Electrical wiring questions for spa panel

[BigFloppy]

If OP needs more than 4 rings (Lights, Sockets, Heat and Cool) or 125A - using 4 tandem breakers + the 60A included GFCI then definitely go with a separate sub-panel, otherwise, treat the spa-panel as a sub-panel in it's own right because that's exactly what it is... a panel with a pre-installed 60A GFCI breakier

 

[Hello]

The end game here is now is 100a at the main, pulled to the shed where there's a sub/spa panel with three breakers, one is likely 50a, both will be 20a. 50a will be my NEMA 14-50R receptacle, one duplex for a window a/c or heater depending upon weather and the vent fan, the other will be for the chest freezer (ferm chamber). The vent fan claims 2 amps. Ideally the chest freezer will be on it's own breaker.

And I think this is a panel that I could use. http://t.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-H...ain-Lug-Load-Center-HOM612L100RBCP/100143240/

 

[Hello]

Okay, I got the quote from the electrican and its huge. I didn't expect it to be that high.

I can't entirely decipher what they can do and what I'll do. I intend to dog the trench myself, so that should be $300 off that $980 if they're charging me the same as the last quote for 50a service. I intended to have them put the breaker in the main, pull the wire through the wall and pull the permit, leaving me with trenching and the shed. Does that mean I'm looking at roughly a grand for what I want them to do?
Quote:
Plans and Permits $150
100 amp circuit and trench from electrical panel in garage to new sub panel in shed includes 2 new ground rods for sub panel. $980
100 amp ITE breaker $108.95
100 sub panel. Includes panel installation and two 8' ground rods and bonding wire. $257
< 30 FT. Dedicated circuit 240v 50A
Includes: outlet, up to 30' of romex, breaker $515.25
< 30 FT. Dedicated circuit 120v 20A
Includes: GFCI outlet, light switch with 4' T8 fluorescent fixture, up to 30' of romex, and breaker. Price is of open framing inside of shed. $105.94

 

[kpr121]

Seems like they are double dipping you a little between these two items:

100 amp circuit and trench from electrical panel in garage to new sub panel in shed includes 2 new ground rods for sub panel. $980

100 sub panel. Includes panel installation and two 8' ground rods and bonding wire. $257


Ask about that. And ask if first line includes subpanel material costs and installation.

They are burning you on the 240V dedicated circuit IMHO. If I were you I would run that yourself. Would be no more than $100 in materials for 6/3 or 8/3 wire, outlet box and breaker.

The 110v costs seems reasonable if it includes the T8 fixture, but thats all stuff you can do yourself too.

Remember to get brewing you are going to want GFCI protection so that means either additional SPA panel or they put a GFCI breaker in the subpanel. Quote doesnt mention 240V GFCI.



If I were you I would discuss with him exactly what needs to be done, tell him what you will be doing yourself, and then have him give the quote for the rest of the work. This is a tricky conversation and process because different contractors price their quotes differently... ideally each task should have its own line item and should be written how much it will cost in materials and labor per line item, and there shouldnt be any extra fluff anywhere. but thats not always the case... plus most contractors just want you to pay a big number and let them do all the work, if you start piecemealing things they may charge you more per line item to make up for profit they would have gotten with the whole job.

That's why my next suggestion would be to get additional quotes from other contractors.

 

[IslandLizard]

Plans and permits $150 => What is the exact permit fee portion? Usually a flat fee plus percentage of job cost.
Are "plans" required by permit office? Usually a rough sketch is fine for these things.

Why is the 240V 50A circuit $515? That sounds excessive.
Breaker, wire, and outlet. That should actually be hardwired to your SPA panel, no receptacle (and plug and cord) needed.

 

[Hello]

I'm actually pricing this via Home Depot. It jumped 3x the price moving to 100a and to a sub panel. That sounds wrong.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Okay, I got the quote from the electrican and its huge. I didn't expect it to be that high.

