Electric Brew Panel Troubleshooting

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Wogman75

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Hello Fellow Electric Brewers I am look for some help troubleshooting my control panel. I built a 30a Single Element BIAB Electric Brew Panel myself a few years ago from a kit I got on eBrewSupply http://guide.ebrew.supply/ using an Auber PID. It is a 16 Gallon Bayou Classic pot with a 5500 Cameco SS Ripple Element installed. I have a GFCI 30A SPA panel that runs off my fuse box and then my panel is connected to that. I used this panel a hand full of times without any issues. The last time I used it which maybe more than a year ago now. I experienced and issue where in the middle of brew day when trying to boil my wort I kept tripping the breaker in my panel on the 240V circuit. I was able to wait a few minutes while I inspected and and then it would comeback on for a while and then trip again. Happened maybe 4 times. So I have not brewed with it again. I went over the wiring making sure that I had good connections everywhere and wanted to run a test. I filled with about 8 gallons of water and fired it up and everything seem to be working It took about 45 minutes to reach a temperature of ~180 and the breaker tripped once again. I not sure where to begin troubleshooting this. My suspicion is its happening when the SSR is trying to throttle the current to the element something is happening which trips the breaker or heat build up through running it for 45 minutes is causing breaker to trip. Anyone experience something similar or have experience troubleshooting something like this can lend advice on where to start?
 

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Which breaker is tripping? Your post makes it sound like the main service (building breaker box) is the one tripping. Is this correct?

What is the amp rating of the breaker that is tripping?

Do you have a digital voltmeter?

Is there any discoloration of wire insulation near connections, or terminal blocks discolored or melted?

Brew on :mug:
 
I believe its 25AMP marked C25, its the dual pole one on the Left of the picture that controls the 240V circuit. I have inspected and don't see any discolored or burnt wires. I checked for loose wire and combined some wires in a connector and then into contactor because I thought I maybe I wasn't getting a good connection? Could it be its a bad breaker? Like I said used this setup a hand full of time with no issues. Never had the spa panel trip or the breaker in the service panel trip. I see they sell the following part on their site ABB MCB ST200M 2P C 32a UL1077 but I don't want to put a higher Amperage breaker in if its not need.
 
Your element will draw about 23A at full power, so a 25A breaker should be sufficient. It's possible that the breaker is tripping at lower than rated amps (i.e. bad.) You could replace with a 32A breaker, as long as the wires are 10AWG or heavier. You can get a 2 pole 32A, DIN rail, UL rated breaker much cheaper here.

It looks like that breaker only carries the element current in your control box. Is this correct? The reason I asked about a volt/ohm meter, is that it is possible that your element is bad, and thus drawing too much current, causing the breaker to trip. Measureing the resistance between all three pairs of prongs on the plug can tell you if the element is the problem. The resistance between the two hot prongs should be ~10.47 ohms, and the resistance between either of the hot prongs and the ground prong should be infinite (on the highest resistance range of the meter.) If any of these resistances are less than this, then the problem is either in the element, the cord, or the plug.

Brew on :mug:
 
A couple thoughts. First is that 45 minutes to reach 180F on 8 gallons is really slow even if the water started at 50F. It should be more like 25-30 minutes. I would look at your connections all along the element circuit and look for corrosion, gaps, loose screws. 5500 watt elements will pull just under 24 amps so it's already pretty close to the 25amp breaker limit.
 
A couple thoughts. First is that 45 minutes to reach 180F on 8 gallons is really slow even if the water started at 50F. It should be more like 25-30 minutes. I would look at your connections all along the element circuit and look for corrosion, gaps, loose screws. 5500 watt elements will pull just under 24 amps so it's already pretty close to the 25amp breaker limit.
Good point on the heat-up time. It's sounds like the element is not getting the voltage/current it should be.

@Wogman75 , where do the wires spliced into the element hot wires between the element enable contactor and the element outlet go?

Brew on :mug:
 
Your element will draw about 23A at full power, so a 25A breaker should be sufficient. It's possible that the breaker is tripping at lower than rated amps (i.e. bad.) You could replace with a 32A breaker, as long as the wires are 10AWG or heavier. You can get a 2 pole 32A, DIN rail, UL rated breaker much cheaper here.

It looks like that breaker only carries the element current in your control box. Is this correct? The reason I asked about a volt/ohm meter, is that it is possible that your element is bad, and thus drawing too much current, causing the breaker to trip. Measureing the resistance between all three pairs of prongs on the plug can tell you if the element is the problem. The resistance between the two hot prongs should be ~10.47 ohms, and the resistance between either of the hot prongs and the ground prong should be infinite (on the highest resistance range of the meter.) If any of these resistances are less than this, then the problem is either in the element, the cord, or the plug.

Brew on :mug:
I do have a volt/ohm meter, when I check the ohms of the element do I have to have the feed wires disconnected to get a valid result? I am pretty sure you're right that that breaker only caries the load of the element and I believe all my heavy wires are 10 gauge, So I will check out the element and if it looks ok, see about replacing the breaker else replacing the element it not close to spec. Thanks for all the help guys.
 
