Electrian dad says GCFI is pointless?

[mhermetz]

lol... My bad....

 

[passedpawn]

<-- appalled at how many jumped on the "f*** the safety crap" bandwagon. Turns out the wagon didn't have wheels. Nice.

 

[shortyjacobs]

<-- appalled at how many jumped on the "f*** the safety crap" bandwagon. Turns out the wagon didn't have wheels. Nice.

f*** the wheels! :rockin:

 

[Randar]

welp.... this whole debate was a waste of time.

I talked with him when I got home from work. The reason he said it's,"Unnecessary" and "pointless" is because ,"we already have one sitting in the garage"... lol. He thought I was asking whether we needed to buy one or not... not whether it was required for the setup.

yeah my dad, the mad scientist, tends to think he explains things fully in his head but then doesn't actually mention it. He reminds me of that scientist from Fringe...kind of look alike too.

when I explained the mix up, he did state the likely hood of something going wrong was very unlikely. He then explained the house fire he inspected 5 years ago was unexpected but try explaining that to the parents that lost 2 kids.

so yeah... In GOOD news! I came home to my Blingmann sitting in the living room! a whole 2 weeks early!! Go homebrew-supplies.com!

Really hoping I have this ready for my next brew this weekend! So pumped.

LOL! Awesome. Your dad is a wiser man than you initially made him out to be! Give the old man some credit, would ya!

 

[mhermetz]

hummm jsut thought of another problem...

My Immersion chiller won't be sanitized by sticking it in the boil with 15min left now. It would most likely touch the element....I'm assuming this is REALLY bad.

Soaking it in starsan before I turn off the element is okay thought right? Starsan isn't bad for copper?

 

[passedpawn]

I don't see a problem with setting your IC on the element.

 

[Randar]

You could probably mount a bracket on the chiller to hold it higher in the tank than the element. Just make sure it is secure and you can't accidentally knock it onto the element... good question how others solve this issue

 

[passedpawn]

If you are feeling brave (you have the GFCI now, afterall) reach down in the cold water and touch your element while it is on. I've done this with my 5500W without a trip to the hospital.

 

[mhermetz]

If you are feeling brave (you have the GFCI now, afterall) reach down in the cold water and touch your element while it is on. I've done this with my 5500W without a trip to the hospital.

uuuh... C'est What?

that just seems mad....mad like starting a topic about not using a GFCI when you just misunderstood someone....craziness.

the bracket idea is good....actually I just had an idea... Use a couple 3/8 copper 90's to create a sort of hook so i can hang over the lip of the kettle.

 

[Randar]

uuuh... C'est What?

that just seems mad....mad like starting a topic about not using a GFCI when you just misunderstood someone....craziness.

the bracket idea is good....actually I just had an idea... Use a couple 3/8 copper 90's to create a sort of hook so i can hang over the lip of the kettle.

That would probably work. I think the idea of being able to set the chiller on the element is that it conducts heat but not electricity (obvious I know)...

Fragility or longevity of the element would be the only concern, IMO, and that question is probably best in a whole new thread or a search of the forum for how people solve that issue.

 

[chefmike]

Random... but if someone is really interested in the GFCI topic that might want to check out this book:

From Wescoatt, Mike <[email protected]>

A book that has become a sort of GFCI bible to us in our workplace and training is "Overcurrents and Undercurrents" by Earl W Roberts, Mystic Publications, 10 Mason's Island Road, CT, 1996, 860.536.2616. This book has allowed us to use Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI) devices in the best way possible in our wet theatrical/pool/commercial/industrial/special applications environment that we work in that the NEC has not covered in some cases. This book has allowed us to see the theory behind GFCI devices and adopt rules and regulations that lead to the safest environment possible for our technicians, artists, scuba divers, and the general public.

 

[Hullguy]

I agree with your dad on the 240v elements. You need a neutral to trip a GFCI and your elements don't have one!

