Electric brewery plans - need help

[Tiber_Brew]

I agree that the temp probe on the output of the herms coil is a better idea...I had mine at the ouput of my MT and the temps were always wandering around... People should look at a herms like a rims... you put the sensor right at the output to have tighter control.

While as an engineer I think I there is nothing wrong with collecting more data, practically, I'm most interested in the main thermal mass of the mash. That's the data point that counts the most. I use two Blichmann thermometers mounted on my MLT that tell me with more than accurate enough degree what temperature my mash itself really is, regardless of the heat exchanges and losses are elsewhere in the process. I do repeat calibration of the Blichmann thermometers every few months or so and they remain true and accurate. I use a lab grade mercury thermometer and a NIST certified digital thermometer for calibration.

 

[augiedoggy]

While as an engineer I think I there is nothing wrong with collecting more data, practically, I'm most interested in the main thermal mass of the mash. That's the data point that counts the most. I use two Blichmann thermometers mounted on my MLT that tell me with more than accurate enough degree what temperature my mash itself really is, regardless of the heat exchanges and losses are elsewhere in the process. I do repeat calibration of the Blichmann thermometers every few months or so and they remain true and accurate. I use a lab grade mercury thermometer and a NIST certified digital thermometer for calibration.

I'm not quite sure what the accuracy of analog thermometer has to do with the herms system which regulates the mash temp through regulating the wort in the herms coil... Its is that which I was commenting on.. does the blichmann thermometers somehow control the herms system or are you somehow doing it manually by observing the thermometers?
my analog thermometer are just for reference now...

 

[cantrell00]

I'm not quite sure what the accuracy of analog thermometer has to do with the herms system which regulates the mash temp through regulating the wort in the herms icoil... Its is that which I was commenting on.. does the blichmann thermometers somehow control the herms system or are you somehow doing it manually by observing the thermometers?
my analog thermometer are just for reference now...

Confused me as well. I would think that ideally you would not want a lot variance between the temp of the mash & the temp of HLT/HERMS.

I'd prefer to not have to send the mash liquid through the HERMS hex at +5-10 degrees above my desired mash temp.

As for the Blichman gauges, doubtful that they are any different than any other dial thermometer and more than likely produced on the same assembly line for that matter.

 

[augiedoggy]

Confused me as well. I would think that ideally you would not want a lot variance between the temp of the mash & the temp of HLT/HERMS.

I'd prefer to not have to send the mash liquid through the HERMS hex at +5-10 degrees above my desired mash temp.

As for the Blichman gauges, doubtful that they are any different than any other dial thermometer and more than likely produced on the same assembly line for that matter.

Blichmann actually has everything they can made propietary so customers cant mix and match or use off the shelf products to save money...The owner used to work for Caterpillar and learned that this business practice is profitable.

I agree that besides the quality control is likely the same as the my $24 thermometers from bargainfittings.com...(I like them because they have a calibration screw) which I only use on the output of my chiller and to monitor temps coming out of my MT and to my rims which uses a pt100 to monitor temp.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I'm not quite sure what the accuracy of analog thermometer has to do with the herms system which regulates the mash temp through regulating the wort in the herms coil... Its is that which I was commenting on.. does the blichmann thermometers somehow control the herms system or are you somehow doing it manually by observing the thermometers?
my analog thermometer are just for reference now...

I don't leave the HERMS control up to a PID. I have a delta T of about 3.5F between my HEX coil and internal mash temp, so I manually set the HLT temp to mash temp + 3.5 and verify with my analog thermometers. It's simple, reliable, and less prone to technical failures. Also, it gives me more absolute control & flexibility over the hot liquor temp when I'm not recirculating, such as heating up water for strike or sparge.

I mentioned this because you're talking about using a PID to control the HLT based on feedback from the circulating wort, which I advise against for the above reasons.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Confused me as well. I would think that ideally you would not want a lot variance between the temp of the mash & the temp of HLT/HERMS.

I'd prefer to not have to send the mash liquid through the HERMS hex at +5-10 degrees above my desired mash temp.

