Electric brewery plans - need help

[SweetSounds]

The contactors are used as interlocks - A hard disconnect to ensure that when you think there's no power to something, it's really dead.

SSRs have a bad habit of failing "Closed" when they blow - Providing power to the element, even without the PID turning them on.

 

[Dark_Brew]

I guess what I'm really wondering is why not just use the PID to control the contactor?

 

[SweetSounds]

I guess what I'm really wondering is why not just use the PID to control the contactor?

Because contactors are not rated for the cycles required for a PWM.

Essentially, when the PID says 50% power - It's on 100% for 1/2 the time. So at a 2 second interval, that's a contactor cycle every 1 second.
If the contactor is rated for 100,000 cycles, it would take 100,000 seconds to reach MTBF, or 27.7 hours - About 5 or 6 brews, potentially, before the contactor would fail.

The solid state relays are rated for millions of cycles because there are no mechanical parts to wear out.

So SSR's control the power, and the contactors protect us from rogue SSRs

 

[Dark_Brew]

There we go, that makes sense. I just came off a 12 hour night shift with a long drive home. I knew there had to be some logic to it, but with my current mental capacity I was struggling to find it. Thanks

 

[Randar]

Wouldn't the wort ride up the threads like a spiral staircase?
If it's not, I would imagine that you have to squeeze the silicone hard enough to squish it into the threads... Doesn't that cut the hose?

I did not grind the threads down on mine and worked the 1/2" ID silicone tuning over the stock threads. They do not leak as long as you do not create positive pressure (pump outlet for example). And simple hose clamps solved this issue for me.

The only concern I have is if the extreme stretching to get over the threads and the clamping will create a weakness in the tubing that might create a point of failure in the long run.

Done a few test runs and one brew session and no issue so far.

 

[kal]

SweetSounds is exactly right. The default duty cycle on most PIDs is 2-4 seconds which means lot of on/off switching. You can increase this time which would lessen the wear and tear on a mechanical relay but it would still eventually wear out faster than an SSR. You also don't want extremely long cycle times in your boil kettle as you'd get a vigorous boil for (say) 10-20 seconds followed by 10-20 seconds of simmer. You want the boil to appear (more or less) continuous.

Kal

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I just wanted to jump in and say thank you for all the documenting you've done on this build. It looks amazing. I've read this entire thread twice today. I would definitely be interested in seeing a complete parts list. I only have about 20 or 30 brews under my belt with my current system, but I see myself heading this direction sooner than later. It would be nice to start picking up items as my funds allow.

I did have one question, you are using both SSR's and contactors. I've been trying to understand exactly why.

Thanks and congrats on your successful build.

DB

Thanks bud!

I will re-post a parts list, but it will take some time. I kept pretty good track of things for the most part, but towards the end, things got a bit hectic. I will have to do some serious digging to find all the reciepts and purchase orders, but I'll do the best I can. I ended up spending more than I had planned, but what project is ever on budget, really?

Also, it looks as though our friends have answered your question already, but if you have any more, let me know.

TiberI'llpostitIpromiseBrew

 

[Tiber_Brew]

More successful brews this weekend! :rockin: I'm getting far better starting gravity than I was with the cooler and turkey fryer setup, and brewing itself is just a pleasure on this thing. I'm getting my process streamlined more and more with each batch, and I've got it to 4.5 hours from milling grain to the end of CIP. Some brews will take longer for when I do longer boils and mashes, etc...

There is now an orchestra of airlocks and blow-off tubes making quite a racket in my fermentation spot. I love that sound...

There was one thing, though... During CIP, I let the HLT element dry fire for about 5 minutes or so. I thought of it and immediately turned off the element from the control panel, looked inside to see a couple glowing red spots on the element (not the whole thing), and quickly poured some cold water in the tun. After everything was cleaned up, I did a quick inspection, and it looks like no harm was done, but I'll definitely tweak the CIP process so that will never happen again. I'm convinced that the ULD element was worth the extra few bucks.

Cheers,
TB

 

[klyph]

Good work, keep it up!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Thanks!

 

[maztec]

Just finished building my electric kit. Also using it as a sous vide, but need to get a march pump to help circulation (and make my life easier).

However, quick question, I read through this thread (okay, I skipped pages 15-20) and didn't see anyone explain why you want a dual pole SSR or two SSR's for a 220v load. That is, why do you want one SSR per hot wire? I am using a single SSR on one of the hot wires and everything seems to be fine. I have a big, plastic, two pole waterproof switch that cuts power to both wires, but leaves the PID on. I haven't experienced any problems and the only thing I can think of is the risk that the non-SSR hot lead will ground out or somehow keep the element hot despite the other line being disconnected by the SSR. Except, I don't experience much of a problem as a result of that and if I want the heating element off, I just flip the switch.

