Electricking out a new MLT.

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FreakinA

FreakinA

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The Primer: Made the jump to all grain recently and I seriously couldnt be more happy(well other then the nature of this post). I use a 32qt ex-turkey frying pot for my BK and HLT. I have Flyguys simple 10g Rubbermaid cooler conversion that I use to batch sparge in. I have 2 2000w heating elements I use for everything around the brewery. Now I want to upgrade a little over this holiday season!

The Project. I want a 10 gallon electric temperature controlled HLT. My design will be very similar to the Pols, except for now I am going to keep it gravity fed for simplicity. I am no electrical wizz(at all[like for reals]) but my dad is an EE so over christmas break and such I expect him to help me with the actual electric parts(dont worry I will pay him in beer!:mug:) I would like some sort of electrical temperature control unit, I think that is what people mean/use when they say Ranco and Love, clearly more research is needed by me!

The Plan. Take a 10 gallon rubbermaid cooler, add on a ball valve and a small dip tube(to get the dregs of the water). Step 2 would be to add the heating element. I am thinking either another 2000W or a 1500W. Due to the circular nature of the cooler, I think putting it in its bottom is the best idea(thats what she said?). I plan to take pics of the whole thing and make a little step by step guide once I get going. I need some help or a nice push in the right direction for how to temperature control this though. I plan to additionally add insulation to the lid of both my Rubbermaids, and use Pol's guide from brewersfriend.com on adding thermometers to these using a gum-stopper. Any and all advice on this matter is appreciated!
 
Whatever you are using for temperature control in the HLT, you may find that hot spots develop in the water, which may or may not be near the sensor. If you had a way to stir or recirculate it, that may be helpful. Closed loop control is found more often in RIMS type systems for the mash.
 
Thanks for the ideas OhioBrewingTechnologies. Hmm. I have seen Pol's stirring rod he uses. In his video he said it was certainly not the cheapest way to stir the HLT. I was thinking, and perhaps this is a stupid though, Maybe I could permanently attach a stirring device and manually stir it up through the top? My other thought is perhaps making a floating device with a small motor(maybe one of those little pool submarines) and let that go throughout the HLT heating. Any further thoughts.
 
You do need to agitate that water.

The stirrer I use ran about $75

If you had a pump, you would simply recirculate the water

Some people have used submersible aquarium pumps, maybe one of them will chime in

In any case, if you have a temp probe, you need turbulence.
 
If you know the temperature and quantity of the water starting out, you can determine how long the element needs to be on for to reach that temperature. Unlike a flame, the electric elements are pretty consistent in their output.

Anyway if you know the quarts of water, the temperature increase (Farenheit) and the power of your heater, it goes something like this:

Time = 2.2 * quarts * Farenheit / Kilowatts

So if you have 10 quarts, to raise the temperature 100 degrees with 5.5 kW, it takes 400 seconds. Much longer if the lid is off though.

There is a slight correction for your kettle because the metal has to heat up also.
 
+1 to using an agitator. I used a motor from surpluscenter.com coupled to a paint mixer. At first I didn't put one in, and during the heating phase the natural convection currents in the water kept it mixed fairly well. However once the water reaches stasis a large temperature differential forms, and the temp. probe reading becomes inaccurate.

Here's a writeup on my eHLT: http://www.tracezero.net/Beer/setup/electric-hlt/

In a previous version of the HLT I use a 5 gallon cylindrical cooler with an element in the bottom. This design is nice but one does have to consider the height of the element and the volume of water that you plan on heating. My current HLT uses a rectangular cooler so I was able to stick the element in the side, allowing me to heat as little as three gallons of water.

Have fun with your holiday project!
 
I found that my stir motor (like Pols) could not keep up with my 5500W element in my HLT. So I just recirculate my march pump and it does the job nicely.
 
brrman said:
I found that my stir motor (like Pols) could not keep up with my 5500W element in my HLT. So I just recirculate my march pump and it does the job nicely.
Click to expand...

Well, you had to get all fancy, didnt you Brian?

:D
 
The plan for now due to limited funds is to just keep this thing gravity fed and therefore pumpless. I would have no problem installing a little motor from Bobby's site to a paint stirrer and agitating that way.
 
I'm about to start on my HLT. Like the OP, I'm going to use a 10 gallon cooler from THD.

Mine will be a little different. I am making a lid out of 2" foam, with a thin plywood top. Through the lid will be 2 1.5" elbow plumbing fixtures, with 2000 watt water heater elements installed in the bottom, elbow part.

This will give me 4000 watts to heat my strike and sparge water with.

I had to give up on my dual heatstick, I could not find the right parts to make it, so this is my replacement.

I still need some way to mix the water. Thanks for the aquarium pump idea, I had not thought of that one.
 
