Electrical issue on brew day....

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

I was heating up my strike water when I heard a pop in my panel. I immediately smelled burning plastic. I shut everything down an opened up the panel to see the power wire that runs from the female outlet that powers the element to the relay was fried.
The connector at the relay was melted.

I can order another relay, but any ideas as to why it melted down? I bought this used. I have 4 batches on the system with no issues, not sure how many the last guy had on it.

Having a hard time adding pictures to my album. Not having a great day.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks
-Ron

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

View media item 70236
View media item 70237

 

[doug293cz]

Since the burning is localized at the contact, this is where the heat was generated. Likely due to a poor (high resistance) connection. The slip on connectors need to have a very tight fit to keep the resistance down. Or, it could have been a poor crimp of the connector onto the wire. You need to replace the connector on the wire, as well as the relay. You need to trim any discolored insulation and wire strands back, before crimping a new connector.

Brew on

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

Thanks for the quick response.
Yeah, that wire was toasted. I needs to be replaced.
Would I be better off switching the braided wire for solid?

 

[passedpawn]

Yep, loose crimp. There are ratcheting crimpers that ensure a good crimp - most people don't use them, but they are necessary for high-amperage connections. Soldering after crimping is the best idea (flux is your friend).

 

[processhead]

Thanks for the quick response.
Yeah, that wire was toasted. I needs to be replaced.
Would I be better off switching the braided wire for solid?

That wire is not really braided, but is referred to as stranded wire.
Stranded wire of the proper gauge is definitely preferred over solid wire. Attempts to crimp connectors to solid wire will result in bad connections and will only cause you more problems. Stranded wire is what you want to use and is preferable for wiring control panels. When done correctly, soldering connections after crimping can add some durability.

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

That wire is not really braided, but is referred to as stranded wire.
Stranded wire of the proper gauge is definitely preferred over solid wire. Attempts to crimp connectors to solid wire will result in bad connections and will only cause you more problems. Stranded wire is what you want to use and is preferable for wiring control panels. When done correctly, soldering connections after crimping can add some durability.

Thanks PH!

 

[passedpawn]

That wire is not really braided, but is referred to as stranded wire.
Stranded wire of the proper gauge is definitely preferred over solid wire. Attempts to crimp connectors to solid wire will result in bad connections and will only cause you more problems. Stranded wire is what you want to use and is preferable for wiring control panels. When done correctly, soldering connections after crimping can add some durability.

Solid wire on 23A connections is bad bad. I learn the hard way, and this lesson for me was no exception.

 

[processhead]

I guess we should give some clarification on when it is ok to use solid conductor wire. After all, miles of the stuff is in use all over the world.

Solid wire is fine to use when it is being terminated to connector systems specifically designed for it.
It is extremely common to see the terminals on circuit breakers and contacters that use clamping screw connections that work fine for solid wire or stranded wire. The various terminals that are crimped on to a wire with a tool are the ones to avoid with solid wire.

 

[passedpawn]

I guess we should give some clarification on when it is ok to use solid conductor wire. After all, miles of the stuff is in use all over the world.

Solid wire is fine to use when it is being terminated to connector systems specifically designed for it.
It is extremely common to see the terminals on circuit breakers and contacters that use clamping screw connections that work fine for solid wire or stranded wire. The various terminals that are crimped on to a wire with a tool are the ones to avoid with solid wire.

Thank you. I was not complete, or even clear. I was referring to solid conductors inside crimped fastons.

Solid wire is OK for carrying the current, and when used under clamped terminations like screwheads and similar it might be OK. My feeling is that even in those applications, if it's subject to temperature swings, it should have some ensured compliance feature like a split washer. My gear lives outside. While this is florida, it goes through hot/cold cycles. I'm much more wary of these connections after making some carbon of my own a few years ago.

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

Following up. Thanks for all the input. The new relay came in. I rewired, with stranded 10 gauge and fired it up.

I am having a problem with the actual temp exceeding the set temp, but I'll work that out. I mean it seems like it's not even recognizing the set temp at all. If I set it to 100 degrees, it will keep going to 212.

 

[processhead]

What temperature is indicated on the display from the temperature probe?

 

[stlbeer]

Following up. Thanks for all the input. The new relay came in. I rewired, with stranded 10 gauge and fired it up.

