Electric brewing ? - running 2 5000W elements at once

[JUST_BREW_IT]

I'm just now researching options for going electric. I currently mash in a cooler. I'd like to be able to run an element in my HLT and my BK at the same time. Doing 10 or 15 gal batches so looking at 4500-5500w elements although for my HLT I could possibly go with a much smaller element as I would not be boiling large quantities like in the BK. Currently I have a dryer in the basement which i'm wanting to steal 30a service from to accomodate this.

Is what i'm wanting to do possible with the electrical that is currently in place (30a 220v)?

Thanks, just a newb to ebrew and trying to learn as best as I can.

 

[Bobby_M]

Wattage / volatage = current required.
10,000 / 240 = 41 amps

It's pretty typical to limit to using one 5500 watt element on a 30 amp circuit because it will pull 23 amps and you still have juice to run a pump or two on the same controller box.. To run two at the same time requires a 50 amp circuit. I think the only practical reason you'd run the HLT and BK at the same time are for back to back batches.

 

[mabrungard]

I explored this issue with my system also. I have 5500w elements in both my kettle and HLT. While it is almost non-existent that I would operate both of those systems at the same time, I had a 4500w RIMS element that would likely be pulsing on and off while either of those other systems were operating. So I planned ahead and installed a 50a service for my brewery.

Unless you are going to significantly downsize your element wattage or you are going to impose the method that the Electric Brewery employs where you have to select only one circuit for operation at any one time, then you need to go with the 50a circuit. It's no fun to have to run to the breaker box because you are in the middle of something and the circuit blew due to overloading.

 

[JUST_BREW_IT]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

I do like to brew 2 batches on brew days when time allows but it's not a necessity.

Out of curiousity, how difficult is it to up a 30a service to 50a?

I'm also curious, I hear a lot of talk about spa panels. Are they used specifcally for gfci protection? If a guys is using a dryer outlet that is wired back to the homes box shouldn't already be gfci protected?

Thanks guys!!!

 

[mabrungard]

Um, could be pretty difficult if you need to run a new electric line. The size of the line has to be larger to carry 50 amps.

However, its no problem to change out the breaker in the main electrical cabinet from 30 to 50a. But as I said, the line size has to be capable of carrying the increased load.

NOOO! A dryer outlet is virtually never on a GFCI circuit. You would have to incorporate a GFCI breaker somewhere. The reason that most use a spa panel is that they are usually a much cheaper way to get the GFCI protection then by inserting a GFCI breaker in your main electrical panel. You can do it either way, its just cheaper with the spa panel.

 

[kpr121]

Something I've been thinking about doing for a long time is adding a 2000 watt 110 element to my HLT... That way when I do double batches, I can fire that up at the same time as boil to get strike for the next batch.

I don't do double batches much but it's been in my head. If you keep the HLT full during the first batch you'll have a good bit of water at 170 or so to help get up to heat. 2000w will take care of the rest while boiling. Might be a little bit of extra time but it would help.

Something to consider

 

[ChuckO]

I have my system set up with a properly installed 50A GFCI circuit dedicated to my brewery. I run a 240V 5500watt element at 120V in my HLT, another 240V 5500watt element at 120V in my RIMS. I put the sparge water in the HLT, the strike water in the MLT and start both elements running. For a 10 gal. batch it takes less than 1.5 hours to get the strike to temperature and about another 20 minutes to get the sparge water ready. I boil with a 5500watt 240V element at 240V with a duty cycle of about 70%. At this point I don't really need the 50A supply, as I can run either the HLT and RIMS together or the Boil by itself.

If I want to do back to back batches, I can wait until the first batch is in the BK and then refill the HLT and MLT and start them up again. This does require the 50A service and has me starting the mash before the first batch is completely cooled and drained to the fermenters. I haven't done this with two 10gal. batches, but it works quite well with a 5gal. batch as the second one. I don't think that I could mentally keep up with all of the steps necessary if it weren't for using a BCS-460 to control everything.

 

[cjgenever]

I have a 40 AMP supply via stove receptacle. That runs directly to a spa panel that holds one 50a gfci for my 240v and two 20a for my 120v. The 120v powers gfci outlets. This way everything is gfci protected and there is proper overcurrent protection. HLT is switchable 120/240 so I can heat at 240v and keep my sparge water to temp @120v once I start boiling (I like to start heating my boil as I sparge).