I can't entirely decipher what they can do and what I'll do. I intend to dog the trench myself, so that should be $300 off that $980 if they're charging me the same as the last quote for 50a service. I intended to have them put the breaker in the main, pull the wire through the wall and pull the permit, leaving me with trenching and the shed. Does that mean I'm looking at roughly a grand for what I want them to do?
Quote:
Plans and Permits $150
100 amp circuit and trench from electrical panel in garage to new sub panel in shed includes 2 new ground rods for sub panel. $980
100 amp ITE breaker $108.95
100 sub panel. Includes panel installation and two 8' ground rods and bonding wire. $257
< 30 FT. Dedicated circuit 240v 50A
Includes: outlet, up to 30' of romex, breaker $515.25
< 30 FT. Dedicated circuit 120v 20A
Includes: GFCI outlet, light switch with 4' T8 fluorescent fixture, up to 30' of romex, and breaker. Price is of open framing inside of shed. $105.94

Is your main panel a pushmatic? If do you may want to upgrade it too. If it's a normal 200a panel, I think Seimens breakers are rated for ITE panels and shouldn't cost that much.

Ground rods are not needed at your sub panel. He should be running 4 wires. Two hots, a neutral and ground. The ground tie screw must be removed in the sub panel. I did use separate grounds for my shed, but it's not required. All my grounds are tied together though. The ground from your main panel must be tied to the sub panel ground.

For that price, make darn sure he properly does the trench, I think a minimum of 20" and in conduit or if USE cable, sand placed around the cable, and make sure there is red buried cable tape in the ditch too.

 

[EuBrew]

Ground rods are not needed at your sub panel. He should be running 4 wires. Two hots, a neutral and ground. The ground tie screw must be removed in the sub panel. I did use separate grounds for my shed, but it's not required. All my grounds are tied together though. The ground from your main panel must be tied to the sub panel ground.

May not be needed but may be required by the city where he's pulling the permit. I ran 100 amps in the detached garage from the alley and trenched 200 amp to the house to eliminate overhead lines because my neighbors both have huge trees that are always shedding branches. Anywho, the city inspector required a ground at the meter attached to the garage that then feeds the 100 amp and the 200 amp then a separate disconnect and ground where the 200 enters the house.

As has been said, save yourself a boatload of cash by running everything but the large service yourself if you can.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Ground rods are not needed at your sub panel. He should be running 4 wires. Two hots, a neutral and ground. The ground tie screw must be removed in the sub panel. I did use separate grounds for my shed, but it's not required. All my grounds are tied together though. The ground from your main panel must be tied to the sub panel ground.

The most current two NEC's all but require it for an "outbuilding". Most states are three or more updates behind. Individual Municipalities are often quicker to adopt so be careful...even then, they can pick choose what they want to keep.

 

[Fatman_Brew]

Some things to consider...

There will always be a markup on materials to cover costs involved in purchasing, transporting, and storage of materials. Do not expect to be charged Home Depot prices for materials.
Most electricians have a ball park dollar value based on square footage to meet NEC code, with triggers for extras and unusual requests. Get a few other quotes, but expect them to be somewhat close.

As others have said, the ground rods are required per NEC in this application.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Some things to consider...

There will always be a markup on materials to cover costs involved in purchasing, transporting, and storage of materials. Do not expect to be charged Home Depot prices for materials.
Most electricians have a ball park dollar value based on square footage to meet NEC code, with triggers for extras and unusual requests. Get a few other quotes, but expect them to be somewhat close.

As others have said, the ground rods are required per NEC in this application.

Thanks, now I see it, damn NEC changes more than my underwear...

 

[augiedoggy]

Some things to consider...

There will always be a markup on materials to cover costs involved in purchasing, transporting, and storage of materials. Do not expect to be charged Home Depot prices for materials.
Most electricians have a ball park dollar value based on square footage to meet NEC code, with triggers for extras and unusual requests. Get a few other quotes, but expect them to be somewhat close.

As others have said, the ground rods are required per NEC in this application.

Yes the normal markup is 75 to 100% over cost... Remember there cost is usually better than home depot prices because they have accounts at supply houses... I used to do maintenance and maintain houses, an apartment building ,plaza and a large restaurant and even we had accounts with discounted rates depending on what we were buying... the estimate often depends on the customer in real life too... many contractors take one look at the customer and say to themselves "What is this guy willing to pay" and how hard is he going to make it to do my job.... Many of these guys would rather you not hang around watching them or asking a lot of questions... I'm not saying they are all like that by any means but its easy to get one like I described above.

