Electric 1.5 BBL Upgrade

[TravisT]

I bet you will be doing a lot of yeast harvesting and repitching...what are you going to do with 68gl of beer?

 

[bigbeergeek]

The big boys often brew one or two smaller batches of beer, stepping them up like a starter to generate sufficient slurry to harvest and pitch into their subsequent rotation. Next time you're starting with a fresh pitch that might be the way to go. Making a 5 gallon "starter" that you throw away doesn't make sense at the scale on which you're operating... Congrats (once again) and good luck!

 

[Boar Beer]

A low pitch also gives some unwanted critters a chance to munch around and contaminate your brew. I am sure that putting in 10 or 12 packets of yeast just seems wrong.
Buy your yeast by the pound if your not already.
I am not a fan of making a huge starter just to save a few bucks on yeast. (at least at first). Your job is to make consistent brews batch to batch and the last thing you want is a variable like Yeast starter size to influence your brew. You are spending enough time and money don't be cheap. Buy good yeast and pitch it in a consistent manner.
When you do have a batch go bad (and you will) you would hate to find out it was from bad yeast.

 

[geniz]

Subscribed. Awesome thread!

 

[cruelkix]

Some updates:

Things fell through on the property I was looking at, so I was on the hunt for a new place for a while. The land lord was not willing to put any money towards the renovation of the building. The quote I received from the GC was $75,000 to take the place from nothing to fully operational. $38,000 of that was HVAC, Electrical, and Plumbing. The rest was stuff I could have done myself so we were going to negotiate on which parts I wanted him to do. Example, he had $3.5k to build the bar. No thanks, I can handle that.

I asked the landlord to cover the $38k as it was building improvements under the assumption that he would not do it, but was hoping he would offer to help with at least $10k. He offered me nothing and wasn't willing to budge. We parted ways. Kind of a bummer considering how much time I had spent on it.

On the flip side, I found another place I'm interested in. I'm optimistic, but after the first place I learned a ton of stuff and don't want to get too excited too early. I'll keep you posted.

2nd update. My conical got stuck with 68 gallons of double IPA in it!!! I order some parts and was able to blow some CO2 up it the wrong way at like 5 PSI and got it unstuck. I dont have enough kegs for 68 gallons of beer!! 2 kegs are currently fermenting beer. I have one empty half barrel and a bunch of cornies, but I'm not in the mood to fill 9+ cornies haha (I only have 12 anyway). I filled up 1 corny and dry hopped it. I'll figure out what to do with the rest later. I harvested a full growler of yeast from it though which was fun!

Beer was a double IPA.

O.G. = 1.078
F.G. = 1.010
ABV = 8.9%
IBUs = 85.5 + dry hop

Pulled a sample and it turned out..... just like it always does! Which is fantastic considering I scaled up from 12 gallons to 68.

2 full kegs are being donated to a sports league in Denver. The other 2+ will be carbed up and put on tap at the home bar. I'll let you all know when its ready and we will get the tasting party going.

Phew, long update....

 

[TravisT]

I'll figure out what to do with the rest later.

(raises hand) while looking at his empty 1/2 barrel sankie keg.


cant wait for the tasting party.

 

[audger]

I'm not to sure where I'll be getting so many drums, but Bubba's Barrels have decent prices

to all of those people brewing in used stainless barrels commercially (not just private home brew)- how are you getting around the fact that reconditioned/used barrels are NOT FDA approved for food use?

is there a recertification process of some sort? or do inspectors just not check for this? or...?

i ask because my friends have been talking about starting a nano, and i was looking at using these barrels up until i noticed they arent approved for food use. CT state health department confirmed that used barrels are no good to brew in (commercially).

 

[geniz]

to all of those people brewing in used stainless barrels commercially (not just private home brew)- how are you getting around the fact that reconditioned/used barrels are NOT FDA approved for food use?

is there a recertification process of some sort? or do inspectors just not check for this? or...?

i ask because my friends have been talking about starting a nano, and i was looking at using these barrels up until i noticed they arent approved for food use. CT state health department confirmed that used barrels are no good to brew in (commercially).

Good question. I am starting to buy for my nano and am deciding between bubba barrels and blickman 55 gallons. I don't want to be stuck
with barrels I can't use

 

[TheBreweryUnderground]

I wonder how they check that they're not refurbed? You can also get them new for ~$400 from the Cary company if you're buying more than just a few. Bull**** that you can't use refurbed ones though.