I am having a problem with the actual temp exceeding the set temp, but I'll work that out. I mean it seems like it's not even recognizing the set temp at all. If I set it to 100 degrees, it will keep going to 212.

This actually sounds like the SSR might be stuck in the closed position. If you have a spare one, swap it out and see if that doesn't resolve the issue.

 

[processhead]

Since I am running a RIMS and dealing with pre-boil wort that is almost devoid of any solids, I am sure my kettle element doesn't get exposed to some of the conditions that promote scorching.
Guys with an electric BK who are doing conventional mashes or extract brewers almost certainly are dealing with kettle conditions that could contribute to scorching.
Having controls on the kettle element, and using them correctly, make it easier to transition to a rolling boil without out running at full power, which also lowers the likelihood of scorching or color changes
As with so many things in brewing or any other process for that matter, the advantages of one variable are dependent on countless others.
So maybe the answer to my original question is not a hard "yes or no", but rather "it just depends".

Following up. Thanks for all the input. The new relay came in. I rewired, with stranded 10 gauge and fired it up.

I am having a problem with the actual temp exceeding the set temp, but I'll work that out. I mean it seems like it's not even recognizing the set temp at all. If I set it to 100 degrees, it will keep going to 212.

This actually sounds like the SSR might be stuck in the closed position. If you have a spare one, swap it out and see if that doesn't resolve the issue.

Before swapping out the SSR, confirm whether or not your controller is calling for heat. Should be an LED on the controller and possibly on the SSR.
When calling for heat from the controller, both should be lit.

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

I've had a CRAZY work week. I haven't had time to do any testing. Gotta get this resolved before my next brew day. I should be home this week some time. I'll post my findings.
Thanks again for all the input.

 

[passedpawn]

Following up. Thanks for all the input. The new relay came in. I rewired, with stranded 10 gauge and fired it up.

I am having a problem with the actual temp exceeding the set temp, but I'll work that out. I mean it seems like it's not even recognizing the set temp at all. If I set it to 100 degrees, it will keep going to 212.

It's possible the temperature overshoot is due to poor tuning of the PID coeffecients. Look into the manual and see if it has an "autotune" process. You'll want to run that with your system fully loaded with water, but it should get you critically damped, which is what you're shooting for.

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

I finally had time today to run an auto-tune.
I set the set temp to 154, fired it up and began the auto-tune when the water temp hit 140.
Just like the last brew day, it hit the set temp, the auto-tune stoped, and the temp kept raising.
The OUT led was solid while the temperature was below 154 during the auto-tune. When the temp hit 154 it started to turn on and off but the temp kept rising.

Any ideas?

 

[Bobby_M]

What controller is it?

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

It's an Auber SYL.
I believe it's a SYL-2342

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

Sorry, it's an Auber SYL-2352

 

[processhead]

The OUT led was solid while the temperature was below 154 during the auto-tune. When the temp hit 154 it started to turn on and off but the temp kept rising.

Any ideas?

How far did the temperature overshoot the set point?

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

I turned it off at 170.

 

[processhead]

It would be helpful to know what the output range limits for the controller are set for.
Can you check what the controller parameter OutL is set at?

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

OutL is set at 0.
OutH is set at 100.

 

[processhead]

OutL is set at 0.
OutH is set at 100.

Ok. That is where they normally should be. If OutL is inadvertently set to a larger value, it could prevent the controller output from ever turning off completely and overshooting your temperature, but you are good on that parameter.

 

[Bobby_M]

It will overshoot during the autotune function as it is being experimental. If you end it manually, the autotunes values will not be saved.

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

It will overshoot during the autotune function as it is being experimental. If you end it manually, the autotunes values will not be saved.

During the auto tune process it flashes from "AT" to the temp current. Once the auto tune is complete it stops flashing. Right?

The auto tune stopped, it stopped flashing and the temp kept rising. I figured at 170 it was safe to give up on it.

 

[processhead]

During the auto tune process it flashes from "AT" to the temp current. Once the auto tune is complete it stops flashing. Right?

The auto tune stopped, it stopped flashing and the temp kept rising. I figured at 170 it was safe to give up on it.

