Englisch Pale Ale - Tips and Advice

[MSK_Chess]

@Gadjobrinus - you're kinda conflating two traditions. When beer taxation was done via a tax on malt in the 19th century, the premium brands made a point of avoiding adjuncts but in the north they added sugar and in the south they added maize and rice. It's consistent with their overall plans - Burton was brewing for export and so wanted high attenuation to improve stability during transport (which meant low-floc yeast which led to the Burton Union), London breweries were brewing for their local market so wanted floccy yeast for ease of dispense so ended up with higher attenuation and a fuller mouthfeel. So I'd tend to go with either sugar or maize/rice, but not both. Of course it all went pear-shaped thanks to Lloyd George in WWI and breweries were forced to use adjuncts in the name of the war effort, and British beer never really recovered. But there was lobbying for a Reinheitsgebot in the late 19th century.

Personally I don't use adjuncts and I don't think I would unless I was trying to recreate specific historical beers or it's really essential to the style like a tripel. But I don't think they're really necessary for ordinary British styles for home drinking.

@MSK_Chess The Boddies story is controversial but the fact that the big change seems to have happened in late 1981 or 1982 at the height of the deindustrialisation of their homeland, suggests that money was a factor. There's also been a suggestion that they "lost" their original multistrain yeast at around this time. Wyeast 1318 London Ale III gets referred to as a Boddies yeast but supposedly originated at Courage, hence the Wyeast designation - I don't know if that means they replaced their original strain with one from Courage or whether it was just one sourced from their library.

Ron Pattinson has published an original recipe for 1987 Boddies which uses 34.2g of Goldings in 23l (and just 13g of No 1 in an otherwise all-malt brew)- apparently they were using 3-year-old hops, I'm not sure whether that recipe allows for that or not but they would have been a)pretty dead by then but b) cheap - it's a long way from how bitter Boddies was in the 1970s. The only other beers I've heard using hops that old are some of the lambics.

Most of the recipes I've seen for Landlord (TT do make other beers!) seem to be based on the Graham Wheeler book which seem to be the source of the 20-30g black malt and the rest pale, although other recipes use a bit of 120 crystal as well. I know that certainly 20 years ago TT were still using Proctor which was the main English spring barley (and a parent of Maris Otter, which was bred to combine the quality of Proctor with the farmer-friendliness of winter barley) so I can see why Golden Promise is often mentioned. Certainly wouldn't surprise me if some of the colour came from caramelisation in the kettle.

They do seem to be pretty strict about only using Goldings, Fuggles and Styrian Goldings (which despite the name is just Fuggles grown in Slovenia), they're pretty old school in general. And of course you have to use 1469 yeast....

A little bit of melanoidin malt will easily get that same colouring without hardly any flavour impact, as little as 100g would do it I reckon. Yes Wheeler uses black malt but that simply makes the Golden Promise take on a kind of whisky colour. TT themselves in their promotional videos state that they use nowt but Golden Promise and whole leaf hops. They old school. The bottles of TT and Boltmaker I bought recently were the best of the bunch. Better than the Fullers and much better than the Caledonian breweries latest attempts to get into the craft brewing market with their double hopped lagers where you are left wondering where are any of the hops. Truly pathetic.

Call me an infidel but I liked the creamy Boddingtons in my youth. It came in a can that had something in the bottom, maybe nitrogen? I bought what i thought was the same thing a little while ago and it tasted nothing like the beer i used to savour in my youth. But ok perhaps perceptions can change over time.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Guys - there is a lot of great information here that you have shared, and I am grateful. I will read it a couple of times between now and BrewDay.

If things go well, this weekend will be when I am going to brew this beer.

Looking through the thread, I see that I have been making things way too complicated; therefore, I am my goal is to simplify this within the parameters of my goals in time for BrewDay.

I have a label image in mind for this, and will post it as soon as I can; thanks to PhotoBucket, it is not as easy as it used to be.

More as it happens, etc. &c....