 

[Fatman_Brew]

Yes the normal markup is 75 to 100% over cost... Remember there cost is usually better than home depot prices because they have accounts at supply houses... I used to do maintenance and maintain houses, an apartment building ,plaza and a large restaurant and even we had accounts with discounted rates depending on what we were buying... the estimate often depends on the customer in real life too... many contractors take one look at the customer and say to themselves "What is this guy willing to pay" and how hard is he going to make it to do my job.... Many of these guys would rather you not hang around watching them or asking a lot of questions... I'm not saying they are all like that by any means but its easy to get one like I described above.

Of course all service industry/trades costs are better than retail, no secret there. I am not sure how relevant that is to the topic. To assume if you can go to store X and pay Y does not mean if you hire someone to do the same for you they are going to charge you the same or less.

 

[augiedoggy]

Of course all service industry/trades costs are better than retail, no secret there. I am not sure how relevant that is to the topic. To assume if you can go to store X and pay Y does not mean if you hire someone to do the same for you they are going to charge you the same or less.

Exactly.... That what I was saying... We are discussing costs and high estimates I totally feel its worth mentioning... The op can always buy much of the supplies Herself and get another estimate from somewhere else with less of a markup.

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

The op can always buy much of the supplies himself

Or *cough* herself....

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/brewer-interview-jessica-b-hello.html

 

[ajdelange]

As others have said, the ground rods are required per NEC in this application.

Not much question that the code requires them to be there but the bigger question is as to whether they enhance or decrease safety.

 

[Singlepole]

Chest Freezer 2 amps X 120 volts = 240W
Space heater and A/C will not run at the same time so only the largest one counts 11 amps X 120 volts = 1320W
2 5500 watt heating elements = 11000W
2 chugger pumps running at 3 amps 3 amps X 240 volts = 720W
iPhone plugged in at all times which acts as a camera too small to count
Lights and outlets in shed is calculated by shed size but I will assume about 800W

Total watts = 14080 X 1.25 (to meet rules) = 17600W
Total Amps = 17600W / 240V (nominal voltage) = 73.3 amps
Min wire size to feed 73.3 amps is #6 AWG
#6 is rated for 75 amps so maximum breaker size for it would be 75, but since they dont really make a 75 amp breaker the next size would be 80 which would be allowable but hard to find, so your choices would be to drop to a 70 Amp breaker and run #6 wire to your shed or up to 100A and run #3 to you shed, 3 conductor #2 aluminum will not be much more or maybe less than 3 conductor #6 copper and the extra amperage will leave room for expansion in the future.
I am an electrician in Canada, but our calculations are done the same.

 

[Singlepole]

In Canada there are two methods of doing this,
You can run 3C cable without ground and use a plate or rods, and treat the shed as if it was a new service.
Or you can run a 3C cable with ground, and the panel would be treated as a sub panel, bonding screw would be removed.

My two cents, now I am done

 

[Fatman_Brew]

Not much question that the code requires them to be there but the bigger question is as to whether they enhance or decrease safety.

Those questions are outside my pay grade. If I am held to X, I must do X.

 

[Hello]

Some things to consider...

There will always be a markup on materials to cover costs involved in purchasing, transporting, and storage of materials. Do not expect to be charged Home Depot prices for materials.
Most electricians have a ball park dollar value based on square footage to meet NEC code, with triggers for extras and unusual requests. Get a few other quotes, but expect them to be somewhat close.

As others have said, the ground rods are required per NEC in this application.

Yes the normal markup is 75 to 100% over cost... Remember there cost is usually better than home depot prices because they have accounts at supply houses... I used to do maintenance and maintain houses, an apartment building ,plaza and a large restaurant and even we had accounts with discounted rates depending on what we were buying... the estimate often depends on the customer in real life too... many contractors take one look at the customer and say to themselves "What is this guy willing to pay" and how hard is he going to make it to do my job.... Many of these guys would rather you not hang around watching them or asking a lot of questions... I'm not saying they are all like that by any means but its easy to get one like I described above.

