Electric 1.5 BBL Upgrade

[geniz]

If i'm missing something, please let me know. BTW Cruelkix, I didn't mean to hijack the your thread. You really are helping me figure this out

 

[cruelkix]

If i'm missing something, please let me know. BTW Cruelkix, I didn't mean to hijack the your thread. You really are helping me figure this out

No worries, I think it will help lots of people in the future.

 

[foodplusbeer]

Cruelkix - I was just looking at your costs and was wondering if you had considered the items below. I know you had the Miscellaneous 500 so maybe its covered there...

What will you serve your beer in? If glass you will need to clean them, if plastic you will need to purchase cups. Factor in that glassware will be broken and maybe stolen.

Are you the only employee? What if you're unable to work at times? Will you have a bartender? A janitor to clean the facilities? Floors, windows, wipe tables, clean bathrooms? What happens when someone spills?

Are you going to have TVs? Do you need to pay cable/satellite service?

Will you do growler fills? Those will need to be billed at a separate rate.

How often do you think you'll lose a batch?

If you change the price of your beer will your demand/volume change? Will you have a happy hour or any other promotions?

 

[PleasantValleyHops]

The only thing on that spread sheet i can prob see that might be an issue is the fact is ur still going to be brewing the beer so if u went from a 20 keg month to a 8 keg month. Then cost of supplies and such would still be there. But hey id think about the paycut to do it if i could.

 

[Jaybird]

Kinda

All you guys that started with 55 gallon drum systems or the 1.5 BBl systems.

If you did it all over again would you go bigger if you could have? Do you wish you held off, stacked a few more bucks away and went for the 2 or 3 BBL?

As I read this thread and get caught up in it. I wonder if just stepping up to that next level would be a better option. If it was feasible....Just pondering.....

Cheers
Jay

 

[Eternalodyssey]

I am not a professional brewer. I am not an expert by any means. However, I am close friends with and converse with several professional brewers and every one of them have imparted the advice to me that you want to start on at least a 3-5 bbl scale for a tasting room/brewpub scale. 7/20 bbl scale for a standalone kegging/bottling facility. The reasoning behind these specific numbers is that if your business catches on, you will have time enough to plan your next expansion as your business grows. If your business does not catch on, you are not invested so far in over your head you will not be selling blood & semen until your 70th birthday to pay off your negative loans. Again, this isn't my advice, just what has been passed onto me.

 

[wiescins]

awesome

 

[cruelkix]

Kinda

All you guys that started with 55 gallon drum systems or the 1.5 BBl systems.

If you did it all over again would you go bigger if you could have? Do you wish you held off, stacked a few more bucks away and went for the 2 or 3 BBL?

As I read this thread and get caught up in it. I wonder if just stepping up to that next level would be a better option. If it was feasible....Just pondering.....

Cheers
Jay

I'll let you know when I know haha. But my thinking is that this gets me into the business with VERY little up front cash. If you look a the number of people I will need to get into the place every night at my max capacity of 40 kegs per month, for a 1300 sq ft place, its a ton of people. Even if I open up 7 days a week. If I'm selling out of beer I will have plenty of money to upgrade to the 7 BBL system I am planning for.

Just my 2 cents..

 

[cruelkix]

Cruelkix - I was just looking at your costs and was wondering if you had considered the items below. I know you had the Miscellaneous 500 so maybe its covered there...

What will you serve your beer in? If glass you will need to clean them, if plastic you will need to purchase cups. Factor in that glassware will be broken and maybe stolen.

Yeah, there is definitely a little bit of cost associated with this, but the majority of it is in upfront costs for glassware and sinks and such, which I have capture in start up costs. Replacement of broken glass and cleaning solutions will be the continued cost and should be relatively minor, but good catch

Are you the only employee? What if you're unable to work at times? Will you have a bartender? A janitor to clean the facilities? Floors, windows, wipe tables, clean bathrooms? What happens when someone spills?

I will initially be the only employee. My first hire will be a bartender, followed VERY shortly after by a cleaning crew, then long term a head brewmaster. Anybody spills and its my problem. State law makes you have a mop sink.

Are you going to have TVs? Do you need to pay cable/satellite service?

Initially I wasn't going to start with TV's, however, the place I'm looking at right now is very close to the football stadium, so that may change very quickly. I have some money in the RENT/Utilities for internet/cable. Internet is a must have of course.

Will you do growler fills? Those will need to be billed at a separate rate.

Good call on this one. I will be filling growlers, and yes they will be at a discounted rate ( a little, but not much). I'll have to think about how to incorporate this considering I have no idea how many it will be. I could do a percentage of pint sales I suppose.

How often do you think you'll lose a batch?

This is a good question. I have been very lucky in my brewing *knocksonwood* and hopefully I will lose maybe 1 or 2 a year, however, considering how many experimental beers I am making there is a good chance some will be straight up horrible and I'll have to dump it. Not sure on this one.Another good catch.

If you change the price of your beer will your demand/volume change? Will you have a happy hour or any other promotions?