Ron

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Here is the label that I created for this beer, with many thanks to my friend GarethM for the inspiration:

 

[user 246304]

That is absolutely beautiful. Very nice, buddy.

 

[EnglishAndy]

I assume this is the current recipe? My main comment would be that 5.37% is way too strong

I would second this. Hardly any English brewer ever brews a pale ale this strong unless it's a seasonal 'winter warmer' or 'christmas special' because it just doesn't sell. Yes there are exceptions (Kelham Island Pale Rider springs to mind as do a few superb specials from Blue Monkey) but they are quite rare. The huge majority fall into the 3.7% to 4.5% range and are characterised by their delicate balance and quaffability.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I think we forget that up and down the UK there is great diversity. A Kentish bitter is certainly different than a Northern bitter and a London bitter different again. I would love a recipe for some of the stuff I see and have purchased in the supermarket, Bishops Finger, Spitfire etc My last attempt at a Best Bitter was spoiled by the fact that my OG was 1056, this is way to high for the modest ABV of a modest British Bitter I reckon.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Good morning, gents, and thank you very much for the insight on this. I think that figuring out the "strength" of the beer is going to be my biggest challenge.

My thinking is that for my first shot at an English Pale Ale (I'm not even sure what the "proper" term is anymore, so am simply going with that moniker), I'll go for something representative, recognizable and simple, rather than strictly or historically accurate; something like an amalgam of typical examples, if possible. By the sounds of it, my goal should be in the neighbourhood of 4.3% or so, since the consensus indicates that anything above 4.5 or so is too high to be traditional.

I have Ron Pattinson's book on vintage beers, and will be consulting that; however, for now, maybe I will just adjust the grain bill of the quoted recipe (which JKaranka helped me develop) to reflect a lower ABV, with IBUs down a hair, closer to 31 or so.

I also have Crystal 70 and a tin of Lyles Golden, but have been reluctant to use either for this first attempt.

It seemed pretty well established that I will be safe with S04 as a yeast; for dry yeasts, this seemed to be the best choice.

My only reference for an "English Pale Ale" to date is a bottle of Bass that I once had, and it was very, very good; if I can come close to that with a simple recipe, whilst still being "plausible" in terms of authenticity, I'll be happy.

One thing is for sure, I am learning that finding a "typical" example is a very elusive choice; in many ways, that is a good thing!

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Okay -

Keeping the proportions that JKaranka provided in mind, and adjusting the over-all recipe for an ABV that is more in line with a "Special/Best/Premium" Bitter (according to my Brewers Friend app), here is what I came up with (note that grain amounts are in ounces):

Englisch Pale Ale

Statistics (1 gallon, all-grain)

OG - 1.042
FG - 1.010
ABV - 4.24%
IBU - 32.02
SRM - 7.29

Fermentables:

Maris Otter - 24.75 (95%)
Carastan 30/37 - 1.25 (4.8%)
Black Patent - .05 ((0.2%)

Fuggle Hops (5.9% AA):

4.5g @ 60
5.0g @ 15
2g Dry Hop

S04 Yeast

This looks to me as if it will be a pretty tasty beer, but what say the Knights of the Round Table?

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Please delete this post as redundant.

 

[EnglishAndy]

Okay -

Keeping the proportions that JKaranka provided in mind, and adjusting the over-all recipe for an ABV that is more in line with a "Special/Best/Premium" Bitter (according to my Brewers Friend app), here is what I came up with (note that grain amounts are in ounces):

I like your malt bill now. That's more like it for an English Bitter; virtually all Maris Otter with a touch of crystal is all there is to it. Your hops are worryingly low though. Flicking through my copy of the Graham Wheeler book most of the clone bitter recipes are 20-ish grams at the start and 10-ish grams at 10 minutes or split between 10 and 0 minutes.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I like your malt bill now. That's more like it for an English Bitter; virtually all Maris Otter with a touch of crystal is all there is to it. Your hops are worryingly low though. Flicking through my copy of the Graham Wheeler book most of the clone bitter recipes are 20-ish grams at the start and 10-ish grams at 10 minutes or split between 10 and 0 minutes.

