Electric brewery plans - need help

[SweetSounds]

1. I'm not sure what kind of terminal blocks to get, and where to get them. I've looked on www.digikey.com and www.automation.com, among others, but there are several choices and I want to make sure I don't have to order anything more than once, or worse yet, put the wrong thing in my CP and fry something (or someone).

2. Also, the same for the breakers. What kind? Where? Safety first.

3. What kind of fuses and fuse mounts to get, and where?

4. What's the best way to cut the square holes in the enclosure panel for the PIDs? I've got a 22.5 mm knock out punch for the switches, but the square knock outs go for around $400. Is it time to invest in a Dremel? What methods have you heard/seen/done?

5. I noticed the wiring diagram doesn't have a master power switch. If I were to use one, again - how to select the right one and where to buy?

P-J, Would I wire that with L1 and L2 right after the terminal blocks?

6. Also, I'm thinking of using a 4500W element in the HLT now instead of the 5500W. Any changes to the schematic? Any parts changes besides the element of course?

Thanks again,
TB

1) Not sure - As long as they are rated for the current, you're fine. No worries with too big
2) If you're going DIN, I haven't found them any cheaper than Automation Direct, And I looked... A lot.
3) I haven't looked into fuses - Breakers all the way in my rig - You're on your own... I would think anything rated for the current will get you there.
4) I used a "Roto-Zip" like tool. It's not a roto-zip brand, but it worked great, with a little cleanup with a file.
5) +1 to instapman - You can use your master circuit breaker as your primary disconnect.
6) I don't think anything changes if you go to 4500 watts. You could, however, go to a 25 amp SSR to save some grain $$ and still have some (4.6 amps, or 18%) headroom...

 

[Walker]

1. I'm not sure what kind of terminal blocks to get, and where to get them. I've looked on www.digikey.com and www.automation.com, among others, but there are several choices and I want to make sure I don't have to order anything more than once, or worse yet, put the wrong thing in my CP and fry something (or someone).

For what it's worth, I used DIN rail mounted distribution blocks. They are modular so you can pretty much add as many as you want and they were not very expensive. My stuff was all rated for 50A and 240V, so cheaper things might be available, but it was still pretty damn cheap to get the 50A stuff.

Links to the modular power distribution stuff at mouser.com are in this post:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-herms-build-ready-criticism-173077/#post2003768

4. What's the best way to cut the square holes in the enclosure panel for the PIDs? I've got a 22.5 mm knock out punch for the switches, but the square knock outs go for around $400. Is it time to invest in a Dremel? What methods have you heard/seen/done?

HA HA HA!

What kind of enclosure are you buying? Plastic? Steel? The material for the enclosure makes a WORLD of difference when it comes to cutting holes!

I snagged a pretty good sized 12 gauge steel enclosure for a BITCHIN' price on ebay and was pretty proud of myself. But then.... I had to cut lots of small rectangles in it because I bought rectangular rocker switches. An, of course, the PID needed a big square cut for it, too.

Cutting those holes was a royal PITA. Drilling round holes was no problem at all. My cheap-o cordless drill was able to do it easily, I just had to take a couple steps with increasing bit sizes to get large holes, but it was still pretty easy.

I bought a dremel thinking I could use it for the squares and rectangles.

NOPE.

It was slow slow slooooooooooooow going, the dremel would get HOT, the battery would have to be recharged often, and I was going through the little cutting disks rapidly. I ended up tossing the dremel to the side completely.

I took a drill bit and went around the whole outline of the hole I wanted to cut drilling many holes very close together. Then I took a tungsten carbide cutting bit that was meant for the dremel and put it in my old plug-in drill and used that to "connect the dots". Then I used a dremel grinding stone (installed in my drill) to grind off the shark tooth shaped pieces of metal that were left around the edges, and then finally had to hand file the edges to get them clean and large enough to slide my components into.

My bitching and moaning can be found here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/control-box-enclosures-some-tips-anyone-considering-168536/

If your enclosure is plastic, then a dremel will rip through it like butter. If your enclosure is steel, the thickness of it could make your life difficult.

