English Best - carbonation strategy

[Merkur]

I brew a lot of English ales and serve them on my Angram beer engine from a corny equipped with a 'FloatIt' pickup. I have a demand valve that admits CO2 to the keg when beer is drawn and feel that the keg (corny) is at close to atmospheric most of the time. There is no rush of CO2 when the pressure relief is pulled.

This of course means that in all probability, the lid isn't sealed. Has anyone found a way of sealing the lid without using pressure? Maybe a modification to the lid to tighten it down mechanically?

The second question is that I have been carbonating in the fermenter to around 7psi at fermentation temperatures. This equates to around 1.2 volumes of CO2. I then cold crash and do a pressure transfer to the keg. Serving is using a sparkler and the beer looks wonderful with a rich head that lasts. I do feel though that a little more carbonation is needed. When the keg is sitting in the kegerator, there is zero pressure in the headspace so the small amount of carbonation present will disappear in a few days. I am thinking the right strategy is to ferment and transfer to the keg at 1.2-1.5 volumes, serve using the demand valve to admit a very small amount of CO2 when serving, but when I'm not serving, to leave the keg with 2-3psi on it. This should maintain the carbonation level.

What is the experience here with serving English cask ales?

 

[corncob]

Struggling with the sin of covetousness over that beer engine.

I also serve a lot of English ales in cornies. I use a picnic tap with about 3 inches of line and I rigged a liquid propane regulator so I can run as little as 1psi reliably. Like you, I find I prefer about 1.2-1.3 volumes. It's not trad, but that's what I like abs it works great with my hacked-together setup. If I had a beer engine, I would do exactly what you are planning. Just switch lines for serving. If you wanted to get fancy, you could use a 3 port ball valve to switch without opening the fridge.

 

[DuncB]

Sorry for delay in response.
Just clearing up a few aspects of nomenclature.

A demand valve goes between the keg or cask and the beer engine. It opens with the demand of lower pressure generated by the beer engine handle being pulled. It is needed when you have your cask above the beer engine or if the beer is under pressure to prevent flow out of the keg when not being pulled.

A cask breather or the LPG regulator is a secondary regulator that will allow CO2 in at low pressure when beer is drawn from the keg or cask.

It sounds like you have quite low condition ( vols of CO2 ) in your keg and if you can ferment it to 1.4 vols and then use the LPG reg or cask breather to maintain this pressure the beer should serve well and have condition.

This thread has an angram and useful info.

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/hand-pull-beer-engine.90628/

I can't get the " treatise " to open but hopefully @Peebee will come to the rescue.

Can I ask if you could send some pictures and detail of the tube that goes between the top of the engine cylinder and the back of the out tube / spout.
My Angram has the wrong tubing on it and it kinks constantly and makes my beer engine work badly.
Length diameter type etc.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I have a pair of BBQ propane regulators and they are fixed to 11" WC/~0.4psi. If a "cask" was held around 10°C these would hold the carbonation around 1.2 volumes..

Cheers!

 

[Merkur]

My Angram has the wrong tubing on it and it kinks constantly and makes my beer engine work badly.
Length diameter type etc.

Hi - my Angram CQ had the same problem with the tube kinking. I tried many different tubes - silicone tubes, reenforced PVC tubes, rubber tubes. They all kinked and caused problems. In the end I bought the right part from Paul at UK Brewing supplies. It has worked flawlessly for 3 years. Their part number is 24087.

 

[DuncB]

Thank you for that, wil find out about postage to New Zealand.

 

[DuncB]

I was hoping to hear from RLBS but no joy yet. Hoping they have the part and I can get it sent to me in England when I visit next week

 

[Agent]

Touching on your seal question, Williams Brewing offers an oversize O ring that will seal with zero gas pressure. I use them on my plastic lids and dinged up kegs.

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Hom...ids-Lid-Parts/Oversize-Keg-Lid-Sealing-O-Ring

 

[Peebee]

... I can't get the " treatise " to open but hopefully @Peebee will come to the rescue. ...

Sorry! I was supposed to get all those links back up after rearranging my "Google Drive"; looks like I got distracted. But I'm not sure what will happen in the UK's "The Home Brew Forum" after the Administrator's bizarre toying with "kangaroo courts" which resulted in me getting me banned from that forum ("me" being a complainant, not the accused "of abuse and completely off subject posting" defendant!).

But, as it happens, I have a copy posted locally on this forum. It hasn't changed (since 2017; why should it):

Treatise. (The name is a joke because it goes on ... and on ... ).

I use Spanish "Clesse" ("Novacomet") BS1813 adjustable propane regulators set at about 70-80mbar (1PSI-ish) for a "cask-conditioned" handpump effect. Very few other regulators can hold such low pressures for days on end (they'll slowly drift off, whatever they might say they can do).

I also use those "over-sized" O-ring seals for Corny kegs. Much better than "softer" silicone O-rings - "softer" is a myth.

Have fun!

 

[Peebee]

... Can I ask if you could send some pictures and detail of the tube that goes between the top of the engine cylinder and the back of the out tube / spout.
My Angram has the wrong tubing on it and it kinks constantly and makes my beer engine work badly.

This is an old post (the floor is tiled now!) but could help. I use reinforced PVC tubing (silicone tube is very oxygen porous). Also 90° "John Guest -like" fittings to avoid sharp bends. The picture in the link terminates on a solenoid valve rather than the pump's nozzle, but you can sort that out, The big improvement ... I used to get crimped shut hoses too ... was routing the tubing around the pump piston shaft so you can route it without kink inducing sharp bends.

Of course, if not protecting beer in the cylinder from oxygen (the beer in the cylinder oxidises overnight if nothing is done) use the more flexible silicone hose that the manufacturer uses ... but I know you seal you pump nozzle with a non-return sparkler (I've been playing with my own designs of these to replace the solenoid valves).

By the way: Angram in Yorkshire don't seem to assemble handpumps anymore. They appear to have sold out to an Italian outfit ... www.celligroup.com? I may be wrong? But just try them. I've been trying to find out if I can pump (rough) cider through their CQs (local cider from just up the road) as cider is pretty acidic stuff. The cider farmer/maker isn't keen that I attempt to pump his cider through a hand pump.

 

[DuncB]

Thank you for the info.
Well I'd say what is the pH of the cider.
Some beers could be down at 4 ish and I can't really see what would get damaged in an engine. It's plastic or stainless.
Will await your pH result.

 

[DuncB]

That tubing looks about 15mm external with that reinforced thread. I'll get my eyes peeled here and in England when I get there next week.
I avoid silicone except on hot side because of the not widely known O2 permeability.
I did originally use some silicone tubing from keg to engine but it was hopeless, collapsed all the time.

 

[Merkur]

Touching on your seal question, Williams Brewing offers an oversize O ring that will seal with zero gas pressure. I use them on my plastic lids and dinged up kegs.

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Hom...ids-Lid-Parts/Oversize-Keg-Lid-Sealing-O-Ring

Wow - I had no idea these existed. I will definitely buy a bunch. Thx.