English Lager?

[cire]

Interesting. You don't have any more photos from Nimmo do you?

I've been back from Brazil for a while., And been to Columbia since.

Know someone who holidayed in Columbia and had nothing but praise for the people and the country.

Yes, I do. There were 5 or 6 Brewing books and took about 90 shots. Like many other local breweries at that time, they malted their own, identified by county and graded in bins marked N and F, hops were listed by grower/supplier.

Some of their beers were much darker than the recipes suggest, but have seen no evidence of the colourings they must have used.

 

[patto1ro]

Know someone who holidayed in Columbia and had nothing but praise for the people and the country.

Yes, I do. There were 5 or 6 Brewing books and took about 90 shots. Like many other local breweries at that time, they malted their own, identified by county and graded in bins marked N and F, hops were listed by grower/supplier.

Some of their beers were much darker than the recipes suggest, but have seen no evidence of the colourings they must have used.

Priming sugars and caramel additions would account for the colour. It's sadly usual that these colour adjustments don't appear in brewing records.

Any chance of getting hold of those other photos?

 

[cire]

Priming sugars and caramel additions would account for the colour. It's sadly usual that these colour adjustments don't appear in brewing records.

Any chance of getting hold of those other photos?

Yes, I'm sure we can sort out some arrangement.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

@Misplaced_Canuck Why no MO in a lager?

The flavor of MO is not something that I would find appealing in a lager. Too malty for my tastebuds.

 

[McMullan]

Just taken a gravity reading. Down to 1.010 (attn = 79%). Actually tastes nice after passing through a coffee filter. Definitely lager-like with a nice Pilsner level spiciness from the hops and good bitterness. Little surprised considering only used Goldings. It's currently at 20°C under 15psi. I'll cool it over a couple days then pressure transfer to the purged 9L keg. Then I think I might add some gelatine to clear things and get it in a glass sooner, ready for the next sunny day. This Sunday, potentially

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The flavor of MO is not something that I would find appealing in a lager. Too malty for my tastebuds.

Read the OP more carefully, he's not using regular Otter but an Extra Pale (or Low Colour as Warminster call it), which at 2.5EBC (1.5L) is paler than a lot of pilsner malts. It still has Otter character but is a lot less in your face, and entirely appropriate for a British take on lager.

Going back to the original question :

What's an English Lager? That's a genuine question. As an ale drinker, I really don't know. All I can think of is Carling Black Label, which is crap.

And Canadian.

On one level - there's no such thing. But lager has a surprisingly long history in the UK - I suggest you have a read of Boak & Bailey's 60-page Gambrinus Waltz. We were no exceptions to the European-wide fashion for the newfangled beer which really got going in the 1860s, enhanced by a general enthusiasm for all things Germanic thanks to Prince Albert. The first dedicated lager brewery in the UK is debatable but is usually reckoned to be the Austro-Bavarian Lager Beer and Crystal Ice Company, in Tottenham which opened in 1881 although ale breweries were brewing lager well before then. However all things Germanic rather went out of fashion in 1914 and lager pretty much died out during WWI. Imports started giving people a taste for it after WWII, and then the Canadian tycoon Eddie Taylor went on an acquisition spree in the 1960s to build an estate of tied pubs which became Bass Charrington, that he could sell Carling Black Label into. The other brewers responded in kind by licensing various European brands, although some of the regional brewers ended up trying to make their own with their ale yeasts and sell them under ersatz German names like Greenall's Grünhalle and Robinson's Einhorn (brewed at their Unicorn brewery). They weren't good, and despite the huge boost of the heatwaves of '75 & '76, by the 80s the market was dominated by foreign brands (by now including the Aussies, XXXX and Foster's) brewed under licence with big marketing budgets behind them.

And so it continued for a generation. There have been the odd "craft" lager breweries like Freedom (established in the mid-90s) but it's only in the last 5 years or so that there's been a real interest in lager from anything other than the big boys. I think it's mostly that as small breweries have built their own taprooms, they've had commercial pressure from across the bar from the 2/3 of Brits who drink lager. And that's led to various approaches - they tend to stay classic to start with, 34/70 and Saaz/German, but then branch out as they get more experience and you do see people doing lagers with English hops. It's not particularly common, but it is a bit of a thing. I guess it will become a bit more of a thing with Brexit. I'm surprised you managed to find two examples using ale yeasts though, they generally use pastorianus IME, partly because the scars of the 1970s versions run so deep.

 

[McMullan]

Any chance of getting hold of those other photos?

 

[Miraculix]

The goodest of them boys!!!