Hi, Andy -

Could the difference be because this is a 1-gallon batch with a target IBU of about 31/32? Or, would you think I should put more hops in on a different hops schedule (say, all at 25 minutes), in order to reach those IBUs?


Note - I tried the schedule you suggested and the IBUs were pretty insane, coming in at a little over 100....

 

[EnglishAndy]

Could the difference be because this is a 1-gallon batch with a target IBU of about 31/32?

Ah, 1 gallon. That'll teach me not to pay full attention. I was thinking the full 5 gallons. You're spot on with your numbers. I'd drink it!!!

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Awesome - appreciate it!

 

[TasunkaWitko]

If you are brewing a classic English Bitter, the BJCP guidelines for this style say "Emphasis is on the bittering hop addition as opposed to the aggressive middle and late hopping seen in American ales."

Reminding myself of this again, I modified the hops schedule very slightly:

The new hops schedule is:

Fuggle Hops (5.9% AA):

5g @ 60
4.5g @ 15
2g Dry Hop

This results in essentially the same IBUs (32.04 now, vs 32.02 previously), which are right down the middle of the scale for this style (25-40), according to Brewer's Friend. I expect this to be balanced and pretty darn close to what it should be.

If I survive this brew, I intend to experiment with maize and invert sugar, in order to achieve the subtle balances that are described in the early posts of this thread.

Thanks to all!

Ron

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I made just a couple of small tweaks to bring the colour up into the BJCP guidelines; all other stats are still well within the guidelines, so I think that this will be my final version.

My expected BrewDay is going to be this weekend; however, it is hunting season here in Montana, so this brew "might" be postponed. I expect no further changes to the recipe, but will post the final version when it is brewed, just in case.

Thanks to everyone for all of your assistance. I really couldn't have done this without you, and I am grateful.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I am going to attempt a clone of Spitfire Kentish Ale. Most if not all of the recipes I see online make no sense to me. Some have torrified wheat and wheat malt in the same bill??? Most if not all have crystal and amber malt in a 2:1 proportion. 400g of crystal in a brown ale appears to me to be rather excessive, but ok. Perhaps I am prejudiced as I am not a huge fan of crystal anyway. So anyway I bought a bottle and I will be going by instinct. If anyone has any advice or insight to proffer, please let it be heard.

 

[MSK_Chess]

There is no way there is even 8% crystal in Spitfire Amber. You really need to struggle even to taste it. Its almost like a pale ale with some little crystal for colouring and flavour. Maybe light crystal? Also there is not much of a yeast profile. I wonder what they use? Perhaps the sterilised filtering has removed most of it. Bet it tastes way different in cask. I'd say Fuggles and EKG but there is also a more dank hop in there, not sure what it is though, Target, Northdown? Challenger? Something else perhaps? any insight most appreciated.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Definitely some crystal in there though. They use Kent barley, I know they used to use Pearl a few years ago but that's giving way to newer winter barleys like Cassata and Flagon so they may have switched by now.

Spitfire is Target bittering, First Gold and dry hop EKG. Northdown is almost all grown out west so wouldn't be used by Sheps who to be fair to them do pretty much stick to Kent for their British hops.

Must admit I spend so much time trying to avoid Sheps it's been a good while since I've had it, certainly not in bottle but I can't imagine a clear bottle does it any favours.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Definitely some crystal in there though. They use Kent barley, I know they used to use Pearl a few years ago but that's giving way to newer winter barleys like Cassata and Flagon so they may have switched by now.

Spitfire is Target bittering, First Gold and dry hop EKG. Northdown is almost all grown out west so wouldn't be used by Sheps who to be fair to them do pretty much stick to Kent for their British hops.

Must admit I spend so much time trying to avoid Sheps it's been a good while since I've had it, certainly not in bottle but I can't imagine a clear bottle does it any favours.