I think you have a misunderstanding of the concept that I'm discussing here. There will be thermal losses from where the wort leaves the HEX and the convergence of the internal mash temperature at equilibrium. This includes, but is not limited to: losses from fittings, hose, thermometers/temp sensing hardware, and the MLT itself to surrounding air and conduction to adjacent material (i.e. brew stand). Your goal is to maintain a certain temperature of the main thermal mass of the mash, not the small amount of circulating wort which only passes through the HEX for a matter of seconds. To do that, you must compensate for the heat losses (which is usually just a couple-few degrees) by heating the circulating wort with that delta added. If you know the delta, that will be constant unless you brew outdoors. Manually entering the delta is well worth the flexibility of use of your HLT in my experience.

Whether manually entering your HLT to mash + delta or leaving it up to PID logic, that delta is being used to maintain your mash temp either way, unless your probe feedback is taken at HEX output. If you are using the output of the HEX for HLT PID feedback, you will find that the main thermal mass of your mash will be a couple degrees cooler (equal to your delta value) than your desired mash temp value because that process setup does not take the losses into account. If, for some reason, you do not observe any loss between your HEX output and your mash temp (I've only heard one person make this claim), then it doesn't matter where you place the RTD and you can set your HLT to match your desired mash temp.

As for the Blichman gauges, doubtful that they are any different than any other dial thermometer and more than likely produced on the same assembly line for that matter.

I don't know who the OEM is, but I'm guessing it's not the same as just any other dial thermometer. I've use plenty others in my brewing years, and none have had the accuracy and maintained calibration like the Blichmanns.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I agree that besides the quality control is likely the same as the my $24 thermometers from bargainfittings.com...(I like them because they have a calibration screw) which I only use on the output of my chiller and to monitor temps coming out of my MT and to my rims which uses a pt100 to monitor temp.

Blichmanns have calibration screws, too.

 

[cantrell00]

I think you have a misunderstanding of the concept that I'm discussing here. There will be thermal losses from where the wort leaves the HEX and the convergence of the internal mash temperature at equilibrium. This includes, but is not limited to: losses from fittings, hose, thermometers/temp sensing hardware, and the MLT itself to surrounding air and conduction to adjacent material (i.e. brew stand). Your goal is to maintain a certain temperature of the main thermal mass of the mash, not the small amount of circulating wort which only passes through the HEX for a matter of seconds. To do that, you must compensate for the heat losses (which is usually just a couple-few degrees) by heating the circulating wort with that delta added. If you know the delta, that will be constant unless you brew outdoors. Manually entering the delta is well worth the flexibility of use of your HLT in my experience.

Whether manually entering your HLT to mash + delta or leaving it up to PID logic, that delta is being used to maintain your mash temp either way, unless your probe feedback is taken at HEX output. If you are using the output of the HEX for HLT PID feedback, you will find that the main thermal mass of your mash will be a couple degrees cooler (equal to your delta value) than your desired mash temp value because that process setup does not take the losses into account. If, for some reason, you do not observe any loss between your HEX output and your mash temp (I've only heard one person make this claim), then it doesn't matter where you place the RTD and you can set your HLT to match your desired mash temp.


I don't know who the OEM is, but I'm guessing it's not the same as just any other dial thermometer. I've use plenty others in my brewing years, and none have had the accuracy and maintained calibration like the Blichmanns.

I am measuring at a variety of locations, out of HERMS (PID), 6" probe into the mash, return into mash, & where mash liquid exits the cooler MLT.

I also have a gauge on the HLT.

Only when I moved the PID probe from the MLT to the hex return did the variance between the two go away.

To each their own but Kal's method worked best for me.

As for the quality of gauge debate, a thermometer is a simple device. If the fact that Blichmann is written across the front of it gives you peace of mind, it was worth what you paid for it.

 

[augiedoggy]

As for the quality of gauge debate, a thermometer is a simple device. If the fact that Blichmann is written across the front of it gives you peace of mind, it was worth what you paid for it.