I do have a volt/ohm meter, when I check the ohms of the element do I have to have the feed wires disconnected to get a valid result? I am pretty sure you're right that that breaker only caries the load of the element and I believe all my heavy wires are 10 gauge, So I will check out the element and if it looks ok, see about replacing the breaker else replacing the element it not close to spec. Thanks for all the help guys.
Just unplug the element cable from the outlet in the control panel. Then measure at the blades on the element cable plug. This will check the plug, cord, and element all at once. If an anomaly is found, then we can start to isolate to one of those three.

Brew on :mug:
 
Don't read too much into the time it took to heat it could have been less it was just a guestimate on my part. I looked at the element connections and don't see any corrosion or anything. I got my volt/ohm meter out but I don't trust it. It an old Radio Shack and no matter what I try and touch the probes to on the ohm setting it reads 0.

The two wires that are inline with the contactor feed the White 240V Led Lamp on the front panel that indicates power to the element and flashes as the element is Pulse width modulated as the PID is trying to zero in on set temp.
 
Don't read too much into the time it took to heat it could have been less it was just a guestimate on my part. I looked at the element connections and don't see any corrosion or anything. I got my volt/ohm meter out but I don't trust it. It an old Radio Shack and no matter what I try and touch the probes to on the ohm setting it reads 0.

The two wires that are inline with the contactor feed the White 240V Led Lamp on the front panel that indicates power to the element and flashes as the element is Pulse width modulated as the PID is trying to zero in on set temp.
Yeah, I wouldn't trust that meter. New digital meters are quite affordable, and are a necessity if you are working with DIY electrical equipment.

Understand about the spliced wires. When I tried to follow them in the pic, they looked like they went somewhere odd.

Brew on :mug:
 
Hello Fellow Electric Brewers I am look for some help troubleshooting my control panel. I built a 30a Single Element BIAB Electric Brew Panel myself a few years ago from a kit I got on eBrewSupply http://guide.ebrew.supply/ using an Auber PID. It is a 16 Gallon Bayou Classic pot with a 5500 Cameco SS Ripple Element installed. I have a GFCI 30A SPA panel that runs off my fuse box and then my panel is connected to that. I used this panel a hand full of times without any issues. The last time I used it which maybe more than a year ago now. I experienced and issue where in the middle of brew day when trying to boil my wort I kept tripping the breaker in my panel on the 240V circuit. I was able to wait a few minutes while I inspected and and then it would comeback on for a while and then trip again. Happened maybe 4 times. So I have not brewed with it again. I went over the wiring making sure that I had good connections everywhere and wanted to run a test. I filled with about 8 gallons of water and fired it up and everything seem to be working It took about 45 minutes to reach a temperature of ~180 and the breaker tripped once again. I not sure where to begin troubleshooting this. My suspicion is its happening when the SSR is trying to throttle the current to the element something is happening which trips the breaker or heat build up through running it for 45 minutes is causing breaker to trip. Anyone experience something similar or have experience troubleshooting something like this can lend advice on where to start?
I’ve done a fair amount of electrical trouble shooting. I would start by finding out how much you are actually drawing. If you have access to an “Amp-probe” you are golden. Measure what you are actually drawing. If it’s drawing more than the breaker rating, it’s the circuit, either oversized for the breaker or you either have a problem somewhere downstream from the breaker. If you are measuring less than the rating it’s likely the breaker. They do go bad. Especially if tripped often. Also it’s a GFI. Could it be tripping from ground fault? As best I recall it only takes about 10 mA to trip most GFI’s. Does your GFI indicate “fault tripping differently than ”over current”? Measuring what you are actually drawing is reasonable place to start.
 
I’ve done a fair amount of electrical trouble shooting. I would start by finding out how much you are actually drawing. If you have access to an “Amp-probe” you are golden. Measure what you are actually drawing. If it’s drawing more than the breaker rating, it’s the circuit, either oversized for the breaker or you either have a problem somewhere downstream from the breaker. If you are measuring less than the rating it’s likely the breaker. They do go bad. Especially if tripped often. Also it’s a GFI. Could it be tripping from ground fault? As best I recall it only takes about 10 mA to trip most GFI’s. Does your GFI indicate “fault tripping differently than ”over current”? Measuring what you are actually drawing is reasonable place to start.
OP has already said that it is a non-GFCI breaker in the control panel that is tripping.

Brew on :mug:
 
I believe the OP stated that “I have a GFCI 30A SPA panel that runs off my fuse box and then my panel is connected to that.” I did NOT see that he said “non-GFI” if I missed something where he did state that, my apologies. As best I recall SPA panels are GFI protected. Of course it’s been years since I worked with that stuff professionally and NEC changes.
 