I spent many many nights in a row out in the garage drilling, grinding, and filing holes in my steel box. In retrospect, I think I would have been happier and saved my self hours of work by just taking a jigsaw and cutting out almost the whole front of the box (one LARGE window) and then using the company Front Panel Express (link is in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/control-panel-labeling-give-us-some-ideas-159796/) to layout a sweet looking panel on a sheet of aluminum with text labels on everything, and then paying $50 for that company to punch, cut and engrave the thing and send it to me. I could have just installed it on my box with a few screws.

More expensive for sure, but when I think about the pain I went through....

If I ever decide to make enough changes to my system that I need to reorganize the panel, I am going to do exactly what I described. Cut the whole front of the panel off and hire those guys to make me a nice one.

 

[instapman]

I have installed several of PID's in CPs of all type. The best way for ME is to mark your "square hole" then drill a 5/8 hole in one corner inside of the the "square hole" then take a sawz all to it....carefully...very carefully...this never fails for me. If you go with a plastic CP then this would be made easy just like Walker said.

 

[Sawdustguy]

What's the best way to cut the square holes in the enclosure panel for the PIDs? I've got a 22.5 mm knock out punch for the switches, but the square knock outs go for around $400. Is it time to invest in a Dremel? What methods have you heard/seen/done?

I did my square cutouts with a Bridgeport Milling Machine. It's really the easiest way to cut a nice square hole. I am lucky because my next door neighbor owns a machine shop. When he goes in on Saturday to do his paperwork he lets me use one of his Bridgeports.

 

[SweetSounds]

I did my square cutouts with a Bridgeport Milling Machine. It's really the easiest way to cut a nice square hole. I am lucky because my next door neighbor owns a machine shop. When he goes in on Saturday to do his paperwork he lets me use one of his Bridgeports.

Cheater

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I bought a steel enclosure. I wanted it to dissipate some of the internal heat, and polymer boxes are more insulating.

I'll punch out the round holes for the switches with my knockout punch, easy as pie. But, for the square holes, I like Sawdustguy's approach. I still live in the same town where I went to engineering school, and still know some people who have access to the machine shops. If that falls through, I'll struggle with some of the other methods mentioned and do my best.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

OK, after further searching, I've got more questions, some related to previous ones:

1. I've decided to get chassis mount terminal blocks, but I'm not sure about which ones to buy. I'm guessing each of the ones from the diagram are identical? What's the minimum current rating I'll need? Will these work for my application?

2. I'm confused about the 15 amp 120V double breaker. Is that the same as a double pole breaker? From P-J's diagram, it appears that there's one line in, and two out.

I'm looking at getting this for the 15 amp 120V breaker, and these for the 25 amp 240V breakers. Thoughts?

Thanks again for all the help.
TB

 

[P-J]

OK, after further searching, I've got more questions, some related to previous ones:

1. I've decided to get chassis mount terminal blocks, but I'm not sure about which ones to buy. I'm guessing each of the ones from the diagram are identical? What's the minimum current rating I'll need? Will these work for my application?

2. I'm confused about the 15 amp 120V double breaker. Is that the same as a double pole breaker? From P-J's diagram, it appears that there's one line in, and two out.

I'm looking at getting this for the 15 amp 120V breaker, and these for the 25 amp 240V breakers. Thoughts?

Thanks again for all the help.
TB

Re: 1. The terminal blocks for the 240 volts should be rated for the wire size (current delivered) on the input to the block. The last diagram shows that to be 60 amps. based on the current supplied and the total demand for the application. The neutral and ground blocks can be smaller as they will be carrying far less current.
2: The 15 amp double breaker is simply a breaker that is manufactured to fit into a single breaker position in a main panel. It is 2 single breakers that occupy 1 position. With your mounting plan, you would need 2 - 15 amp 120V breakers. The one you link to is a 240V double breaker.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you need some mods done to the diagram.

 

[instapman]

Dang, P-J beat me to it. According to the data sheet posted with the terminal blocks, they are rated for 30 amps. If you get 2 of these and divide your amp drap correctly they would work. Keep in mind you would have to bring 30 amps to each block, not hooking one up to the other, that puts your amp draw at 60 amps on your first block. Not sure how that would work with your diagram as I have not looked at it close enough...time to read up....


P-J-- knucks to you for modifying your diagram, nice to see going out of their way to be helpful...