Plus you get the excellent "support" you pay for... they will not only assist you in wrapping the teflon tape on the treads but they will educate you on how to read a thermometer! :cross:

(In all honesty the blichmann thermometers are really pretty reasonably priced but I couldnt resist )

 

[augiedoggy]

I think you have a misunderstanding of the concept that I'm discussing here. There will be thermal losses from where the wort leaves the HEX and the convergence of the internal mash temperature at equilibrium. This includes, but is not limited to: losses from fittings, hose, thermometers/temp sensing hardware, and the MLT itself to surrounding air and conduction to adjacent material (i.e. brew stand). Your goal is to maintain a certain temperature of the main thermal mass of the mash, not the small amount of circulating wort which only passes through the HEX for a matter of seconds. To do that, you must compensate for the heat losses (which is usually just a couple-few degrees) by heating the circulating wort with that delta added. If you know the delta, that will be constant unless you brew outdoors. Manually entering the delta is well worth the flexibility of use of your HLT in my experience.

Whether manually entering your HLT to mash + delta or leaving it up to PID logic, that delta is being used to maintain your mash temp either way, unless your probe feedback is taken at HEX output. If you are using the output of the HEX for HLT PID feedback, you will find that the main thermal mass of your mash will be a couple degrees cooler (equal to your delta value) than your desired mash temp value because that process setup does not take the losses into account. If, for some reason, you do not observe any loss between your HEX output and your mash temp (I've only heard one person make this claim), then it doesn't matter where you place the RTD and you can set your HLT to match your desired mash temp.


I don't know who the OEM is, but I'm guessing it's not the same as just any other dial thermometer. I've use plenty others in my brewing years, and none have had the accuracy and maintained calibration like the Blichmanns.

Yup your an engineer all right... took something simple and complicated it as much as you possibly could

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I am measuring at a variety of locations, out of HERMS (PID), 6" probe into the mash, return into mash, & where mash liquid exits the cooler MLT.

I also have a gauge on the HLT.

Only when I moved the PID probe from the MLT to the hex return did the variance between the two go away.

The delta didn't "go away," you're just using different temperature data to control the PID. The delta is still there; it was there when you had your RTD probe in a different spot, and it's there now. My previous post explains this phenomenon.

To each their own but Kal's method worked best for me.

You're right; to each their own. Carry on with whichever method of PID control makes you feel better, but that's your prerogative. I don't know Kal's exact process, but I can tell you the concepts I described are true and very real. Unless you have an adiabatic MLT with added heat sources on your HEX return plumbing and hardware, you still have that same delta that you did before. The only difference now, is that you tightened up your data boundary so that you're not using the previous data spread to control the HLT PID. In other words, you are using the temperature of the recirculating wort to control the HLT PID, not the overall mash temp.

As for the quality of gauge debate, a thermometer is a simple device. If the fact that Blichmann is written across the front of it gives you peace of mind, it was worth what you paid for it.

I could not care less what it says on my instrumentation. This isn't brand loyalty. I've gone through several bimetallic thermometers over the years, and these Blichmann ones are the only ones that I've tried that are not only more accurate, but maintain their accurracy longest after calibration. Your narrow view that all bimetallic thermometers are the same clearly shows that you don't really know what you're talking about in this case. Sorry bud, I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Yup your an engineer all right... took something simple and complicated it as much as you possibly could

Heh, yeah yeah, but in all seriousness... It really wasn't something simple; you guys just oversimplified it by not taking into account some elements of the system setup.

I apologize if I'm not explaining this clearly enough. It seems as though I'm not, based on some of the replies.

 

[cantrell00]

Thanks for enlightening us.

I feel so much more fulfilled now.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Thanks for enlightening us.

I feel so much more fulfilled now.

Your ignorance and sarcasm duly noted. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't make it not true. I tried to help.

Good luck!

 

[augiedoggy]

Heh, yeah yeah, but in all seriousness... It really wasn't something simple; you guys just oversimplified it by not taking into account some elements of the system setup.

I apologize if I'm not explaining this clearly enough. It seems as though I'm not, based on some of the replies.