No happy hour to start. Most people coming into a small micro brewery are not there for cheap beer. I don't think $4 vs $5 vs $6 will make to much of a difference. Dry Dock is packed with people all day everyday and a lot of there pints are like $6-$8 for high ABV stuff/special stuff.

Answers in blue above. Great suggestions to think about. Thanks!

 

[foodplusbeer]

It seems to me that your input costs are quickly going to change. I would build those into your cost assumptions to see where you will ultimately end up. Operating as a one man show (Brewing, Serving, Cleaning, Ordering, Bookkeeping/other administrative tasks) is unsustainable.

I forgot to mention it before, but you may need a bookkeeper/tax accountant to help you out. Especially since alcohol is involved, you will need good records to determine your Tax Liability in case the IRS chooses to audit you. Also, although it may be minor with your limited equipment, you will be able to depreciate your brewing system, and many other things to save you tax dollars! Save your receipts!

 

[bad67z]

While working in MI. for a number of months in 2010/2011 I got to experience a start up brewery get off the ground.

They took a page or two from Sam's book "Brewing Up Business". Their model seemed very similar and they started on a Sabco system brewing three brews a day 6 days a week. Now that is dedication in my book.

In the last year and a half they have made three expansions, both in the brewery and the tasting room/bar. A coworker who lives in the area and now frequents the brewery informed me they are looking for space for a production facility.

I have a suggestion in addition to a "happy hour" or growler fills that worked well for the brewery above. A mug/glass club where the club member pays say $25-$50 for their own beer vessel. What they get in return is up to you, reduced cost of a pint, members only happy hour, invitations to members only new release party's. You get the idea. This will get you some regulars who can produce a repeating monthly revenue that helps you plan for you future investments while also providing you with a group for marketing studies.

I have seen this model produce favorable results in a number of establishments. Good luck.

 

[Jaybird]

While working in MI. for a number of months in 2010/2011 I got to experience a start up brewery get off the ground.

They took a page or two from Sam's book "Brewing Up Business". Their model seemed very similar and they started on a Sabco system brewing three brews a day 6 days a week. Now that is dedication in my book.

In the last year and a half they have made three expansions, both in the brewery and the tasting room/bar. A coworker who lives in the area and now frequents the brewery informed me they are looking for space for a production facility.

I have a suggestion in addition to a "happy hour" or growler fills that worked well for the brewery above. A mug/glass club where the club member pays say $25-$50 for their own beer vessel. What they get in return is up to you, reduced cost of a pint, members only happy hour, invitations to members only new release party's. You get the idea. This will get you some regulars who can produce a repeating monthly revenue that helps you plan for you future investments while also providing you with a group for marketing studies.

I have seen this model produce favorable results in a number of establishments. Good luck.

Funny...
I have sold 9 $100 memberships to my brewery. Yes the one that is not built yet. I know funny right! I too am building a small system 200L with 160L and 320L fermenters and bright tanks. I figure I sell memberships to get some build capital. I will stop selling memberships when I have enough capital. I am guessing 250 for the brewery and beer bar and 250 for the winery and wine bar. Thus giving me almost $50,000 (members get 2 engraved pint glasses 1 goes home with them) in build out capital and operating capital.
I have already located the brewery tanks and fermentation and am in the final stages of securing it. Small details.....

Hay I have to say its threads like this that really helps people, like all of us who have visions of grandeur. It’s great to see such a large group of people with real life input!
Thanks for taking the time (once you open we will never see you again ....Uhhh Naked City ring a bell) to give such great detail....I will be using some of it for sure.
Cheers
Jay

 

[Scottkb]

You put 100% of the hop matter into the fermenter?

I seem to recall hearing something to the 10-15% range. Its not hard in CO to evaporate quickly if need be.

I'm not sure the heating elements will be on tri clover. But they will have easy disconnects from the panel. I've only seen one person that makes a tri clover to 1" pipe thread and thats Derrin and they are $70 a piece. With 6 elements ...... no thanks. I'll probably just punch holes in teh sides of the kettles like I did on my current rig. Use the gasket and a 1" SS nut. I'd rather CIP it if I can.

For chilling I think I will need a plate chiller or a CFC. I currently no chill. So it will be a switch for me. No chill will not be possible with Plastic fermenters and 35 gallons per batch. It will take days to get down to temp. If I go Plate, hops will be an issue to resolve. CFC might be the better route.

I dont seperate the hops from the wort currently. I just try my best to keep as much as possible out of the fermenter, but I don't think that will be a big deal when I get the conicals. It will settle out and I can just dump the trub. I'll get it figured out. I was thinking of using whole leaf and a big ass hop spider? Or using pellet and dealing with it being in my fermenter like I do now. My Brewery is called "High Gravity Brewing, Inc.". Hops aren't usually a problem and I've never detected any off flavors in my big bold ales.

But its stuff like this that makes test batches a necessity. I'll have 3 months of beer I can't sell....... I'm going to have to have lots of parties.