 

[Brewmoor]

I agree with your dad on the 240v elements. You need a neutral to trip a GFCI and your elements don't have one!

Pretty sure that is not true. You can still trip off a 240v GFCI without a neutral.

 

[Brewmoor]

welp.... this whole debate was a waste of time.

I talked with him when I got home from work. The reason he said it's,"Unnecessary" and "pointless" is because ,"we already have one sitting in the garage"... lol. He thought I was asking whether we needed to buy one or not... not whether it was required for the setup.

yeah my dad, the mad scientist, tends to think he explains things fully in his head but then doesn't actually mention it. He reminds me of that scientist from Fringe...kind of look alike too.

when I explained the mix up, he did state the likely hood of something going wrong was very unlikely. He then explained the house fire he inspected 5 years ago was unexpected but try explaining that to the parents that lost 2 kids.

so yeah... In GOOD news! I came home to my Blingmann sitting in the living room! a whole 2 weeks early!! Go homebrew-supplies.com!

Really hoping I have this ready for my next brew this weekend! So pumped.

Well that solves your moral dilemma. I would not say the thread was a waste of time. It brought a bunch of good info on both sides of the argument.

Him saying that, does not definitively put an end to the debate. We are building...well... essentially commercial appliances with these rigs. Do they absolutely need a GFCI? Would NEC cover something like this? What would the UL want if this were a commercial product? I am not convinced a rule or code would require it. I am sure it would be required to have a disconnect within a certain distance from the unit. Like a air conditioning unit. But maybe it would require a disconnect and a GFCI like a hottub.

 

[Randar]

Well that solves your moral dilemma. I would not say the thread was a waste of time. It brought a bunch of good info on both sides of the argument.

Him saying that, does not definitively put an end to the debate. We are building...well... essentially commercial appliances with these rigs. Do they absolutely need a GFCI? Would NEC cover something like this? What would the UL want if this were a commercial product? I am not convinced a rule or code would require it. I am sure it would be required to have a disconnect within a certain distance from the unit. Like a air conditioning unit. But maybe it would require a disconnect and a GFCI like a hottub.

Excellent point for commercial and professional electricians. IMO, for the majority of the readers and weekend warriors on boards like this the threshold should be lower to the "how much money and effort are you looking to save if the tradeoff is risking your life?"

Maybe I am giving some people too much credit in some cases and too little in others, but I just feel in a place like this filled with hackers and slashers it is extremely dangerous to have a professional-level discussion, as only a fraction of the work is going to be "professional quality" in all likelihood and overkill is probably the best recommendation.

Hell, guys here build brew stands out of 2"x2"x.120" stainless steel! WTF are we doing talking about cutting the cost of a GFCI?

 

[Hermit]

Excellent point for commercial and professional electricians. IMO, for the majority of the readers and weekend warriors on boards like this the threshold should be lower to the "how much money and effort are you looking to save if the tradeoff is risking your life?"

Maybe I am giving some people too much credit in some cases and too little in others, but I just feel in a place like this filled with hackers and slashers it is extremely dangerous to have a professional-level discussion, as only a fraction of the work is going to be "professional quality" in all likelihood and overkill is probably the best recommendation.

Hell, guys here build brew stands out of 2"x2"x.120" stainless steel! WTF are we doing talking about cutting the cost of a GFCI?

Strangely enough I was just discussing Darwin Awards with someone on IM.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Father, the electrician, seems to think it will take a long time to boil. In either case he also seems to think using a GCFI is pointless.

This on the first posting but yet you discover you already have a GFI to install later on around page 6 to 8. Contradicting statements here?

 

[BrewBeemer]

Disagree. There are many situations where the operator completes a circuit from the hot 240VAC to earth gnd.

I've never run across a 240VAC single phase leg to ground before please explain this one it's new to me being a 29 year IBEW member? Possible with 480 VAC single phase with one or the other legs going to ground yes then you would have a 240VAC voltage potential to ground.

