive than I pay with Morebeer, but their flat shipping is only $7.99. I might be missing something?

 

[bierhaus15]

IMO, there really isn't anything that compares to Chevallier for flavor... maybe Paul's Mild Malt, but even then the Chev has a stronger toasted/grainy character. The wort color difference is noticeable as well, Chev wort color goes light amber.

I get my Chevallier through BSG, but for non brewery orders I was told Keystone had full sacks with $8 flat rate shipping.

The latest malt I've been using is Crisp's Plumage-Archer. Another historical variety and is also quite tasty. Within the same vein, I'd recommend trying some of the Baird's Heritage Collection malts as well, their Greenwich crystal (75L) is absolutely stunning and I like their Finest MO better than Thomas Fawcett for bitters/pale.

 

[user 246304]

IMO, there really isn't anything that compares to Chevallier for flavor... maybe Paul's Mild Malt, but even then the Chev has a stronger toasted/grainy character. The wort color difference is noticeable as well, Chev wort color goes light amber.

I get my Chevallier through BSG, but for non brewery orders I was told Keystone had full sacks with $8 flat rate shipping.

The latest malt I've been using is Crisp's Plumage-Archer. Another historical variety and is also quite tasty. Within the same vein, I'd recommend trying some of the Baird's Heritage Collection malts as well, their Greenwich crystal (75L) is absolutely stunning and I like their Finest MO better than Thomas Fawcett for bitters/pale.

Great information, Bierhaus, thanks. It's cool to see they're bringing back these historical barleys (I think it was in, what, Briggs, maybe, that I saw some reference to Plumage-Archer, or maybe even DeClerck?). And As I've got about a sack and a half of the Fawcett MO downstairs, I'd love to compare the Baird's. Really excited to look into this, thanks.

Oh, except I'm not brewing anymore. I'm being schooled on how to get white rocky heads of HH on 10L of prepared DME. Stern taskmaster, yeast.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Chevallier has been brought back by Crisp, so in principle any supplier who can get Crisp stuff should be able to get hold of it - at a price. However, it's being produced in tiny amounts at the moment - it was a few fields' worth, I suspect they may be expanding to 1-2 farm's worth, so you may have to wait until next harvest.

It's not cheap though - in the UK it goes for about 50-60% more than the equivalent Crisp Otter at retail level.

Talking to a brewer who has been one of the leading lights of the heritage barley movement here, he was rather underwhelmed by Plumage-Archer. Not that it's unpleasant, it just didn't really offer much beyond Otter in his opinion. I've got one of his beers with it, but not tried it yet. It was bred in 1905 and with Spratt-Archer came to dominate British barley between the wars, whereas Chevallier dominated for most of the 19th century, at least until tax changes in 1880 encouraged more imports of foreign barley.

I've not tried the fancy Baird Otter, but if you've not tried Warminster then you should, it's generally regarded as the blue riband maltings here.

My personal theory is that the reason crystal malt was invented and came into use was because brewers were disappointed with the flavour of newfangled barleys like Plumage-Archer and imports and wanted something they could add to 20th-century pale malt to give it that "old-fashioned" (Chevallier) taste. Crystal only came into widespread use for bitters after WWII, although Whitbread started using it in 1928. I've only used Chevallier cut with Otter because I was trying (unsuccessfully) not to overwhelm the heritage hops I was using. The result was a bit like the malt part of Doom Bar. I've got some left, might be fun to put it in a NEIPA but I'll probably wimp out, I do have various other heritage hops though.

 

[Miraculix]

Chevallier has been brought back by Crisp, so in principle any supplier who can get Crisp stuff should be able to get hold of it - at a price. However, it's being produced in tiny amounts at the moment - it was a few fields' worth, I suspect they may be expanding to 1-2 farm's worth, so you may have to wait until next harvest.

It's not cheap though - in the UK it goes for about 50-60% more than the equivalent Crisp Otter at retail level.