When I priced everything I was thinking or seeing how much it would cost me to do the job. I am going to have them install the main and run the wire to the shed at least so that I'm not touching that. I need to research what the two pole ground thing is. I really want to get this started.

 

[kpr121]

There's nothing unWOMANly about being smart and not killing yourself.

Hello, a big SORRY in my previous post(s), I shouldnt have made assumptions!



Are you planning to talk to any other electricians to get alternate quotes?

 

[Hello]

Hello, a big SORRY in my previous post(s), I shouldnt have made assumptions!



Are you planning to talk to any other electricians to get alternate quotes?

Well, if it bugged me at all I would have corrected you.
No worries from me here.

So I've had a couple of quotes and they're all within the same price range, I have one more guy coming today and that will likely be the last quote I'll try and get. I've asked the electrician that has done work at my house before if they can break the quote up more for me leaving considering for me to do the work in the shed myself. I have not heard back. My frustration grows as I figured it would because the shed sits there and I cannot do anything to it until the electrical is in. I'm not comfortable messing with my main. I've looked at the ground pole installation and I haven't quite figured out why I need two since there is only one panel. If the concept is that I need one for each service, then that makes a little more sense. One goes with the 110v and the other with the 240v. I still need to figure out where that all runs to within the panel from the ground. YouTube showed me how I can install the poles myself with effort.

Looking at pricing for materials, obviously I can save a ton doing this myself. I think if I can just get someone to do the main, I will be able to figure the rest out. I do have to have an inspection so at least if I do something that is utterly stupid, I will be able to know right away. What I didn't realize was that electrical will be more than the shed itself. Original quotes went out the door when I realized i needed more than 50a. I'm halfway kicking myself for getting the shed now but I'd be in a semi similar predicament if I had stuck this in my garage as that has only one outlet and a light. I'd still need the panel and other outlets and likely the grounding poles.

You all have been a big help so far. This is a patient bunch for sure!

 

[Onkel_Udo]

. I've looked at the ground pole installation and I haven't quite figured out why I need two since there is only one panel.

Looking at pricing for materials, obviously I can save a ton doing this myself. I think if I can just get someone to do the main, I will be able to figure the rest out. I do have to have an inspection so at least if I do something that is utterly stupid, I will be able to know right away. What I didn't realize was that electrical will be more than the shed itself. Original quotes went out the door when I realized i needed more than 50a. I'm halfway kicking myself for getting the shed now but I'd be in a semi similar predicament if I had stuck this in my garage as that has only one outlet and a light. I'd still need the panel and other outlets and likely the grounding poles.

You all have been a big help so far. This is a patient bunch for sure!

The two ground rods are standard because there is now guarantee that one (or two for that matter) will supply sufficient grounding in all types of soil. Just be glad you do not have to use "alternative" grounding methods as those get expensive quick.

As for the rest, you may need to step back for a minute.

The cost of materials can be deceptive but there is usually no doubt it will cost at least a little more having the professional supply them. That being said, as an knowledgeable non-professional I often find myself using more expensive options to make my life easier.

On your hesitance tapping into your main panel, can we isolate your concern? Is it working int he "live" breaker box or something else? Is the panel surface mounted or flush mounted? How will your new 6 or 8 ga wire be fed to the Main panel (knock-out on the bottom of surface mounted breaker box is easiest)? What kind of soil do you have (for driving the ground rod)? Finally, is your meter (the round plexiglass bowl in the main line before the breaker box) an old-fashion mechanical counter or a fancy remote monitored digital thing?

If money is your primary concern after safety, we can find a way for you to do all this work safely. This is likely to be a lot of work and maybe one new tool plus the rental of a second but it is not truly difficult.

 

[ajdelange]

I've looked at the ground pole installation and I haven't quite figured out why I need two since there is only one panel.

You actually don't need any (per NEC) if you only run a single branch circuit out there but local code may require it. But assuming you did need a grounding electrode there it would have to have an impedance to ground of less than 25 &#937; and if it doesn't then a second electrode needs to be driven. You might think the pair would then have to exhibit < 25 &#937; impedance to ground but they don't. So the electrician has two choices:
1) Shell out $1800 for a ground electrode impedance meter, drive a rod, check it's impedance and if necessary drive a second rod.
2) Drive two rods. Bill customer for two marked up rods.