Its as fine a beer as you can find on the supermarket shelf. Very well made in my opinion. Target and First gold and EKG. Awesome. They use yeast from the national yeast bank but don't say what it is. Apparently they use six different strains, was researching it earlier, depending on their beer. Its strange because I did not taste any amber. Usually when I use amber it gives almost a kind of roast coffee flavour. Did not detect any of that in the Spitfire. Yes crystal is present but its very subdued, just little hints on the back end. Great bitterness on the beer, I liked it, was not overpowering but not wussy either, balanced. Had almost a copper and amber hint too. Was dry but not overtly so, great mouth feel. Not sure if its meant to be medium bodied or not, but it was not thin. Was very bright, remarkably so.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I have friends-of-friends who are well acquainted with what goes on at Sheps, I need to get some pints down them to find out what the story is, but it won't be soon. I find Kristen England's yeast list rather frustrating but one of the most intriguing entries is for Wyeast 1026 British Cask Ale from "Oranjeboom and then was adopted by a UK brewery".

We know Sheps are fairly promiscuous with yeast, and they've contract-brewed Oranjeboom for many years. If any "UK brewery" was going to adopt a yeast from Oranjeboom, they would be the obvious candidate. Reading the descriptions of 1026 it sounds plausible - drops well, fairly clean with a bit of ester - sadly it is one of the Private Collection strains, it's been released in Q1 the last two years.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I have friends-of-friends who are well acquainted with what goes on at Sheps, I need to get some pints down them to find out what the story is, but it won't be soon. I find Kristen England's yeast list rather frustrating but one of the most intriguing entries is for Wyeast 1026 British Cask Ale from "Oranjeboom and then was adopted by a UK brewery".

We know Sheps are fairly promiscuous with yeast, and they've contract-brewed Oranjeboom for many years. If any "UK brewery" was going to adopt a yeast from Oranjeboom, they would be the obvious candidate. Reading the descriptions of 1026 it sounds plausible - drops well, fairly clean with a bit of ester - sadly it is one of the Private Collection strains, it's been released in Q1 the last two years.

wow that does sound interesting. Yes that describes it exactly, bit of ester but fairly clean I would say.

 

[JKaranka]

Wouldn't it have caramel for colour? Not a big fan of Spitfire, find it a bit bland when others have nicer aroma (London Pride has been great the last few years).

 

[EnglishAndy]

Bet it tastes way different in cask.

And you would be correct, it is very different in cask. Rich, complex, finely balanced and very much the younger brother of Bishops Finger. If all you've had is the bottled version then you're missing out.

Our local is a very good Shepherd Neame with everything kept exactly as it should be. Unfortunately about a year ago they stopped getting Spitfire in favour of the newer 'Gold' version. When I asked the landlord he said that the brewery weren't offering the standard version on the list he gets any more. Another victim of the fad for golden ales I suppose.

As for the yeast, just culture it up from a bottle of 1698 or drop Brewlab an email and tell them you're wanting to brew a 'Kentish style ale' and they'll get the hint and give you what you want

 

[EnglishAndy]

I have friends-of-friends who are well acquainted with what goes on at Sheps, I need to get so

I do hope you get around to this. I've seen many a guess as to the malt bill in Spitfire but most look too complex to be what a commercial brewer would use in a mass market product.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Unfortunately about a year ago they stopped getting Spitfire in favour of the newer 'Gold' version. When I asked the landlord he said that the brewery weren't offering the standard version on the list he gets any more. Another victim of the fad for golden ales I suppose.

WHAATT? Seriously, that's one of the most jaw-dropping things I've read on these boards - a Sheps house not even being offered Spitfire. The mind just boggles, it points to a serious rethink of their entire strategy. Are they aiming it at a young market or something - what else do they have on draught? This is an actual Sheps-owned pub?