Talking to a brewer who has been one of the leading lights of the heritage barley movement here, he was rather underwhelmed by Plumage-Archer. Not that it's unpleasant, it just didn't really offer much beyond Otter in his opinion. I've got one of his beers with it, but not tried it yet. It was bred in 1905 and with Spratt-Archer came to dominate British barley between the wars, whereas Chevallier dominated for most of the 19th century, at least until tax changes in 1880 encouraged more imports of foreign barley.

I've not tried the fancy Baird Otter, but if you've not tried Warminster then you should, it's generally regarded as the blue riband maltings here.

My personal theory is that the reason crystal malt was invented and came into use was because brewers were disappointed with the flavour of newfangled barleys like Plumage-Archer and imports and wanted something they could add to 20th-century pale malt to give it that "old-fashioned" (Chevallier) taste. Crystal only came into widespread use for bitters after WWII, although Whitbread started using it in 1928. I've only used Chevallier cut with Otter because I was trying (unsuccessfully) not to overwhelm the heritage hops I was using. The result was a bit like the malt part of Doom Bar. I've got some left, might be fun to put it in a NEIPA but I'll probably wimp out, I do have various other heritage hops though.

Up until now, I brewed two beers with chevallier and I fully agree that it tastes very unique. My recipes did not contain any Crystal, but if somebody would have offered me those beers without mentioning the ingredients, I would have said that there is certainly quite an amount of Crystal involved. It really tastes Crystal-ish.

Really interesting malt. I am glad that I still have some kilos flying around, might be great in a dark mild.

 

[user 246304]

Chevallier has been brought back by Crisp, so in principle any supplier who can get Crisp stuff should be able to get hold of it - at a price. However, it's being produced in tiny amounts at the moment - it was a few fields' worth, I suspect they may be expanding to 1-2 farm's worth, so you may have to wait until next harvest.

It's not cheap though - in the UK it goes for about 50-60% more than the equivalent Crisp Otter at retail level.

Talking to a brewer who has been one of the leading lights of the heritage barley movement here, he was rather underwhelmed by Plumage-Archer. Not that it's unpleasant, it just didn't really offer much beyond Otter in his opinion. I've got one of his beers with it, but not tried it yet. It was bred in 1905 and with Spratt-Archer came to dominate British barley between the wars, whereas Chevallier dominated for most of the 19th century, at least until tax changes in 1880 encouraged more imports of foreign barley.

I've not tried the fancy Baird Otter, but if you've not tried Warminster then you should, it's generally regarded as the blue riband maltings here.

My personal theory is that the reason crystal malt was invented and came into use was because brewers were disappointed with the flavour of newfangled barleys like Plumage-Archer and imports and wanted something they could add to 20th-century pale malt to give it that "old-fashioned" (Chevallier) taste. Crystal only came into widespread use for bitters after WWII, although Whitbread started using it in 1928. I've only used Chevallier cut with Otter because I was trying (unsuccessfully) not to overwhelm the heritage hops I was using. The result was a bit like the malt part of Doom Bar. I've got some left, might be fun to put it in a NEIPA but I'll probably wimp out, I do have various other heritage hops though.

Thanks, Northern. This is precisely the kind of stuff I wish I just knew, or had a roadmap to learning.

So, absent crystals, how did brewers then get their ambers to copper colors into their bitters (perhaps they didn't) - amber, brown, black malts?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thanks, Northern. This is precisely the kind of stuff I wish I just knew, or had a roadmap to learning.

So, absent crystals, how did brewers then get their ambers to copper colors into their bitters (perhaps they didn't) - amber, brown, black malts?

Those were the coloured malts available - although don't forget that a)Chevallier is darker than modern barleys and b) malt would probably have been a bit darker then anyway thanks to less control over malting. Also colour was probably not at the forefront of their concerns.

But after the tax changes of 1880 then the main way to adjust colour was with caramel or Invert No.3 - sugar is an incredibly important part of British brewing history that is rather deprecated now thanks to CAMRA's war on adjuncts. Hmm - I have a nagging feeling there was a change in ~1858 that allowed some sugar, can't look it up now.

Also don't forget that bitter is essentially a 20th-century invention.