 

[McMullan]

This is turning into a pretty reasonable beer. Not the best Pilsner I've made but far from the worst. Pilsner territory nonetheless. I repitched the yeast into a full batch. Only differences were 10% flaked Maize, more hops @ 15min, fresh/wet yeast and oxygenated wort. With plenty of fresh yeast it fermented well under 15psi @ 12°C. I think I prefer lagers fermentated at lower temperatures. Almost 3 weeks in and I think it's a slight improvement, but it needs to lager for a month or so. Next half batch is going to be mashed much lower temperature, as some recommend for a lager. Then maybe a version with Pilsner malt, to get an idea what each element brings. It's stating the obvious, but I think using lager yeast is the key, to get that refreshing lager crispness, rather than ale yeast at cooler temperature.

 

[McMullan]

Sticky and humid here. Thunder storm on the horizon, I hope. After doing some gardening I thought I'd have a cold one. This English lager has turned out really nice. I will be making this again. I compared it with one mashed at 62°C, instead of 68°C. The lower mash temperature has produced a relatively boring beer. Closer to commercial fizzy p*ss water, if I'm brutally honest. Back to 68°C me thinks. Nicer beer with more flavour that marries well with some spicy hops.

 

[Broken Crow]

My personal interest has for years been the beers of the Industrial Revolution, particularly in the UK. My own favourite beers seem to be those brewed roughly 1850-1960, and having no particular liking for lager except at lunchtime on a hot day when I've been engaged in heavy labour, I've always had an antagonistic position on lagers from the UK. The explosion of popularity of lager that occurred in the late 1950's-early 60's literally killed many traditional ales. Marris Otter appears to just be a nail in the coffin. For my own brews, I know I have been successful at recreating the typical pub-ales because my primary tester is my dad-in-law, former SAS, who grew up in Liverpool and knew his pubs quite well.
It looks to me that your recipe and approach has complete historical precedent. If you don't mind, I'm gonna bookmark it to try it some day. Just curious though; Any chance you can find an old english chap to try it out and provide some feedback? (unfortunately, there's not many of that generation left.. my dad-in-law is 90)

 

[McMullan]

My personal interest has for years been the beers of the Industrial Revolution, particularly in the UK. My own favourite beers seem to be those brewed roughly 1850-1960, and having no particular liking for lager except at lunchtime on a hot day when I've been engaged in heavy labour, I've always had an antagonistic position on lagers from the UK. The explosion of popularity of lager that occurred in the late 1950's-early 60's literally killed many traditional ales. Marris Otter appears to just be a nail in the coffin. For my own brews, I know I have been successful at recreating the typical pub-ales because my primary tester is my dad-in-law, former SAS, who grew up in Liverpool and knew his pubs quite well.
It looks to me that your recipe and approach has complete historical precedent. If you don't mind, I'm gonna bookmark it to try it some day. Just curious though; Any chance you can find an old english chap to try it out and provide some feedback? (unfortunately, there's not many of that generation left.. my dad-in-law is 90)

To be honest, as an ale drinker predominantly, I think big commercial interests in Britain and elsewhere have done an effective job alienating Lager among those who generally appreciate good ale. And having had many trips to Germany, I'd be surprised if the small local traditional breweries there are mashing at 62°C. I think that's what big commercials have done, historically, mainly to produce ethanol rather than a decent beer. Mashing at higher temperatures definitely takes things to another level. In terms of fermentability there's really not much in it, 1-2% difference, which makes me think whatever's going on on the other side (of fermentability) is pretty low threshold stuff?

 

[Broken Crow]

I think your adorable dog's patience is the real key. As a fellow predominantly ale-drinker, I am interested in trying a lager brewed to the style of 1950's - 1960's UK purely for a historical epicurean perspective... that of course, requires the accurate feedback of a rather old person who was there for it. Thanks for this whole thread. I'm going to keep it bookmarked and refer to it when I've finally finished setting up my own gear so I can follow it properly and hope my dad-in-law stays with us to give me some feedback, and I can maintain the same patience as your dog.
Oh; As to the Carling; My first beer was Carling Black Label (original Canadian) in 1972.... It was wretched, and when they reintroduced it in the late 80's or early 90's, they made an accurate and faithful perfect copy of the original and... It was still wretched!! (I drank it anyway, for fond memories)

 

[Broothru]

Pennsylvania here, Yeuingling brewery, America's oldest brewery still brews a Lager & it's a top seller. The taste (to me) is what a Lager should taste like. I found a recipe after reading several articles about the brewery and pieced it together. Haven't tasted it yet as its still carbonating. Ill definetly give a heads up when i finally taste it. Meanwhile, if you never had a Yeuingling brew check them out, it's really decent tasting. Just saying

Timely comment to me. Last weekend I was camping in Western Pennsylvania, and one person in our group brought some Yeuingling. My father's family was from Central PA, and I have spent a considerable amount of time in Philly, in addition to living most of my adult life 20 miles south of the Mason-Dixon Line in Central Maryland. In my 72+ years, this was the first time I'd ever had a Yeungling, and found it quite enjoyable.