Thanks!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Just finished building my electric kit. Also using it as a sous vide, but need to get a march pump to help circulation (and make my life easier).

However, quick question, I read through this thread (okay, I skipped pages 15-20) and didn't see anyone explain why you want a dual pole SSR or two SSR's for a 220v load. That is, why do you want one SSR per hot wire? I am using a single SSR on one of the hot wires and everything seems to be fine. I have a big, plastic, two pole waterproof switch that cuts power to both wires, but leaves the PID on. I haven't experienced any problems and the only thing I can think of is the risk that the non-SSR hot lead will ground out or somehow keep the element hot despite the other line being disconnected by the SSR. Except, I don't experience much of a problem as a result of that and if I want the heating element off, I just flip the switch.

Thanks!

This post, and the 3 before it, reveal that I'm indeed not using the SSRDs afterall.

Besides the rationale given in the post in that link, I had another reason to switch to the standard relay instead of the dual. SSRs are far more likely to fail under inductive loads, than resistive loads. We brewers typically use them for resistive loads. In other words, we are using them to switch a large resistor (heating element), instead of a large coil (i.e. motor), which would be an inductive load. Contrary to what you read (all too often on HBT), SSRs are not as likely to fail as you think when using them for a resistive load.

Does that guarantee that it will never fail? No. Nothing is guaranteed, and that's why we take safety measures wherever and whenever we can with this sort of project.

The reason why a SSRD or one SSR per leg would be an added backup would be that BOTH legs of the circuit will be switched. Typically, SSRs fail closed, keeping the circuit energized even when the input voltage isn't there. If one were to fail, the other leg would still be switched, cutting power to the element. I, personally, did not find that extra measure necessary with this application, and opted not to do that. I would never discourage anyone from doing that, however.

TB

 

[maztec]

Tiber_Brew: Cool, thanks! Then I'm not going to worry about it. If it ramps up and doesn't stop heating it just means I'll have a lot of boiling water on my hands and maybe a ruined batch.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Tiber_Brew: Cool, thanks! Then I'm not going to worry about it. If it ramps up and doesn't stop heating it just means I'll have a lot of boiling water on my hands and maybe a ruined batch.

The results could be worse, but not likely. I considered a quick FMEA (failure modes and effects analysis), and came up with reasonable risks, considering the probabilities and the extra safety steps I took in the design. I think you'll be fine with switching just one leg instead of two, but that decision might meet some dissent.

If it were to come to that, hopefully you'll have the means to manually cut the power to the elements, or at least an EPO.

Good luck in your build! Hope it goes well. I can say, after 4 batches, that I love electric brewing, and I'm sure you will too.

TB

 

[maztec]

I have done about six batches electric, but while putting my kit together. The first six batches I would like to call "extreme-hazard beer". Nothing like having the risk of electrocution to sharpen your day! It's finally all boxed, waterproofed, and put together efficiently. Plus, so far, it seems to maintain temperature within 0.1C.

Things can always be worse, with any system you use, but sometimes you have to calculate the odds of it actually happening. Maybe when I upgrade I'll go to dual SSR's, but I see little reason to do so now.

Now, I wish I had as sexy a box setup as you do. I should post picks of mine sometime soon. It's a single switch system. It's either on or it's off. I don't have a march pump yet, but when I add that I will probably have to add more switches, but until then I'm happy with how it works.

---

Actually, a reasonable question. When I switch my unit off, I have it wired so the PID stays on so I can monitor temperature. However, if I don't tell the PID I've stopped using it .. it's going to keep monitoring the water and attempting to open the SSR circuit to get it back up to temperature. The question is, will this mess up the PID's automatic algorithms and learning? Or will it adjust for this fairly quickly once flipped back on?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

---

Actually, a reasonable question. When I switch my unit off, I have it wired so the PID stays on so I can monitor temperature. However, if I don't tell the PID I've stopped using it .. it's going to keep monitoring the water and attempting to open the SSR circuit to get it back up to temperature. The question is, will this mess up the PID's automatic algorithms and learning? Or will it adjust for this fairly quickly once flipped back on?

No worries turning off your PID. It doesn't "learn" unless you are running it in the Auto Tune mode.

Ed

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Now, I wish I had as sexy a box setup as you do.

Thanks! I can honestly say that is the first time I've been told I have a "sexy box".

I should post picks of mine sometime soon. It's a single switch system. It's either on or it's off. I don't have a march pump yet, but when I add that I will probably have to add more switches, but until then I'm happy with how it works.

Yeah, let's have a look at your system! Good luck with your upgrade when you do that! Post pictures, and ask questions.

TB

 

[loserbrewer]

Tiber brew,

I was hoping you could answer a few questions for me. I am following you plans to put together my brewery. Can you post links for the following parts that you ordered:

DIN rail
15 amp din mount circuit breakers
25 amp din mount circuit breakers


Thanks for all the work posting your project and congratulations on you successful build!!