I wouldn't say it's a fad for golden ales, it's just another of those generational changes. The stock ale drinkers thought porter was a fad, the porter drinkers thought mild was a fad, the mild drinkers thought brown bitter was a fad. There's been a pretty consistent trend through history of each generation rejecting the beer of their parents, and for preferring something lighter (qv the lager "fad"). And folk from Boddies country would say that golden ales are nothing new....

 

[EnglishAndy]

WHAATT? Seriously, that's one of the most jaw-dropping things I've read on these boards - a Sheps house not even being offered Spitfire. The mind just boggles, it points to a serious rethink of their entire strategy. Are they aiming it at a young market or something - what else do they have on draught? This is an actual Sheps-owned pub?

Yes it's Sheps owned and they get everything the brewery offers from the seasonal Early Bird and Late Red to the IPA, Christmas Ale (love that one) and Halloween specials. They also get a lot of experimental casks from the No.18 Yard pilot brewery. All on tap.

It's the regulars that have changed over the years. It used to be Spitfire, Bishops Finger, Canterbury Jack and Kent's Best. Now it's Whitstable Pale (VERY popular), Spitfire Gold and Bishops Finger.

I wouldn't say it's a fad for golden ales, it's just another of those generational changes. The stock ale drinkers thought porter was a fad, the porter drinkers thought mild was a fad, the mild drinkers thought brown bitter was a fad. There's been a pretty consistent trend through history of each generation rejecting the beer of their parents, and for preferring something lighter (qv the lager "fad"). And folk from Boddies country would say that golden ales are nothing new....

You're probably right. Feedback from the brewers I speak to is that they sell at least double and sometimes a 3:1 ratio of their stock session golden ale to anything else on the bar.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Wouldn't it have caramel for colour? Not a big fan of Spitfire, find it a bit bland when others have nicer aroma (London Pride has been great the last few years).

Yes I suspect so but not in the ratios described in the recipes i have seen online. Some had 13% crystal malt, wheat malt and torrified wheat????? I agree with English Andy above, most if not all British bitters are very simple beers, pale malt, some little crystal, occasionally wheat and chocolate and that's about it. I was unimpressed by London Pride in the bottle but again its probably very different in cask.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It's the regulars that have changed over the years. It used to be Spitfire, Bishops Finger, Canterbury Jack and Kent's Best. Now it's Whitstable Pale (VERY popular), Spitfire Gold and Bishops Finger.

You're probably right. Feedback from the brewers I speak to is that they sell at least double and sometimes a 3:1 ratio of their stock session golden ale to anything else on the bar.

I still can't get my head round Sheps not even offering Spitfire as an option. It's just so weird that it feels like a publican playing the "blame the brewery" card when it's him that's made a commercial decision to put Finger on the bar rather than Spitfire. Which is still an unusual decision, but I can imagine circumstances where it might happen - but I really struggle with the idea of him not even being offered Spitfire.

Interesting on the ratios down your way - it's still less than you'll see in parts of the former Boddies territory, but still far higher than it used to be.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yes I suspect so but not in the ratios described in the recipes i have seen online. Some had 13% crystal malt, wheat malt and torrified wheat?????

It seems to be a general thing, that USians think that normal brown bitter has about twice the amount of crystal that it actually does, and then wonder why it's so sweet. I don't know if it's because they're trying to control sweetness with the grist rather than the yeast, I guess if you only use US-05 then you need a lot more crystal than if you use a British-but-not-Burton yeast.

 

[MSK_Chess]

It seems to be a general thing, that USians think that normal brown bitter has about twice the amount of crystal that it actually does, and then wonder why it's so sweet. I don't know if it's because they're trying to control sweetness with the grist rather than the yeast, I guess if you only use US-05 then you need a lot more crystal than if you use a British-but-not-Burton yeast.

Yes exactly. To me a great bitter should be slightly dry, malty to an extent yes, but balanced, not sweet! my goodness we are not brewing a Mild or a Heavy! Also I don't understand why some recipes had Styrian Goldings and Fuggles, makes no sense, either one or the other. Same as wheat, either a little wheat malt or some torrified wheat, not both! Man I love EKG and Target hops!