 

[GrantH]

I just wanted to say that I think what you are doing is absolutely amazing/incredible/inspiring.

 

[EarthBound]

I just wanted to say that I think what you are doing is absolutely amazing/incredible/inspiring.

Agreed!

 

[born3z]

to all of those people brewing in used stainless barrels commercially (not just private home brew)- how are you getting around the fact that reconditioned/used barrels are NOT FDA approved for food use?

is there a recertification process of some sort? or do inspectors just not check for this? or...?

i ask because my friends have been talking about starting a nano, and i was looking at using these barrels up until i noticed they arent approved for food use. CT state health department confirmed that used barrels are no good to brew in (commercially).

I'm interested in this too as I'm looking to start collecting equipment for a nano.

 

[Zoid]

to all of those people brewing in used stainless barrels commercially (not just private home brew)- how are you getting around the fact that reconditioned/used barrels are NOT FDA approved for food use?

is there a recertification process of some sort? or do inspectors just not check for this? or...?

i ask because my friends have been talking about starting a nano, and i was looking at using these barrels up until i noticed they arent approved for food use. CT state health department confirmed that used barrels are no good to brew in (commercially).

The answer is ..... it depends. It gets complicated.

Somebody called BS that you can't use refurbished kegs. OK, in theory you can, BUT you have to jump through hoops to do it legally. Try all you want, you can't easily call BS on an FDA or state health inspector, even if he is technically WRONG. They usually win, I KNOW from experience.

The BIG concern with reman/refurb drums is what was in them previously.

FDA Food Sanitation Rule (PDF here) states:
7-203.11 Poisonous or Toxic Material Containers.*
A container previously used to store poisonous or toxic materials may not be used to store, transport, or dispense food.

How do you know what was stored in these refurb. containers in a former life? Maybe a drum contained a carcinogenic chemical, or a beer keg was used as a gas tank on a dune buggy!!This is just one reason why the refurb/recond companies make the disclaimer that they are not FDA approved. If they could prove content documentation, then the refurb company needs to follow an ANSI certification program:

4-205.10 Food Equipment, Certification and Classification.
Food equipment that is certified or classified for sanitation by an American National Standards Institute (ANSI)-accredited
certification program will be deemed to comply with Parts 4-1 and 4-2 of this chapter.

A couple of other sections specifically pertinent to brewing:

This is why tri-clamp fittings are used in commercial operations:
4-202.13 "V" Threads, Use Limitation.
Except for hot oil cooking or filtering equipment, "V" type threads may not be used on food-contact surfaces.

Copper:
4-101.14 Copper, Use Limitation.*
(A) Except as specified in ¶ (B) of this section, copper and copper alloys such as brass may not be used in contact with a food
that has a pH below 6 such as vinegar, fruit juice, or wine or for a fitting or tubing installed between a backflow prevention
device and a carbonator.
(B) Copper and copper alloys may be used in contact with beer brewing ingredients that have a pH below 6 in the
prefermentation and fermentation steps of a beer brewing operation such as a brewpub or microbrewery.


Can you work around all of this to use refurb stuff? MAYBE - it depends on:
1) Your skill in navigating the applicable codes
2) Your credibility with an FDA inspector (i.e. your industry experience, you know what you are talking about)
3) Your ability to write and execute a HAACP (Hazard Analysis And Critical Control Points) Plan

If you can do the above then you can file for a waiver to use unapproved material, or do ANYTHING you want to IF you can get them to sign off (Note item C below specifically). You could brew in toilets and ferment in used septic tanks if they sign off!!!:

8-103.10 Modifications and Waivers.
(A) The Department may grant a variance from requirements of this Code as follows:
(1) Where it is demonstrated to the satisfaction of the Department that strict compliance with the rule would be highly
burdensome or impractical due to special condition or cause;
(2) Where the public or private interest in the granting of the variance is found by the Department to clearly outweigh
the interest of the application of uniform rules; and
(3) Where such alternative measures are provided which in the opinion of the Department will provide adequate public
health and safety protection.
(B) Such variance authority is not conferred upon any Local Public Health Authority notwithstanding contractual authority in
administration and enforcement of the food service statutes and rules;
(C) The applicant must include all necessary information to support the variance request, which may include, but is not
limited to, required testing, challenge data and research results;

Unfortunately, different inspectors will allow different things, based on their knowledge, expertise, workload, how much they like you, and whether they got laid in the past week. It's somewhat subjective, not always cut and dry technical facts. In the end, it's usually cheaper to buy approved equipment unless you have a unique, one of a kind process.