Assuming it has finished auto-tuning after the temperature has overshot the set point, you could try this:
Add enough cold water to bring the PV temperature below the set point again. Then let the system attempt to bring the temperature back up to the set point and see if it still continues to overshoot. Do not initiate auto-tuning while doing this test.

 

[passedpawn]

I finally had time today to run an auto-tune.
I set the set temp to 154, fired it up and began the auto-tune when the water temp hit 140.
Just like the last brew day, it hit the set temp, the auto-tune stoped, and the temp kept raising.
The OUT led was solid while the temperature was below 154 during the auto-tune. When the temp hit 154 it started to turn on and off but the temp kept rising.

Any ideas?

Take a look at the autotune section on this page below. Repeat, or at least set your PID coefficients to his default numbers there.

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-setup

 

[passedpawn]

During the auto tune process it flashes from "AT" to the temp current. Once the auto tune is complete it stops flashing. Right?

The auto tune stopped, it stopped flashing and the temp kept rising. I figured at 170 it was safe to give up on it.

When you get to 10 degrees below your set temperature, start autotune by setting At=2. If you set AT=1, there's another step to actually start the autotune. Just set At=2. I'm guessing you had it set to 1.

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

When you get to 10 degrees below your set temperature, start autotune by setting At=2. If you set AT=1, there's another step to actually start the autotune. Just set At=2. I'm guessing you had it set to 1.

I'll give this a try tonight. I don't recall if I set it to 1 or 2 when I did the last autotune.
If it runs over I'll try the suggestion by processhead above too.

I'll review the electric brewery info as well.

Thanks everyone!

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

I reran the autotune using AT=2. Set the temp to 154 started the autotune at 144. The autotune stopped as toon as the temp hit 154. The temp continued to rise until it hit 170. I added cold water, cooled it down to 140ish, let the temp rise again. It shot past 154, again turned it off at 170.

The electric brewery info states
"Generally speaking most HERMS and BIAB (Brew in a Bag) setups should work fine with the following values:"

• P = 40
• I = 350
• D = 2

For the hell of it, I used the numbers above (which were WAY off what the AT had programed in).
The temperature still shot past the 154 mark.

So, am I in the market for a new controller?

 

[processhead]

I reran the autotune using AT=2. Set the temp to 154 started the autotune at 144. The autotune stopped as toon as the temp hit 154. The temp continued to rise until it hit 170. I added cold water, cooled it down to 140ish, let the temp rise again. It shot past 154, again turned it off at 170.

The electric brewery info states
"Generally speaking most HERMS and BIAB (Brew in a Bag) setups should work fine with the following values:"

• P = 40
• I = 350
• D = 2

For the hell of it, I used the numbers above (which were WAY off what the AT had programed in).
The temperature still shot past the 154 mark.

So, am I in the market for a new controller?

I know this should be obvious, but the controller is not in manual mode, is it?

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

While I would be embarrassed, I which it was that. I checked last night. It was not set to manual mode.

 

[Zinge]

This sounds to me like a bad SSR, disconnect the wire from pin 7 on the back of your PID, fire it up and see if it heats up.

 

[processhead]

This sounds to me like a bad SSR, disconnect the wire from pin 7 on the back of your PID, fire it up and see if it heats up.

This is probably the next step to take. I think you have ruled out all the controller related stuff that I can think of.

 

[WolfgangVonFrankenStein]

I disconnected the wire from pin7 fired it up and it continued to heat the water.
So we’re all on the same page the wire from pin7 runs up to my heat sink, from the heat sink back to pin8.

 

[Zinge]

Pins 7&8 are the DC output from the PID to turn the SSR on. When you say attached to the heat sink, I assume you mean something similar to this:

That's the SSR on top of the heat sink. These SSRs will fail in the "ON" state and that would be why the water is heating when it's disconnected.

 

[processhead]

I disconnected the wire from pin7 fired it up and it continued to heat the water.
So we’re all on the same page the wire from pin7 runs up to my heat sink, from the heat sink back to pin8.

That wire going to the heat sink you disconnected was the control signal that tells the SSR to turn on and off. If that signal is disconnected and the heating element is still stuck on, then the SSR is shorted/bad.

 

[bracconiere]

couldn't be celsius?

just a thought....feel free to ignore me