No I understand and I was kidding (mostly since I do deal with engineers everyday and its in my job title as well )
What im getting at is as long as the water in the HLT circulating around and temps are stable you can indeed just use a pid with a temp sensor at either the entrance to the mlt or the exit and it will work just fine to maintain steady mash temps. this is the way most people do it and it does work great. if you put the probe at the intake on the mlt you will never overheat the mash... sure there are other ways to skin a cat but this simple solution works great.
I have switched to a rims setup and I use an rtd sensor at the exit of my rims tube to measure temps... I lose about 1 degree in the hoses to the MT and account for this by just setting my rims pid to 153 if I want to mash at 152... simple and works well....

 

[Tiber_Brew]

No I understand and I was kidding (mostly since I do deal with engineers everyday and its in my job title as well )

Engineers are a different breed - I'll admit to that.

What im getting at is as long as the water in the HLT circulating around and temps are stable you can indeed just use a pid with a temp sensor at either the entrance to the mlt or the exit and it will work just fine to maintain steady mash temps.

Steady, yes. Accurate? Well...off by whatever your delta is, which will depend on where the data is taken from and how much loss occurs between the main thermal mass of the mash and where that data was taken from. Could be 2F, could be 6F or more. Could be 0F, though extremely unlikely.

this is the way most people do it and it does work great. if you put the probe at the intake on the mlt you will never overheat the mash... sure there are other ways to skin a cat but this simple solution works great.

I dunno about most. I've helped plenty people build eHERMS and have seen many many more, and still the only one I've seen yet that uses circulating wort temp data for HLT PID control is Kal and the army of clones. Anyway, I'm not saying the method you describe wouldn't work, but what I am saying is to pay attention to the fact that you might be mashing a few degrees lower than you think you are. Like I've said before, we're most interested in the temperature of the main thermal mass of the mash, not the recirculating wort. If the temperature of the recirculating wort is taken from a point where the delta is within 1F, then this isn't an issue and you're good to go. If you use the temperature of the recirculating wort with a more significant delta, then you are optimizing for the wrong metrics. Don't let the temp at the HEX output fool you. For most people, mashing within 3 or 4 degrees of target is good enough. If you're noticing off flavors or unusual attenuation numbers, then perhaps consider what I said and try a different arrangement.

I have switched to a rims setup and I use an rtd sensor at the exit of my rims tube to measure temps... I lose about 1 degree in the hoses to the MT and account for this by just setting my rims pid to 153 if I want to mash at 152... simple and works well....

OK, that's at the core of what I'm saying. But also consider the losses from the MLT itself. Is yours insulated? The method you just described isn't the same as when you guys were talking about putting the HLT probe at the HEX output on a HERMS.

 

[augiedoggy]

Thats what I use the analog thermometers for at the exit tee of my mlt.(non blichmann Milijoco brand but been keeping accurate temps for almost a year now) .. to monitor and keep an eye on the temps of exiting wort thats recirculating... I just switched to stainless and have yet to see how badly this effects things but I realize my temp losses will be greater and have stepped up the size and length on my rims to accommodate this.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Thats what I use the analog thermometers for at the exit tee of my mlt.(non blichmann Milijoco brand but been keeping accurate temps for almost a year now) .. to monitor and keep an eye on the temps of exiting wort thats recirculating... I just switched to stainless and have yet to see how badly this effects things but I realize my temp losses will be greater and have stepped up the size and length on my rims to accommodate this.

OK, so you definitely get what I'm saying here, because you're actually using this concept of the "delta" to control your mash temps properly. Cool.

Why, then, would you do it differently for HERMS?

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Thats what I use the analog thermometers for at the exit tee of my mlt.(non blichmann Milijoco brand but been keeping accurate temps for almost a year now)

I just want to note that I'm in no way trying to be a fanboy of Blichmann thermometers. If you have one that works well for you, that's great! I don't think I've tried the brand that you are using, but I can assure you that the previous ones I have used weren't sufficient for me.