Disclaimer - I have 20 years experience in dealing with the FDA in Dairy processing equipment and systems. For Dairy, there is a document called the Pasteurized Milk Ordinance which tries to spell out extremely detailed requirements, but still leaves room for interpretation. Brewing is not nearly as regulated as dairy, but I have never worked with the FDA in brewing. It's certainly NOT a priority for FDA to audit breweries - beer does not encourage pathogen growth the way milk does, 90% of FDA's concerns.

 

[Bubbasbarrels]

In the barrel (drum) industry there isn't anyone that I know of that rectifies drums for food use. Many people selling barrels make statements like: "304 food grade stainless" A true statement, but one I try to stay away from.

90% of the used stainless drums on the market are closed head. It's impossible to be certain that a closed head drum is clean. Open head drums are pretty easy to get clean, but they are much more rare because the companies that buy them typically use them forever. The open heads I have were made in the late 80s and early 90s.

That being said I don't think the typical inspector would know if the drums were used or not. Who is to say where that scratch came from.

 

[Zoid]

That being said I don't think the typical inspector would know if the drums were used or not. Who is to say where that scratch came from.

I completely agree. Most inspectors look at the big picture, who you are, what you know, do you appear to have your act together,and sign off without digging. But there's a small percentage (usually the ones who DON'T understand the industry, or are just plain an*l) that dig, dig, dig and nitpick until they find *something* wrong, saying "it's my JOB to find something wrong." In this case, demanding "brewing system FDA/ANSI certification" documentation.

These are the ones that will shut you down for using unapproved equipment. Only the person building and operating the system can decide if it's worth that risk....

 

[cruelkix]

Agreed!

Thanks to both you and GrantH!! I'm trying I tell ya.

Still in talks on my newest real estate effort. Nothing overly new to report... sorry!

 

[cruelkix]

I completely agree. Most inspectors look at the big picture, who you are, what you know, do you appear to have your act together,and sign off without digging. But there's a small percentage (usually the ones who DON'T understand the industry, or are just plain an*l) that dig, dig, dig and nitpick until they find *something* wrong, saying "it's my JOB to find something wrong." In this case, demanding "brewing system FDA/ANSI certification" documentation.

These are the ones that will shut you down for using unapproved equipment. Only the person building and operating the system can decide if it's worth that risk....

I'm pretty sure I've said this but if I haven't....

I'm a mechanical engineer in the food industry. I have been for about 8 years now. I 100% agree with the information that others have been bringing forward. I could technically get shut down by the FDA if they wanted to, much like every other food manufacturer in the US. I will not be in this system long ( I hope.... target is 6-9 months). There have been many others that have done the same thing in CO. I think that's all I'm going to say....

 

[geniz]

Ok I'm gonna talk about the elephant in the room. You say that you are only gonna be in this system for the short term. I'm in a similar situation. Can u make enough money at a 1.5 bbl
to get you into a bigger system? Right now I'm trying to decide if I want to go nano with the knowledge that I'll go bigger in the near future, or do I save the money on a small system, brew on my home rig and use that system to lure investors to dive all in with a 10 a 20 bbl system.

The more
I think about it, the more I'm having trouble justifying spending the money on a system that I'll outgrow in short time. Have you thought about the same?

 

[cruelkix]

Ok I'm gonna talk about the elephant in the room. You say that you are only gonna be in this system for the short term. I'm in a similar situation. Can u make enough money at a 1.5 bbl
to get you into a bigger system? Right now I'm trying to decide if I want to go nano with the knowledge that I'll go bigger in the near future, or do I save the money on a small system, brew on my home rig and use that system to lure investors to dive all in with a 10 a 20 bbl system.

The more
I think about it, the more I'm having trouble justifying spending the money on a system that I'll outgrow in short time. Have you thought about the same?

I have an excel spreadsheet that shows income and cost blah blah. You can DEFINITELY make enough money. It depends on loans you need and rent for sure, so you need to work it out for your situation, but lets just say that at half capacity (20 kegs/month) minus all my costs, I'm making close to what I started at coming out of college as a Mech E .... After income taxes.

EDIT: 8 kegs/month .. I break even. I talked to another super small guy in Denver in a horrible spot and he said he was selling 10-12 BBLs a month. JFYI.