Plus wood may have transferred some colour, and oxidation. Going wildly OT, if you've not seen it you'll like this series of several articles on US versus Baltic wood : http://www.beeretseq.com/the-wood-of-old-america-and-cork-porter/

 

[trav77]

Thanks, Northern. This is precisely the kind of stuff I wish I just knew, or had a roadmap to learning.

So, absent crystals, how did brewers then get their ambers to copper colors into their bitters (perhaps they didn't) - amber, brown, black malts?

Historically a lot of the colour contribution was from invert sugars and/or brewers caramel. Check out Shut Up About Barclay Perkins... there's a ton of interesting info there re: historical British ales & lots of recipes.

 

[user 246304]

Those were the coloured malts available - although don't forget that a)Chevallier is darker than modern barleys and b) malt would probably have been a bit darker then anyway thanks to less control over malting. Also colour was probably not at the forefront of their concerns.

But after the tax changes of 1880 then the main way to adjust colour was with caramel or Invert No.3 - sugar is an incredibly important part of British brewing history that is rather deprecated now thanks to CAMRA's war on adjuncts. Hmm - I have a nagging feeling there was a change in ~1858 that allowed some sugar, can't look it up now.

Also don't forget that bitter is essentially a 20th-century invention.


Plus wood may have transferred some colour, and oxidation. Going wildly OT, if you've not seen it you'll like this series of several articles on US versus Baltic wood : http://www.beeretseq.com/the-wood-of-old-america-and-cork-porter/

Thanks Northern, brings perspective. Right, I'd not been thinking that bitters aren't as venerable as pale ales, and I'd love to know, would really love to know, what authentic pales were like. Having read through Graham Wheeler's British Real Ale book, as I think we discussed, it surprised me how many of the recipes contain sugar; but I think it was Eric from the other site who said that he uses invert sugar for everything in that book. I've never used sugar and would like to mess with it (demerara, anyone?).

Thanks for the wood info. Some time ago you challenged me to go Baltic wood and Brett in an RIS, and once I can do the rudimentary things - you know, like being able to raise a top crop, without having to ask a million questions on what exactly a brown head looks like - I'll take up your challenge, cross-contamination fears be damned.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'd love to know, would really love to know, what authentic pales were like. Having read through Graham Wheeler's British Real Ale book, as I think we discussed, it surprised me how many of the recipes contain sugar; but I think it was Eric from the other site who said that he uses invert sugar for everything in that book.

You're thinking like the BJCP again, when in Britain the same beer could be described as a IPA, Pale Ale, Light Ale and Bitter, all the while evolving and changing. But I'm sure you could find some 19th century pale ale recipes if you wanted, although you'd have to choose between stock and mild pale ales...

I got halfway through writing something on Wheeler's use of sugar - in short, you have to remember that he was writing a generation ago when homebrewers had access to a much restricted pool of ingredients, and putting white sugar in the recipe might be the difference between it getting made and not. To be fair, he did change some of his recipes through time as better ingredients became available. Among a certain generation of British homebrewers his word is gospel though!

 

[user 246304]

You're thinking like the BJCP again, when in Britain the same beer could be described as a IPA, Pale Ale, Light Ale and Bitter, all the while evolving and changing. But I'm sure you could find some 19th century pale ale recipes if you wanted, although you'd have to choose between stock and mild pale ales...

I got halfway through writing something on Wheeler's use of sugar - in short, you have to remember that he was writing a generation ago when homebrewers had access to a much restricted pool of ingredients, and putting white sugar in the recipe might be the difference between it getting made and not. To be fair, he did change some of his recipes through time as better ingredients became available. Among a certain generation of British homebrewers his word is gospel though!

Thanks on the Barclay link, Northern. Much like the other British site, I should probably just spend time reading through everything. I've seen the wealth, just need to tap it.

On Wheeler and sugar in the book - it wasn't and would never be an assumption he was making do with the times. I honestly thought this was what the commercial brewers do, but was surprised as I didn't know that; that's all. I didn't even know there's another edition of his book available and it's on my cart. Very reasonable as well, I'd say.

I am interested in brewing traditional Victorian era beers. Hell, to be truthful, I'd like to trace some kind of line from Georgian through Victorian times! You've provided some help there, and I need to go back and read what you said. I don't know how helpful the Durden book is, though it's on my cart (this one, however, is quite expensive).