What about just using two smaller elements? I mean that's what electric water heaters do... one at the bottom, one closer to the top, through the sides. You'd be adding the cost and complexity of two elements, but you wouldn't need any kind of stirring system either.
 
There must be something I don't understand about heating water in the HLT. I don't get why bother to build a stir motor when a timer can do the trick. You're going to drain it into the MT anyway, and that will mix it up, right?
 
OhioBrewingTechnologies said:
There must be something I don't understand about heating water in the HLT. I don't get why bother to build a stir motor when a timer can do the trick. You're going to drain it into the MT anyway, and that will mix it up, right?
Click to expand...

I think the problem is accurately knowing the temperature of the water as a whole. If it's a lot cooler in some spots than others, where do you measure the temperature?
 
MacBruver said:
I think the problem is accurately knowing the temperature of the water as a whole. If it's a lot cooler in some spots than others, where do you measure the temperature?
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll buy that. But still, say you use a timer to get to your target, then spend 5-10 seconds stirring with a spoon before you measure the temp. Is that enough convection or is it the automation you're trying to support?
 
Basically if you are using a temp. controller, which most people are, there has to be turbulence so that your controller can accurately read the temp. for ON/OFF.

The problem I see with a timer is this. Yes, you can break down heating time mathematicaly, but you have a lot of variables. Temp of the HLT, temp. of the water, % of heat lost to ambient. Also, unless you plan to use the HLT water as soon as the time expires, there is the issue of turning on and off the element to maintain the temp. that you desire.

If you plan to use the HLT as a HERMS HEX, then obviously you need turbulence. Outside of that you CAN do without it, but your temps. wont be as precise and unless you are there to turn it on and off to maintain the temp. after it is heated, it will cool off without your intervention.

I mean, really the nice thing about electric is that it is UBER easy to automate with a simple on/off controller, as long as you can keep a homogenous temp. The timer thing will work, except like I said, once you turn it off... the water starts to cool, so you become the temp. controller, Id rather spend $80.
 
From points illustrated throughout this post, I basically 'need' to put together some sort of stirring element for there to be any point in the temp probe. I am thinking of building this first with the heating element and just plugging it into the wall, then adding in the temp sensor later in a few weeks. Alot of this will be constructed over Turkey break, I just wanted to sort of get a guideline for what needed to be done.
1. Cooler conversion to ball valve.
2. Add in heating element.
2.5 http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/04/26/adding-sight-gauges-on-a-budget/
and
2.75 http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/02/15/add-thermometer-probe-to-hlt-mlt-cooler/
3. Insulate lid.
4. Develop stirring device.(So far methinks a crappy hobby supply motor and a big stick. Anyone have an idea of needed RPM if I am only using a 1500-2000W element?)
5. Learn all about temp sensors and how to hook one of those badboys up.

Sorry about the 2.5 and 2.75, I didnt want to renumber the whole thing and forgot about those fun little additions.
 
FreakinA said:
From points illustrated throughout this post, I basically 'need' to put together some sort of stirring element for there to be any point in the temp probe. I am thinking of building this first with the heating element and just plugging it into the wall, then adding in the temp sensor later in a few weeks. Alot of this will be constructed over Turkey break, I just wanted to sort of get a guideline for what needed to be done.
1. Cooler conversion to ball valve.
2. Add in heating element.
2.5 http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/04/26/adding-sight-gauges-on-a-budget/
and
2.75 http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/02/15/add-thermometer-probe-to-hlt-mlt-cooler/
3. Insulate lid.
4. Develop stirring device.(So far methinks a crappy hobby supply motor and a big stick. Anyone have an idea of needed RPM if I am only using a 1500-2000W element?)
5. Learn all about temp sensors and how to hook one of those badboys up.

Sorry about the 2.5 and 2.75, I didnt want to renumber the whole thing and forgot about those fun little additions.
Click to expand...


That Brewers Friend website has some cool stuff on it eh? :mug:

You will need a MIN of 100RPM, Id suggest 200RPM

If you use a 1500W element you can get by with a simple Johnson A419, $80 and it is easy for you to set up, plug and play.

Anything pulling more than 16A you will need an SSR probably and then a PID to control that.
 
A buddy of mine took the rotissere (sp) motor of his barbeque grill. A very little simple motor and rigged a big spoon looking thing onto that to stir his electric HLT.
 
The Pol said:
That Brewers Friend website has some cool stuff on it eh? :mug:

You will need a MIN of 100RPM, Id suggest 200RPM

If you use a 1500W element you can get by with a simple Johnson A419, $80 and it is easy for you to set up, plug and play.

Anything pulling more than 16A you will need an SSR probably and then a PID to control that.
Click to expand...

I love the site. You are the one that made the guides right? It wreaks of pol rig in those pictures.
 
addis29 said:
A buddy of mine took the rotissere (sp) motor of his barbeque grill. A very little simple motor and rigged a big spoon looking thing onto that to stir his electric HLT.
Click to expand...