 

[Gabrew]

Tiber brew,

I was hoping you could answer a few questions for me. I am following you plans to put together my brewery. Can you post links for the following parts that you ordered:

DIN rail
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...Component_Type)/Rails_-a-_Brackets/DN-R35S1-2

15 amp din mount circuit breakers
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...1_Series)/B_Curve_(6A-63A,_WMZS1Bxx)/WMZS1B15

25 amp din mount circuit breakers
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...2_Series)/B_Curve_(6A-63A,_WMZS2Bxx)/WMZS2B25


Thanks for all the work posting your project and congratulations on you successful build!!

This is where I got my stuff...

 

[Gabrew]

.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Tiber brew,

I was hoping you could answer a few questions for me. I am following you plans to put together my brewery. Can you post links for the following parts that you ordered:

DIN rail
15 amp din mount circuit breakers
25 amp din mount circuit breakers

This is where I got my stuff...

That's where I got mine, too, except I got my DIN rail on ebay for $5 shipped. I would check eBay for a DIN rail, since I've seen a few cheap ones there in the past.

Thanks for all the work posting your project and congratulations on you successful build!!

Thanks! It's my pleasure. I'm glad it's of some help to others, since I myself got some help from fellow HBT'ers.

TB

 

[Tiber_Brew]

After brewing 5 batches on the new system, I've found that there's only two things I would have done differently:

1. Use twist lock connectivity for the 30A outlets/plugs. There's nothing particularly wrong with my straight blade setup, but for some reason, I'd feel better with twist locks.

2. I would mount the Blichmann dial thermometer lower on the MLT so 5 gal batches would cover the stem. I did a low gravity 5 gal batch, and the mash didn't quite come up to the stem, even with 1.5 qt/lb of water. It was no problem, I still have my old temp probe from the Igloo cooler mashing days, but it'd be nice to have it work for smaller 5 gal batches too. (Although I'm pretty much only doing 10 gal batches now...)

Maybe I'll find more, but, really, this system kicks a$$, and I love brewing on it! I'm also drinking a beer that I made with it, and I must admit I'm thoroughly enjoying that too!

Cheers,
TB

 

[Layne]

Wow, you really dialed in your design along the way, to only have those minor details on your 'do differently list' Cheers!

 

[Layne]

This thread is a testament to hard work and the huge sharing of information on the board.

The thread begins with, I have an idea and need some help, and ends up with a great looking and performing brew rig.
Cheers Tiber Brew, and Cheers HBT!!

 

[shuie]

Congrats. This thread has been a huge help for me in planning, sourcing parts, and building my own system. I will probably finish wiring my panel tonight because of the information that has been posted here. I wouldn't be anywhere near as far along if this build had not been documented the way that it has here. Thanks again to everyone who has contributed.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Wow, you really dialed in your design along the way, to only have those minor details on your 'do differently list' Cheers!

Lots of thinking, 3D modeling, asking, more thinking...I'm grateful to have such good resources, such as HBT of course, as well. I literally had this whole system modeled in my head, on paper, and in CAE software, imagining myself brewing on it before I made one cut, weld, or connection.

This thread is a testament to hard work and the huge sharing of information on the board.

The thread begins with, I have an idea and need some help, and ends up with a great looking and performing brew rig.
Cheers Tiber Brew, and Cheers HBT!!

I'll say! The biggest challenge was figuring out what to do with the control panel, and of course several knowledgeable people chimed in willing to help me. I also got some great ideas for the rest of the build from others here on HBT, including Kal's website www.theelectricbrewery.com. There is no doubt that this build would not have turned out the way it did without HBT.

Congrats. This thread has been a huge help for me in planning, sourcing parts, and building my own system. I will probably finish wiring my panel tonight because of the information that has been posted here. I wouldn't be anywhere near as far along if this build had not been documented the way that it has here. Thanks again to everyone who has contributed.

I'm glad this thread has helped you as much as it has helped me. I'm a big advocate of paying it forward, so I tried to document everything I did so that others could follow my steps if they liked what I did.

Cheers guys!
TB

 

[Gabrew]

love the fact that your having such a great time with your setup!

Any ideas/future modification with your sparge arm or are you fully satisfied with the way it is?

 

[Tiber_Brew]

love the fact that your having such a great time with your setup!

That's what we're here for, right? Don't get me wrong; designing and building is fun, especially for an engineer, but nothing holds a candle to brewin and drinkin.

Any ideas/future modification with your sparge arm or are you fully satisfied with the way it is?

Couldn't be happier. No changes planned.

TB

 

[Gabrew]

so you just sit your sparge arm atop your grain bed?

 

[Tiber_Brew]

so you just sit your sparge arm atop your grain bed?

Yep.