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Bypass Wheeler's newest addition and go direct to the actual historically researched sources-- at barclayperkins! Ron Pattinson has a trove of information on his blog, and he has a ton of books he has assembled too which are much more worth the purchase!

Here is a link to his "Store" where you can buy most of his books (digital or print on many): http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/andrewsblag

And considering your last request about Georgian and Victorian times, check this book out in particular: http://www.lulu.com/shop/ronald-pattinson/1909-beer-style-guide/paperback/product-21819878.html


Lastly, when you get further down the rabbit hole with regards to English brewing traditions, you can have your mind totally blown away with regards to Scottish brewing (his Scotland Volume 2 shatters everything espoused about "Scottish Ales" and brewing for years by the US homebrew community. He just decided to rely on silly primary documents from the original brewing records to document what happened in Scottish brewing.

You have lots of (great) reading ahead of you if you so choose....

I didn't even know there's another edition of his book available and it's on my cart. Very reasonable as well, I'd say.

I am interested in brewing traditional Victorian era beers. Hell, to be truthful, I'd like to trace some kind of line from Georgian through Victorian times! You've provided some help there, and I need to go back and read what you said. I don't know how helpful the Durden book is, though it's on my cart (this one, however, is quite expensive).

 

[Steveruch]

Hey Steve - thanks for the link. Their grain's more expensive than I pay with Morebeer, but their flat shipping is only $7.99. I might be missing something?

My shipping charges being more than the cost of the grain was based on only buying ten pounds, which wouldn't qualify for flat rate shipping.
I since found out that my former LHBS could order a 55# sack for a reasonable cost per pound, but I knew that I was moving soon and it was too much. Not to mention the fact that I won't be brewing again until we finish most of our schoolie conversion.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

On Wheeler and sugar in the book - it wasn't and would never be an assumption he was making do with the times. I honestly thought this was what the commercial brewers do, but was surprised as I didn't know that; that's all. I didn't even know there's another edition of his book available and it's on my cart. Very reasonable as well, I'd say.

Hmm - depends a lot on what you're interested in, he's mainly about cloning contemporary beers (or at least, those that were around at the time he was writing). Sounds like Ron's stuff might be more your thing - aside from his website, you can get a flavour of them from Google Books (although obviously I would encourage you to buy the full versions, the ebooks aren't expensive).

Sugar was important historically, to the extent that some commercial recipes will have had 3-4 different specialist brewing sugars in some cases, separately adjusting for gravity, colour, flavour etc, but that's a bit of a different thing. Times change, we live in great times for beer and homebrew and we don't to make some of the compromises that Wheeler's readers had to in the past.

I am interested in brewing traditional Victorian era beers. Hell, to be truthful, I'd like to trace some kind of line from Georgian through Victorian times! You've provided some help there, and I need to go back and read what you said. I don't know how helpful the Durden book is, though it's on my cart (this one, however, is quite expensive).

I think the Durden book is meant to be OK, I've not got it but I see that it seems to be a bit cheaper here if you order it direct from their website, they also give a source in California. They seem to be a bit stronger on the practicalities of turning archives into beer, from DIY amber etc malts to adjusting for commercial sparge lengths, whereas Ron is more of a pure archivist.

 

[Beer666]

Would like to do a SMASH with this malt and was thinking of EKG and Thames Valley yeast. Does this sound OK for an English bitter?

 

[Miraculix]

Would like to do a SMASH with this malt and was thinking of EKG and Thames Valley yeast. Does this sound OK for an English bitter?

Yes!

 

[kmarkstevens]

FYI, Northern Brewer and Midwest now carry Chevallier at pretty standard prices and free shipping if you hit their hurdle levels.

The other Crisp Heritage malts are not yet carried. One step at a time...

 

[Steveruch]

FYI, Northern Brewer and Midwest now carry Chevallier at pretty standard prices and free shipping if you hit their hurdle levels.

The other Crisp Heritage malts are not yet carried. One step at a time...

Hopcraft has it for only $1.79 a pound, but the last time I checked they were out of stock.