Seems simple but the only rotisseries I have seen are deathly slow. On a side not, WHAT A WEIRD WORD! I googled it to check spelling and now I am slowly saying it back to myself like it has no meeting! I love this pale ale!

I dont have to have to put in a PID and SSR for the HLT. I eventually will move on to a system much much much like yours Pol, and it is my understanding that you use a PID SSR(whatever those doohickies are) for the BK already. I will keep my HLT under 16 amps so I can use the Johnson or something alike!
 
FreakinA said:
I love the site. You are the one that made the guides right? It wreaks of pol rig in those pictures.
Click to expand...

Yes, those build articles are mine, I contribute a lot of material to BF.

As for the PID and SSR, yes, those are to control the 5500W (23A) element in the BK. Simply because the SSR is the right switch (big enough), and the PID is an effective way of switching that switch 2x a second!

The A419 is a great way to control the HLT, it is easy and can mount right to it.

I used the AC gear motor on my HLT, it is nice, low amp draw and plenty of power. It sucks that it is a pricey gadget, but I mean it sits atop a $2k rig so what the hell right? You can get ac gear motors for less at places other than McMaster Carr
 
2k rig! Maybe after college! Im trying to keep my entire rig under 3 or 4 hundred for now.
I have the MLT, I have 2 heatsticks, total= ~120. The MLT I was budgeting about 100 bucks for. The BK is going to be a keggle made from a non-legally obtained keg from AB/inBev (I just wouldnt feel right stealing from someone else). The next step is to get the Wort chiller as I am badly in need of one. I think I can come in well underbudget as long as everything goes smoothly.
 
Wal-mart is a great company that does ALOT of great for the world. Plus if the liquor store doesn't want to take my friends keg back and give the deposit back, Ill buy it off of him for the deposit. And damn do you always try to argue on the most slippery slope known to man?
 
FreakinA said:
Wal-mart is a great company that does ALOT of great for the world.
Click to expand...

um, sure... like continue sweat shop labor, dictate the market, continually put local mom and pop stores out of business, treat it's employees like &*(& and the list goes on and on.

Buy hey, you can save $, so it's good, right? Who cares if some 8 year old in China is making those sweat pants for $.03 per day wage, as long as you can pay $9 instead of $12 for American made ones, right?

/hijack.

B
 
FreakinA said:
Wal-mart is a great company that does ALOT of great for the world.
Click to expand...

Go watch "Walmart: the high cost of low price" and tell me if you still feel the same.

And damn do you always try to argue on the most slippery slope known to man?
Click to expand...

It just bothers me when people use that kind of logic to steal kegs. If you really tried to give it back and they wouldn't take it, then have at it. Nothing you could do besides scrap it at that point. Problem is, there are plenty of homebrewers who don't even bother with that, or even understand how much a keg really costs to the brewery.
 
Go do your research NOT in a documentary.
Second, the whole sweat shop labor is bull, ever hear of supply and demand?
Im pretty sure Walmart doesn't do the sweatshop thing. Perhaps their second tier suppliers do, but Walmart assuredly does not. I also dont understand the whole Mom and Pop arguement. I dont personally shop at Walmart, but why would consumers be mad that they can buy the same products for cheaper. If you want to pay more for the same product then I am sure you could work out some sort of donation system with the store.
 
FreakinA said:
Go do your research NOT in a documentary.
Click to expand...

I never said that I hadn't. While somewhat inflamatory, the movie is a good summary of what makes walmart evil. I'd suggest you do some of your own research as well if you're interested in the topic, there's a lot of stuff out there.

Second, the whole sweat shop labor is bull, ever hear of supply and demand?
Im pretty sure Walmart doesn't do the sweatshop thing. Perhaps their second tier suppliers do, but Walmart assuredly does not.
Click to expand...


There are labor laws in the U.S. that prevent your local walmart from being a sweat shop, that's not the point. However, it's easy enough to shop around for suppliers in countries that don't have those kind of protections. Walmart makes a lot of noise about their "code of conduct", but the reality of the situation is that workers have to be paid extremely low wages in order to deliver products at the kind of prices that Walmart has. It's simple economics. Of all the trade that the US does with china, Walmart accounts for 11% of it. That's a lot of clout.


I also dont understand the whole Mom and Pop arguement. I dont personally shop at Walmart, but why would consumers be mad that they can buy the same products for cheaper. If you want to pay more for the same product then I am sure you could work out some sort of donation system with the store.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a plan. Have big bins to donate money to the people making 50 cents a day for those shirts that get sold in walmart. Maybe then people would realize where the costs are getting shifted to.

This has gotten way off track, this is my last post in this thread. Don't want to gum it up any further.
 
This is not a debate forum, kiss and make up... it is totally legal in some states.
 

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