 

[Broothru]

Ill definetly give a heads up when i finally taste it.

Please do, along with a recipe if you like. I'm a fan of the historical and pre-prohibition styles, and have had good success at the 'awards table'. Always looking to improve on the finished product.

 

[bwible]

Pennsylvania here, Yeuingling brewery, America's oldest brewery still brews a Lager & it's a top seller. The taste (to me) is what a Lager should taste like. I found a recipe after reading several articles about the brewery and pieced it together. Haven't tasted it yet as its still carbonating. Ill definetly give a heads up when i finally taste it. Meanwhile, if you never had a Yeuingling brew check them out, it's really decent tasting. Just saying

If you’re in PA see if there’s a Two Stones Pub anywhere around you or if your beer distributor might have some of their cans. If you can find it, look for the Delco Lager. If you like Yuengling give that a taste. Delco is slang for Delaware County, PA where the brewer is from.

 

[bwible]

Pennsylvania here, Yeuingling brewery, America's oldest brewery still brews a Lager & it's a top seller. The taste (to me) is what a Lager should taste like. I found a recipe after reading several articles about the brewery and pieced it together. Haven't tasted it yet as its still carbonating. Ill definetly give a heads up when i finally taste it. Meanwhile, if you never had a Yeuingling brew check them out, it's really decent tasting. Just saying

Yuengling claims to be America’s oldest brewery. “America” as in the United States. Molson in Canada is older and claims to be North America’s oldest brewery.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

My personal interest has for years been the beers of the Industrial Revolution, particularly in the UK. My own favourite beers seem to be those brewed roughly 1850-1960

The Industrial Revolution started a century earlier than that in the UK - this is a nice map of its spread, which among other things suggests a reason why the Napoleonic Wars ended in 1815 with the result that they did....

But if you're interested in British lager in the 19th century, I'll repeat my recommendation above for Boak & Bailey's Gambrinus Waltz, when British lager was influenced by the real thing from the Continent rather than the ersatz versions from the colonies that arrived after WWII.

It looks to me that your recipe and approach has complete historical precedent. If you don't mind, I'm gonna bookmark it to try it some day. Just curious though; Any chance you can find an old english chap to try it out and provide some feedback?

What McMullan was aiming for with high-quality English ingredients throughout had no basis in anything brewed before the millennium - and certainly not the licence-brewed lagers of the post-WWII period, which were brewed with the cheapest ingredients (mostly from Eastern Europe) by brewers who often had little experience of lager brewing. Perhaps the likes of Keystone or Milwaukee's Best are the nearest equivalents in the US market - they're just not beers you would want to clone (and actually they're quite hard to clone at homebrew scale, as we don't have access to all the chemical crap that the big boys do).

But that's not what the OP was aiming for, at all.

 

[ba-brewer]

I will post this as a malt choice for anyone coming into this thread thinking about a English lager
https://crispmalt.com/malts/hana-malt/
https://crispmalt.com/recipes/english-pilsner/

I bought some of the malt and brewed a Czech inspired lager(smash with saaz and S-23) with some of the malt and thought it came out well. Was thinking about doing something similar to @McMullan first post with the rest of the malt is how I found this post. Was thinking EKG or possible bramling cross or northern brewer as the hops.


Additionally Simpson's golden promise works well as a base malt for pale lagers. I have not used with English hops in a lager but it worked well with tettnang and WLP835 Lager X yeast.

 

[patto1ro]

View attachment 765320

Above is a typical sixties attempt at lager. The mash and boil are the same as for a pale ale, but fermented with yeast from the Red Tower Brewery, then a long-established brewer of lager. Hop 28 was listed as "Styrians", supplied by a British Hop Merchant.

So, just 14 Qtrs Muntons Pale Malt and 3 Qtrs of Flaked Rice with 50 lbs of Styrian Goldings. That's about 9 gm of hops per kg of grist, all at the start of the boil. OG 1037 fermented at 57F/14C.

Many brewers at that time used their normal ale yeast, but this one didn't.

Which brewery is that record from?

 

[cire]

Which brewery is that record from?

J Nimmo, Castle Eden, Co Durham. I think it was sold as Schloss, introduced roughly 2 years before being bought out by Whitbread.

 

[patto1ro]

J Nimmo, Castle Eden, Co Durham. I think it was sold as Schloss, introduced roughly 2 years before being bought out by Whitbread.

Thanks.

 

[duelerx]

I have brewed Barkley Perkins British Dark Lager twice and is quite tasty. As Pattinson says it is more like a lager Dark Mild.

 

[patto1ro]

I have brewed Barkley Perkins British Dark Lager twice and is quite tasty. As Pattinson says it is more like a lager Dark Mild.

I've trademarked the term Lager Dark Mild. It could be the next big thing.