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Re: 1. The terminal blocks for the 240 volts should be rated for the wire size (current delivered) on the input to the block. The last diagram shows that to be 60 amps. based on the current supplied and the total demand for the application. The neutral and ground blocks can be smaller as they will be carrying far less current.

OK, thanks!

2: The 15 amp double breaker is simply a breaker that is manufactured to fit into a single breaker position in a main panel. It is 2 single breakers that occupy 1 position. With your mounting plan, you would need 2 - 15 amp 120V breakers. The one you link to is a 240V double breaker.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you need some mods done to the diagram.

Excellent. Makes sense to me.

Dang, P-J beat me to it. According to the data sheet posted with the terminal blocks, they are rated for 30 amps. If you get 2 of these and divide your amp drap correctly they would work. Keep in mind you would have to bring 30 amps to each block, not hooking one up to the other, that puts your amp draw at 60 amps on your first block. Not sure how that would work with your diagram as I have not looked at it close enough...time to read up....

I think I'll try to find a terminal block rated for the current I'm using for simplicity. Anyone know a good place to start? I've been looking at www.digikey.com and www.newark.com.

P-J-- knucks to you for modifying your diagram, nice to see going out of their way to be helpful...

No kidding. That was really nice of him to do that for me. What a great bunch of people homebrewers are, eh?

TiberthankstothesparkysBrew

 

[Walker]

When I built mine earlier this year, I honestly could not find terminal strips rated for over 30A anywhere without them costing INSANE amounts of money.

That's why I went with that modular DIN rail stuff I posted earlier for the initial incoming high current part of the box. Everything between the 50A GFI breaker in my panel and the smaller breakers inside my control panel is rated for 50A or more.

From that central power distribution block, my hot lines go immediately to smaller breakers to limit the current into the other parts of the design. Once I had those breakers in there, I was able to use the smaller terminal strips to distribute power to all of my 120V items (pumps, switches, PID, PWM).

50A GFI breaker -> 50A receptacle -> 50A plug -> 65A power cable -> 50A power distribution -> smaller breakers -> terminal strips

 

[P-J]

I think I'll try to find a terminal block rated for the current I'm using for simplicity. Anyone know a good place to start? I've been looking at www.digikey.com and www.newark.com.

From newark.com You would need 2 of these for the 2 - 240V lines. The neutral and ground terminal strips will be carrying a max of 15 amps so a much smaller strip can be used for them.

HTH

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Re: 1. The terminal blocks for the 240 volts should be rated for the wire size (current delivered) on the input to the block. The last diagram shows that to be 60 amps. based on the current supplied and the total demand for the application. The neutral and ground blocks can be smaller as they will be carrying far less current.
2: The 15 amp double breaker is simply a breaker that is manufactured to fit into a single breaker position in a main panel. It is 2 single breakers that occupy 1 position. With your mounting plan, you would need 2 - 15 amp 120V breakers. The one you link to is a 240V double breaker.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you need some mods done to the diagram.

I bought two of these for the 120V circuits, and two of these for the 240V circuits.

One question though: in your diagram, there is only one line going to the double 15A breakers, but two coming out. Is that a mistake? How would I wire it with the breakers I've got (above)? Could show that on the diagram? I have an idea, but want to make sure.

Thanks P-J!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

When I built mine earlier this year, I honestly could not find terminal strips rated for over 30A anywhere without them costing INSANE amounts of money.

That's why I went with that modular DIN rail stuff I posted earlier for the initial incoming high current part of the box. Everything between the 50A GFI breaker in my panel and the smaller breakers inside my control panel is rated for 50A or more.

From that central power distribution block, my hot lines go immediately to smaller breakers to limit the current into the other parts of the design. Once I had those breakers in there, I was able to use the smaller terminal strips to distribute power to all of my 120V items (pumps, switches, PID, PWM).

50A GFI breaker -> 50A receptacle -> 50A plug -> 65A power cable -> 50A power distribution -> smaller breakers -> terminal strips

Walker, could you provide links to the items in bold? My next step is power source work. I've found a few things that might work on Home Depot's website (I don't have a HD, Lowe's, or Menard's near me), but I'm open to other ideas. Most of what I've found is rated for 30A, not 50.

Thanks!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

From newark.com You would need 2 of these for the 2 - 240V lines. The neutral and ground terminal strips will be carrying a max of 15 amps so a much smaller strip can be used for them.