I believe the OP stated that “I have a GFCI 30A SPA panel that runs off my fuse box and then my panel is connected to that.” I did NOT see that he said “non-GFI” if I missed something where he did state that, my apologies. As best I recall SPA panels are GFI protected. Of course it’s been years since I worked with that stuff professionally and NEC changes.
Which breaker is tripping? Your post makes it sound like the main service (building breaker box) is the one tripping. Is this correct?

I believe its 25AMP marked C25, its the dual pole one on the Left of the picture that controls the 240V circuit.
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Brew on :mug:
 
Yes I have a spa panel that is GFI protected that feeds the Brew Control panel, but it has never tripped nor has the service panel. The only breaker to trip is the non GFI in the Brew Control panel that Doug293cz has correctly noted. Thanks Doug.
 
Likely a bad breaker. The one you indicated is not a GFCI breaker and DIN mounted breakers are not expensive and can be replaced for about ~$13 from Amazon. That will likely fix it. You can also buy a shunt resistor and an inexpensive VOM for < $10 and tell how much your system is drawing if you do not have access to an Amp-Probe.

I am not a fan of ”shot-gunning” system problems but if replacing the breaker does not fix it there are inexpensive ways of trouble-shooting.
 
if you do not have access to an Amp-Probe.
youre correct I do not have access to an amp probe sufficient to read 25A or more , and my concern is that since it takes almost 30minutes or more to happen troubleshooting a live system for this long to try and register when it trips could be difficult.

Would most recommend going with the 32A breaker as suggested to have a little bit more headroom since the 25A is so close to the theoretical amperage that I should be pulling?
 
The heating time you quoted suggests the element is pulling less than its rated current, or at least some of the current is being drawn elsewhere. Do you smell anything resembling an electrical fire inside the box? Does the element have any small areas of darkened surface, about the size of a dime?

Tug on all the larger wires to see if any pop out of their terminations (checking for loose connections).

Make sure all the screws are tight.
 
The heating time you quoted suggests the element is pulling less than its rated current, or at least some of the current is being drawn elsewhere. Do you smell anything resembling an electrical fire inside the box? Does the element have any small areas of darkened surface, about the size of a dime?

Tug on all the larger wires to see if any pop out of their terminations (checking for loose connections).

Make sure all the screws are tight.
No smell, no discolored, no loose connections that I can see. When heating water its full on for most of the time it seem to trip right when it goes to start to throttle, will an element pull more amps when turned off/on the off like an electric motor? As indicated I am very close on the amp pulling and the breaker, not sure how much tolerance the breakers have. Will it pull 1 or 2 amps more which could put me over the 25a limit?
 
At risk of redundancy or suggesting a fool's errand, did you take the shell off your element plug (the L6-30P) and check the wires there?
(Sorry.. just trying to mentally walk through your panel)
 
At risk of redundancy or suggesting a fool's errand, did you take the shell off your element plug (the L6-30P) and check the wires there?
(Sorry.. just trying to mentally walk through your panel)

Yes, everything look like day one, tight and sealed in clear silicone.

Oh sorry thought you were referring to the element box, I will check the plug.
 
Ok, I checked the element cord plug and it was fine, but then I discovered that the black wire on left out of 240V breaker seemed a little loose. I loosed and re-tighten all of inputs and output and going to re-test probably tonight.

I want to make sure they are not loosening somehow trying to get to 180 degrees cause if they are I will probably replace the breaker. I checked tightness of everything before last test, as that was the point. I am also going to register water temp and note how long it take to trip if it repeats. And if all goes well let it boil for 60 minutes.
 
Guys, It's fixed, I took about 30 minutes to go from 64 to 200 degrees. I boiled 8gal for 60 minutes and it never tripped. I feel embarrassed I should have been able to figure this out on my own, but many thanks to those of you that took the time to help a fellow hobbyist in need. The best part is I didn't have to spend any money to fix it. How often does that happen. I guess I should find a grain kit to add to my Christmas list.

Cheers.
 

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youre correct I do not have access to an amp probe sufficient to read 25A or more , and my concern is that since it takes almost 30minutes or more to happen troubleshooting a live system for this long to try and register when it trips could be difficult.

Would most recommend going with the 32A breaker as suggested to have a little bit more headroom since the 25A is so close to the theoretical amperage that I should be pulling?
As long as the wiring supports it. The breaker is sized to protect the wiring. #10 THHN has a listed ampacity of 40 Amps I believe. So, if all the wiring in the heater circuit is #10 or larger with THHN insulation or equivalent you should be good.

Heating elements do not pull more current when they are hot. They are designed to deliver rated kilowatts at rated voltage only when hot. If they pulled more when hot you would have thermal run-away.

That is why I suggested a shunt resistor and an inexpensive VOM. An old cliche in “controls work” is “if you can’t measure it, you can’t control it ”. If you know how much you are drawing initially you will know how much headroom you have with your current breaker unless there is an additional load on the breaker. I can’t think of any reason there would be anything other than the heating element on that circuit. But then again, I continue to be surprised. It looks like you have a Solid State Relay and (in my experience) they have been bulletproof when correctly sized. They CAN fail “closed”. Is there more than one SSR?
 
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