I could even run my HLT off a separate 120v circuit if I only had 30a available. However, it is important to understand what needs to be isolated between the circuits to avoid an unsafe condition.

 

[augiedoggy]

I use 4500w elements in my hlt and bk and have no problems running both my 1000w rims tube (240v) as well as one of my 4500w elements and two DC pumps at the same time...(30a circuit)

 

[kal]

Out of curiousity, how difficult is it to up a 30a service to 50a?

As mabrungard mentioned, it can be very difficult if your walls are already sealed up. You'd have rip off drywall and redo the wiring.

When I had my second basement brewery built, I had the electrician put in wire from the breaker panel to the wall receptacle that could handle 50A even though the brewing control panel I use is "only" 30A (I brew 10 gallon batches and never back to back).

If I ever do decide to go to a 50A control panel (either to do back to back batches or larger batches), the wire's already in place. All I need to do is change the 2pole/30A breaker with a 2pole/50A one, and change the wall plug. (And build an upgraded control panel of course!).

Changing out the wall wiring would not be an option as my brewery wall is tiled/drywalled. It was a small incremental cost to have the electrician install #6 wire instead of #10.

Kal

 

[kydan47]

I run two 3500 220v elements at the same time and often brew 20 gal batches. When I first started out, the electrician was to have installed a 30a 220v gfi but only did a 20a 220v gfi. I called him back and he ran a second 30a 220 gfi right next to the sub-panel giving me two power supply sources.

When I moved, I had the new wiring ran the same way (w/ same 2 power sources/outlets) and later when I expanded to add a RIMS, built my controller to run any two of five elements (2x3500 in BK, 2x3500 in HLT, and 2x4500 wired in series for the RIMS). I can control left in BK, right in HLT, etc.

Let's me run 7,000 watts. I often fire up the 50 gallons of water in HLT overnight, bump up for sparge, and then use both for getting to boil. I can cut back to one in BK and bump up the HLT for cleaning.

 

[JUST_BREW_IT]

As mabrungard mentioned, it can be very difficult if your walls are already sealed up. You'd have rip off drywall and redo the wiring.

When I had my second basement brewery built, I had the electrician put in wire from the breaker panel to the wall receptacle that could handle 50A even though the brewing control panel I use is "only" 30A (I brew 10 gallon batches and never back to back).

If I ever do decide to go to a 50A control panel (either to do back to back batches or larger batches), the wire's already in place. All I need to do is change the 2pole/30A breaker with a 2pole/50A one, and change the wall plug. (And build an upgraded control panel of course!).

Changing out the wall wiring would not be an option as my brewery wall is tiled/drywalled. It was a small incremental cost to have the electrician install #6 wire instead of #10.

Kal

Kal thanks for the response on this. My basement is unfinished with the wiring ran through the over head just. Running the wire from the box to my new location wouldn't be a problem. Guess I need to research the cost associated with doing this

 

[augiedoggy]

I run two 3500 220v elements at the same time and often brew 20 gal batches. When I first started out, the electrician was to have installed a 30a 220v gfi but only did a 20a 220v gfi. I called him back and he ran a second 30a 220 gfi right next to the sub-panel giving me two power supply sources.

When I moved, I had the new wiring ran the same way (w/ same 2 power sources/outlets) and later when I expanded to add a RIMS, built my controller to run any two of five elements (2x3500 in BK, 2x3500 in HLT, and 2x4500 wired in series for the RIMS). I can control left in BK, right in HLT, etc.

Let's me run 7,000 watts. I often fire up the 50 gallons of water in HLT overnight, bump up for sparge, and then use both for getting to boil. I can cut back to one in BK and bump up the HLT for cleaning.

2 30amp circuits is actually enough to power up to 14,000watts.

 

[Yooper]

The reason that most use a spa panel is that they are usually a much cheaper way to get the GFCI protection then by inserting a GFCI breaker in your main electrical panel. You can do it either way, its just cheaper with the spa panel.

I just wanted to reiterate this. A spa panel as fairly inexpensive, as supplies go, and had all I needed. I have 50A and GFCI that way.

I have an HLT with a 5000 w element, a BK with a 4500 w element, two pumps, and a fan (gets hot in there sometimes!). Now, it doesn't all run at once, but I never have to think about it if I suddenly need more hot water (for cleaning maybe).

 

[kydan47]

Thnx, had not considered going higher as I currently can heat 20 gallons two degrees a minute which is plenty. I have a 20 & a 30 which is slightly Less but more than 7k.