HTH

I ended up going with four of these. It might be slight overkill, but I know it'll work.

Picture:

Also, my PIDs, SSRDs, selector switches, RTD sensors, and contactors came in! Enclosure, DIN rail, and heat sinks are on the way.

TB

 

[P-J]

IOne question though: in your diagram, there is only one line going to the double 15A breakers, but two coming out. Is that a mistake? How would I wire it with the breakers I've got (above)? Could show that on the diagram? I have an idea, but want to make sure.

Thanks P-J!

You are welcome. I'm working on the updated diagram as I (well when I get done) type.

Congrats on receiving the parts. That's great. I like the terminal strips. You won't regret it.

 

[Walker]

Don't forget to look for power cables and plugs receptacles!

60A stuff can be expensive, so you might need to shop around for a while to find the stuff.

 

[P-J]

Tiber_Brew,

Ok... It took a little while with the bits and pieces - but - Here is latest diagram. It has the breakers that you ordered and I've also placed pix of your switched. I've changes some of the foot notes as well.



As usual - Click on the image for a full scale drawing.
The full sacle image is set up for printing on a 11" X 17" sheet of paper.

I sure hope this helps you. Please let me know your thoughts.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Don't forget to look for power cables and plugs receptacles!

60A stuff can be expensive, so you might need to shop around for a while to find the stuff.

Tell me about it. At first look, it appears that I was going to have to spend $100/receptacle! I found some cheaper ones on eBay, but they were still around $80 with shipping. It's tough to find 50 or 60 amp stuff, as they all seem to be 30 amp for dryers. Suggestions?

What did you get, Walker? Do you have links? I live 100 miles away from the nearest Lowe's/Menards, and 250 miles from the nearest Home Depot. I would make the drive to Lowe's if I knew they had what I needed.

Thanks!

 

[Walker]

Tell me about it. At first look, it appears that I was going to have to spend $100/receptacle! I found some cheaper ones on eBay, but they were still around $80 with shipping. It's tough to find 50 or 60 amp stuff, as they all seem to be 30 amp for dryers. Suggestions?

What did you get, Walker? Do you have links? I live 100 miles away from the nearest Lowe's/Menards, and 250 miles from the nearest Home Depot. I would make the drive to Lowe's if I knew they had what I needed.

Thanks!

50A is easy to find. That's what electric stoves plug into. Shouldn't cost any more than 30A stuff either.

I use "NEMA 14-50" plugs and receptacles, bought them at Home Depot (or Lowe's... I can't remember).


edit: fyi, 4-wire dryer plugs and receptacles are "NEMA 14-30". the "14" is the style of plug and the "30" is the amp rating.

Nema 14-30 and 14-50 look similar. The difference is that the 30A one has one of the prongs on the plug shaped like an "L" while the 50A is shaped like an "l". This is done to prevent you from plugging the wrong thing in.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Tiber_Brew,

Ok... It took a little while with the bits and pieces - but - Here is latest diagram. It has the breakers that you ordered and I've also placed pix of your switched. I've changes some of the foot notes as well.



As usual - Click on the image for a full scale drawing.
The full sacle image is set up for printing on a 11" X 17" sheet of paper.

I sure hope this helps you. Please let me know your thoughts.

That looks great, P-J. Nice work!

I do have one question about those switches, though. I looked at the datasheet for them and I'm still a little unclear about how to wire them with the indicator. The LED bulb takes the full 120V, so would I just split a line into the X1 and a neutral to the X2?

I tried showing this on your diagram (with my mad MS Paint skills). Take a look at switches 1 & 2. Does that look correct to you?

Here are my MS Paint skills again. The blue is hot, yellow is neutral.

Thanks again. I appreciate all the great help I'm getting here.

TB

 

[Tiber_Brew]

50A is easy to find. That's what electric stoves plug into. Shouldn't cost any more than 30A stuff either.

I use "NEMA 14-50" plugs and receptacles, bought them at Home Depot (or Lowe's... I can't remember).


edit: fyi, 4-wire dryer plugs and receptacles are "NEMA 14-30". the "14" is the style of plug and the "30" is the amp rating.