I repeat!!! It depends on your situation. I'm a one man show, going into what is considered a VERY small commercial space and taking out very little in loans. I'm making this happen on close to nothing. Watching some of these micros open up in Denver is mind boggling. They must have spent upwards of $300k (if not a **** load more) and their loan payment makes me cringe....

I say start small and grow slowly. The beer/micro market in denver is booming, and when the ball drops (think housing market), the little guy with the kick ass P&L is gonna be the guy that survives..

Dogfish is a great example of someone that grew too fast and realized it.

Good luck man!

 

[geniz]

Good point. Great thread
I'm still too early in the game and I'm still learning.
I've made business plans and projections and ive learned that you can drive yourself crazy with the minutia

Georgia is clearly different than Colorado and I am envious of your situation.
I'm gonna continue to follow your story and learn what I can. Thx

 

[Jaybird]

This thread just kills it!!
Well done sir!!
Cheers
Jay

 

[cruelkix]

This thread just kills it!!
Well done sir!!
Cheers
Jay

Thanks Jay. Highly appreciated!

 

[cruelkix]

Geniz,

Here ya go

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ai-2Kusu6PSrdHFsZEpnXzBBVFhsenFOQTU4R2VqbVE

Anyone else, please poke holes where I missed costs. There are a lot of assumptions (i.e. $80 in ingrediant costs per keg) so take a look.

Sharing is caring

 

[geniz]

Ok thanks for this. It looks like you can make a profit with your situation.

Here is mine.

First startup costs:


Brewery Start Up Costs


Tankless Water heater 1,500.00
Installation: 1,000.00

Walk In Cooler 4,000.00
Installation: 1,000.00

Fermentation Room 1,000.00
AC Unit 500.00

Vent Hood 3,000.00
Intallation 1,000.00

Trench drains 2,000.00

Brew stand 500.00
MT 900.00
BK 900.00
Pump 200.00
Therminator 175.00
Grain Mill 400.00
Scale 200.00

Fermentor X 4 1,600.00
Brite Tank X3 800.00

CO2 system 1,000.00
O2 system 1,000.00

Kegs 5,000.00
Misc Hardware 1,000.00


Ingredients 1,000.00

Insurance 1,500.00
Licensing/Legal/Acct 2,000.00
6 mths rent 9,000.00



Total: 42,175.00

 

[geniz]

Next cost of production and profit on a per sixtel basis with GA distribution system for two base beers:

Blonde Ale 40 gallons
Total: $152.45
Cost/sixer: $19.06

Pale Ale 40 gallons
Total: $171.12
Cost/sixer: $21.39

Wholesale cost of 1/6 barrel $60.00
30% gross distributor fee: $18.00

Net to Brewery $42.00

Net Profit Pale Ale $20.61
Net Profit Blonde Ale $22.94

 

[cruelkix]

Total: 42,175.00

My start up costs WITHOUT equipment will be around $50k I think. Just to let you know.

Equipment without kegs or walk-in cooler was about $10k.

 

[cruelkix]

Next cost of production and profit on a per sixtel basis with GA distribution system for two base beers:

Blonde Ale 40 gallons
Total: $152.45
Cost/sixer: $19.06

Pale Ale 40 gallons
Total: $171.12
Cost/sixer: $21.39

Wholesale cost of 1/6 barrel $60.00
30% gross distributor fee: $18.00

Net to Brewery $42.00

Net Profit Pale Ale $20.61
Net Profit Blonde Ale $22.94

This right here is why its soooo much easier for the little guy to sell his own beer in a tasting room rather than to try to sell it to bars. If I were trying to sell kegs to customers instead of having my own tasting room.... I would NOT be going the 1.5 BBL route, that is for sure.

 

[geniz]

Lets round this profit down to $20/sixer net profit

At full capacity of 128 sixers per month, that is a gross profit of $2560/month before expenses.

Having to go thru a distributor kills all the profit compared to your business model

 

[cruelkix]

Lets round this profit down to $20/sixer net profit

At full capacity of 128 sixers per month, that is a gross profit of $2560/month before expenses.

Having to go thru a distributor kills all the profit compared to your business model

Yeah, self distribution in CO is a HUGE benefit for sure. $2560/month is still more than the average american. Can't bitch too much

 

[geniz]

BTW, my cost estimates are very conservative. I am able to get warehouse space for much less than projected, and the landlord remodels restaurants so that coolers can be had at next to nothing etc, but still its hard to justify without being able to have direct sales or self distribution.