 

[cruelkix]

You put 100% of the hop matter into the fermenter?

I wouldn't say 100%, but a good portion of it. Never had any off flavors .... I did start using a Heat exchanger for cooling, so I've stopped letting all the hop matter leave the boil kettle so as not to clog it.

 

[cruelkix]

Update for people that think this thread has died .... I hate real estate. I'm still hunting .....

 

[TravisT]

Update for people that think this thread has died .... I hate real estate. I'm still hunting .....

http://denver.craigslist.org/bfs/3047169130.html

just ran across this, if it works out do i get free beer as a finders fee???

 

[cruelkix]

http://denver.craigslist.org/bfs/3047169130.html

just ran across this, if it works out do i get free beer as a finders fee???

Dude that is pretty awesome. You should jump on that!!! I actually may have found a place last night. I was at the city getting permits for the property this morning. So far zoning is good with it .... I have a long way to go.

 

[TravisT]

Dude that is pretty awesome. You should jump on that!!! I actually may have found a place last night. I was at the city getting permits for the property this morning. So far zoning is good with it .... I have a long way to go.

aww what part of town? ps i'm way too lazy to be a pro brewer.

 

[cruelkix]

So I finally did it. I leased a building!!!

Check it out

http://www.facebook.com/HighGravityBrewing

And like me!!

I'm going to do most of my updating their now. So that's the best way to follow my progress as it includes people that are not on homebrewtalk as well.



-Craig

 

[stubbornman]

 

[barryfine]

So I finally did it. I leased a building!!!

Check it out

http://www.facebook.com/HighGravityBrewing

And like me!!

I'm going to do most of my updating their now. So that's the best way to follow my progress as it includes people that are not on homebrewtalk as well.



-Craig

Awesome!! Congrats! You are doing exactly what I fantasize about doing myself. I look forward to watching your progress moving forward.

 

[dallasdb]

Sorry if this has been asked, I didn't go through all 21 pages.

What are the car hubs used for? I couldn't really tell from the picture.

 

[cruelkix]

Sorry if this has been asked, I didn't go through all 21 pages.

What are the car hubs used for? I couldn't really tell from the picture.

The car hubs let me dump the grains out of the mash tun. A tippy dumpy!

 

[cruelkix]

Awesome!! Congrats! You are doing exactly what I fantasize about doing myself. I look forward to watching your progress moving forward.

Thanks man. I fantasized for years as well!

 

[TheCatman]

Awesome, dude! Can't wait for December

 

[cruelkix]

Awesome, dude! Can't wait for December

Thanks Catman!

 

[limulus]

Very nice. I read the entire thread and I'll be in Denver later in Sept. I may just go on a little beer hunter expedition.

I was going to do this back in the mid 1990s and even had a system laid out by Specific Mechanical. But I'm in a very hostile beer state...more so back then than now. Several brewers came and went in those days including Dogwood, which was a very good international award winning brewer. I was about to lay out some serious cash and would have probably joined the ranks of the failures. Someday, the good ol boys will remove the large distributors hands from their pockets and allow small brewers to self distribute here.

Things have actually changed quite a bit here since the 90s. About 10yrs ago, high gravity beer became available. We can ship wine and I think beer into GA. You can finally go to your local Kroger on a Sunday and buy a 6-pack now...at least in and around Atlanta. Before, you had to go to a bar or restaurant if you wanted a pint on Sunday...and then drive home. Real smart, huh.

I googled your brewery name and didn't find a website, but I did find several mentions of it (I'm not a Facebooker). CO is a VERY beer friendly state and this list of breweries in development confirms that!
http://www.fermentedlychallenged.com/2011/09/list-of-colorado-breweries-in.html
But, I don't think any state is easier than CA. The HBHoss thread proves that. He didn't have to go through any of the building searches and lease negotiations. He just built it in his back yard:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/nanobrewery-build-137400/

 

[rlhvegas]

Congrats on your progress! I see on Facebook that you have a countdown to getting your TTB, what's the process in CO for your state license and dealing with the health department?

 

[cruelkix]

Congrats on your progress! I see on Facebook that you have a countdown to getting your TTB, what's the process in CO for your state license and dealing with the health department?

Sorry, I haven't looked at this thread in a while. I didn't see this post.

The state and city both have their own set of crap to take care of.

The State requires you get a manufacturing license and get all set up taxes wise. This includes getting a state sales tax number and a manufacturing license. The license is a one time fee and application costing $1375 ... ouch.

The city is where things get nuts and are all amazingly dependent on what your zoning is. I have to submit all sorts of drawings and stuff to the city for them to approve. The city is the largest bottle neck and can pretty much ruin me if things don't go smoothly with them.

 

[shelly_belly]

So I finally did it. I leased a building!!!

Check it out

http://www.facebook.com/HighGravityBrewing

And like me!!

I'm going to do most of my updating their now. So that's the best way to follow my progress as it includes people that are not on homebrewtalk as well.



-Craig

Any way to make your facebook page available to non-facebook members?
Thanks.