Nema 14-30 and 14-50 look similar. The difference is that the 30A one has one of the prongs on the plug shaped like an "L" while the 50A is shaped like an "l". This is done to prevent you from plugging the wrong thing in.

Ah, I see. Thanks, Walker. That makes sense now. Did you use 30A receptacles and plugs for your elements and 50A for the main power from service?

TibermakesatriptoLowesBrew

 

[Walker]

Did you use 30A receptacles and plugs for your elements and 50A for the main power from service?

Yup. Exactly.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Update: more parts are in now.

Got the enclosure and the heat sinks. Shown here accompanied by a glass of Move Overon. (Recipe here.)

A little TLC, some sanding, priming, painting and vinyl graphics, and this will turn out to be at the very least good enough for who it's for.

TB

 

[Gabrew]

Looks great! Can't wait to see how it turns out...I'm definately stealing the wiring diagram

Please keep us updated on the build.

Anyway of providing a detailed list of all the parts and where they have been ordered?

Thanks for the help!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Looks great! Can't wait to see how it turns out...I'm definately stealing the wiring diagram

Please keep us updated on the build.

Anyway of providing a detailed list of all the parts and where they have been ordered?

Thanks for the help!

Absolutely! I plan on posting an updated parts list with costs along with pictures of my progress.

I owe a great deal of my progress to the HBT community, so I'll give back what I can.

TiberpayitforwardBrew

 

[Gabrew]

Great!

I was planning on adding a digital thermometer for monitoring the mash in the MLT alongside the control panel...how are you going about your MLT temp?

 

[P-J]

Tiber_Brew,

Ok... I have added the wiring for the switch lighting. I also changed the annotation for the mains power to be a 50 amp mains GFCI breaker. The system power consumption is close but I really believe it will be A-Ok with that. Plus you will have a much easier time finding the cord and outlet for that. (Range outlet and cord - It MUST be a 4 wire cord.) If this gives you any problem - just change one of the elements to a 4500 W element and you will be just fine. I've changes some of the foot notes as well.



I've updated the drawings under the same name so you need to refresh your browser when you read this message and also when you click on the link for the large image. My last post will show the same image when refreshed as well.

As usual - Click on the image for a full scale drawing.
The full sacle image is set up for printing on a 11" X 17" sheet of paper.

I hope this helps you and I really wish we could have talked some of this out.

Please let me know if this is ok now.

Edit: If you looked at the pix within the 1/2 hour - please refresh the image. I screwed up on one of the image placements.
I know. I'm fastidious.
It's fixed now.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Great!

I was planning on adding a digital thermometer for monitoring the mash in the MLT alongside the control panel...how are you going about your MLT temp?

Since I single infusion mash in a 10 gal cooler, I've got a digital oven thermometer on a 3' cord that I use. I put the probe in the mash and set the display unit on top of the tun. Low-tech, but works like a charm. No thermowells sticking out on the inside to bump with my mash paddle, and no drilling holes in the cooler. Who knows, I may upgrade to something higher tech later.

I frequently do decoction mashing for my lagers, but the digital thermometer works well for that, too.

TB

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Tiber_Brew,

Ok... I have added the wiring for the switch lighting. I also changed the annotation for the mains power to be a 50 amp mains GFCI breaker. The system power consumption is close but I really believe it will be A-Ok with that. Plus you will have a much easier time finding the cord and outlet for that. (Range outlet and cord - It MUST be a 4 wire cord.) If this gives you any problem - just change one of the elements to a 4500 W element and you will be just fine. I've changes some of the foot notes as well.

That looks great, P-J! That's what I had in mind about wiring the switches, but I'm glad to see that's the way you'd do it as well. Thanks a ton for drawing this again.

I hope this helps you and I really wish we could have talked some of this out.

I thought that's what we were doing?

I know it'd be a lot easier in person. Wish we could work it out face to face with a sketch pad or something. I think you've done a fantastic job though, and appreciate what you're doing for me!

Please let me know if this is ok now.

Edit: If you looked at the pix within the 1/2 hour - please refresh the image. I screwed up on one of the image placements.
I know. I'm fastidious.
It's fixed now.

Again, looks great! I'm going to use this one.

I think I'm going use single dedicated outlets for each of the pumps. Such as this one:

Thanks!
TB