Which would you choose if you were the electrician?

Edit: I guess I should add that the modern method of testing ground rod impedance is much simpler (and thus quicker) than the old method so that the capital cost of the tester is probably a bigger concern than the extra labor time.

Another consideration is that the electrician in your area is presumably familiar with the local conditions and may already know with fairly high certainty that the second rod is necessary.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

You actually don't need any (per NEC) if you only run a single branch circuit out there but local code may require it.

I am 99% sure the last two NEC's do require it for residential detached buildings.

 

[ajdelange]

It does but there is an exception:

"Exception: A grounding electrode shall not be required where only a single branch circuit, including a multiwire branch circuit, supplies the building or structure and the branch circuit includes an equipment grounding conductor for grounding the normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment"

 

[Onkel_Udo]

It does but there is an exception:

"Exception: A grounding electrode shall not be required where only a single branch circuit, including a multiwire branch circuit, supplies the building or structure and the branch circuit includes an equipment grounding conductor for grounding the normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment"

Slight thread degradation:

Is it still considered a single branch circuit if we are including a subpanel, even if it is spa panel with branch circuits of its own? This is honest curiosity on my part.

 

[ajdelange]

AFAIK, yes. A branch circuit is: "The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s)." This doesn't say, to me, anything about limitations on what you might or might not connect to the circuit except the implications are that it must be outlets. But we also have "Appliance Branch Circuits", "General Purpose Branch Circuits", "Individual Branch Circuits" and "Multiwire Branch Circuits". Someone might read all these and observe that outlets, single pieces of equipment, and appliances are all mentioned, that luminaires are specifically excluded and that as spa panels aren't mentioned, they are not included. Sometimes you have to read this stuff more as a lawyer would than an engineer. The reading that counts, of course, is the inspector's.

Note that I am not advocating eliminating these rods as a matter of convenience, reduced expense or safety. The widely admired Mike Holt would probably say not to put them in as, in the event of lightening strike near the outbuilding the local ground potential would be transferred over the grounding conductor to the main building. But I'd note that in the event of an open primary side neutral on the pole primary current will return to the substation through the local ground rods and the more of them you have the lower the grounding conductor potential will be above ground. Both unlikely events so....?

 

[Fatman_Brew]

From main panel to a sub panel (with derived branch circuits) in a detached structure is a "Feed" circuit and requires separate grounding.
From main panel to a disconnect in a detached structure is a "Branch" circuit.

 

[Hello]

Slight thread degradation:

Is it still considered a single branch circuit if we are including a subpanel, even if it is spa panel with branch circuits of its own? This is honest curiosity on my part.

I just had this conversation, only a little more muddied, yesterday with a guy. From what I can understand, the answer is yes.

Let the rambling begin...

I ran into this issue where electricians do not want to just do the work on the main and pull the wire through and then let me run with it. Their issue is with the permit and which license number is on the permit. I've talked to them and said I'd pull the permit ($90 BTW but most are asking $150 for their time) and I'd sub out the work to them. No one is willing to touch that idea with a 8 foot ground rod.

I spoke to a guy yesterday who is sending another guy back here this weekend, a licensed electrician still but he is a home brewer, so this may be what I need. Someone who understands my needs. He didn't seem opposed to the idea of letting me join in the fun. I'm starting to understand a lot more, but still unwilling to mess with my main. I took the panel off and there is no room to run wiring downward like everything else is (including the main feed to the box). therefore, I have to either go up, out and down, or straight out the back and down. There is a maximum number of turns I can make before I need another junction box, per code. Right now they're figuring 5 turns, I'm counting 4 if we go out the back.

Point here is I've referenced this thread so much that I am feeling more confident about this and without you all chiming in, I wouldn't have known much of this. Of course @islandlizard has also read through my rambling PMs and helped outside this thread.

Eventually, once I know work is going to begin, I will be able to start my build thread and all the fun will start. I did learn that the shed people didn't put a ridge vent on the roof. It was an extra item that I simply didn't consider. With vented soffits, once I drywall and use baffles, there is no place for the air to go. I'm trying to reach the shed guys now in hopes that I can get this taken care of without hitting the pocketbook too hard.