 

[gaelmartin]

Hi everyone, I know this is an old post and there is a lot of pages but I didn't find an answer to a question I have. I'm building the exact same panel except my breaker is in a spa panel. Was just wondering if I can just skip the breaker part in the wiring plan? Thank's

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Hi everyone, I know this is an old post and there is a lot of pages but I didn't find an answer to a question I have. I'm building the exact same panel except my breaker is in a spa panel. Was just wondering if I can just skip the breaker part in the wiring plan? Thank's

I'm guessing there's one 50A breaker in your spa panel, correct? If so, then I would still include the breakers in the brew panel. It's not absolutely necessary, but I used breakers to protect individual circuits, instead of just the one large one for the whole supply. This is just a measure to protect the components in my panel.

 

[gaelmartin]

Thank's for the reply! Yes there is a 50A breaker in the spa panel. but I guess i'll put one inside as well since I dont want to fry those expensives components!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Thank's for the reply! Yes there is a 50A breaker in the spa panel. but I guess i'll put one inside as well since I dont want to fry those expensives components!

I've got one 30A breaker for each of my 240V circuits, and a 15A breaker for my 120V circuit, totaling three breakers inside my panel.

 

[gaelmartin]

Hey Mr. Tiber! Just want to say that your post, pictures and advises for the breakers were really helpful for my own control panel. Finally done! Thank's!!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Hey Mr. Tiber! Just want to say that your post, pictures and advises for the breakers were really helpful for my own control panel. Finally done! Thank's!!

Good work! Glad I could help

 

[Aristee]

Quick question here for I am no electrician..

Why are the receptacles for the elements rated for 30A, when the contactors are for 40A ? And if I understand correctly the wiring diagram, 2 hot lines of 25A goes in the contactors ? Just want to be sure that I understand correctly because I don't want to start a fire in my basement

 

[augiedoggy]

Quick question here for I am no electrician..

Why are the receptacles for the elements rated for 30A, when the contactors are for 40A ? And if I understand correctly the wiring diagram, 2 hot lines of 25A goes in the contactors ? Just want to be sure that I understand correctly because I don't want to start a fire in my basement

it doesnt hurt to use components that are rated to be able to handle more amps than your using them for (except breakers and fuses) .... the other way around is not safe though...

the elements will only draw 23amps each at most if he is using 5500w elements...

 

[augiedoggy]

Hi everyone, I know this is an old post and there is a lot of pages but I didn't find an answer to a question I have. I'm building the exact same panel except my breaker is in a spa panel. Was just wondering if I can just skip the breaker part in the wiring plan? Thank's

fuses would be more economical, easier and work just as well... I actually have all my pids,and timer on one 1amp fuse and each element power should be on a 25a breaker or fuse ideally...

 

[Aristee]

I have a question about the emergency kill switch. If I understand correctly the diagram, if you push the button, you close the circuit wich sends currant directly to the ground bus, tripping the GFCI circuit breaker. So does it mean that the switch has to be Normally Open? The one I bought is a NC switch and I am not sure anymore if it's the right one...

 

[RufusBrewer]

Quick question here for I am no electrician..

Why are the receptacles for the elements rated for 30A, when the contactors are for 40A ? And if I understand correctly the wiring diagram, 2 hot lines of 25A goes in the contactors ? Just want to be sure that I understand correctly because I don't want to start a fire in my basement

For most devices the voltage and current ratings are "This Device Will Operate Properly and Safely As Long As You Do Not Exceed This Value."

A 40 amp contactor can open/close and turn on 0-40 amps. You could use it to switch 1/2 an amp, if you wanted. Hypothetically, at 40.01 amps you are exceeding the safe operating area for that contactor and at risk of damaging it.

In the example of the combination of contactor and receptacle, the receptacle 30 amp rating limits the associated circuit and you should not exceed 30 amps.

Some devices the voltage and current ratings is what they require to operate properly. One example is a 100 watt light bulb. It is telling you it will draw 100 watts of power. Therefore the circuit and it's associated components should be rated for 120 VAC @ ~1.0 amp.