L1 & L2 thru your body with single phase I can agree with having a 240 VAC shock potential but not to ground.

Not to start a pissing war just a statement and a correction added, i'm out of here on this thread.

 

[passedpawn]

I've never run across a 240VAC single phase leg to ground before please explain this one it's new to me being a 29 year IBEW member? Possible with 480 VAC single phase with one or the other legs going to ground yes then you would have a 240VAC voltage potential to ground.

L1 & L2 thru your body with single phase I can agree with having a 240 VAC shock potential but not to ground.

Not to start a pissing war just a statement and a correction added, i'm out of here on this thread.

You're right. I should have said 240VAC across lines.

 

[Brewmoor]

Hell, guys here build brew stands out of 2"x2"x.120" stainless steel! WTF are we doing talking about cutting the cost of a GFCI?

touché.................................

Very good point. We do to tend to be kings of overkill! Like you said there is a pretty good percentage of people who probably should not even be attemping an electric build. They do though, so they should make sure any safety facility out there is used.

Just to repeat for the record again. I am using a 30amp GFCI cord on my rig.

 

[The Pol]

I am using a 50A GFCI CB so that I dont get yelled at.

 

[CodeRage]

I agree with your dad on the 240v elements. You need a neutral to trip a GFCI and your elements don't have one!

A GFCI will work with out a neutral..... It's all about current in vs current out.

 

[Hermit]

A GFCI will work with out a neutral..... It's all about current in vs current out.

How do you differentiate current in vs out on a 240 circuit since both sides supply current? Many home appliances that use 240 also have 120 components. I've done amperage readings on dryers and there is a difference in current on the leg that has the motor. I can hardly wait for the people that build the GFCI's to get them mandated for all home appliances.

 

[CodeRage]

How do you differentiate current in vs out on a 240 circuit since both sides supply current? Many home appliances that use 240 also have 120 components. I've done amperage readings on dryers and there is a difference in current on the leg that has the motor. I can hardly wait for the people that build the GFCI's to get them mandated for all home appliances.

in 120V current goes back and forth between neutral and 120V, hence alternating current. if the current leaving L1 is equal to the current flowing through N and vice versa there is no ground fault.

240V is the same thing. Current flows back and forth between L1 and L2, as long as #mA is measured leaving L1 and is flowing #mA into L2 there is no ground fault. When they are out of balance current is going somewhere else and the gfci pops.

They make 2 pole GFCIs that support split phase as well. You can identify them by the curly white pigtail attached to them. They monitor all three, L1, L2, and Neutral and if any current is unaccounted for it pops.

 

[mhermetz]

.....crap I totally need to re-build my chiller.

I can slip it in the boilmaker easily but once the elements are in the chiller it will be sitting 2 inches above the wort level. Unless I can some how slip the chiller under the elements too.

Not entirely bad... but not as effecient as it could be.

 

[CodeRage]

.....crap I totally need to re-build my chiller.

I can slip it in the boilmaker easily but once the elements are in the chiller it will be sitting 2 inches above the wort level. Unless I can some how slip the chiller under the elements too.

Not entirely bad... but not as effecient as it could be.

Thats why I went CFC. Or you could make a fixed mount IC in there that bends around the element.

 

[mhermetz]

I could do that.... Think I would be able to roll out the copper tube without weakening or causes kinks? I assume you have to do that to make the CFC

 

[abracadabra]

You're not talking about a 60W light bulb. You're talking about 30+ amps of continuous peak current, which is PLENTY to kill you.

Oh, and I have seen enough misconceptions of electricity in this thread to warn a few of you to not do your own electrical work...

Speaking of misconceptions "30+ amps of continuous peak current"

240v AC (Alternating Current ) goes from 0v to 120v back to 0v then to 120v in the opposite direction or polarity for a total swing of 240v. The current goes up and down with the voltage and the electrons changes the direction in which they flow as the voltage changes polarity.

DC (Direct Current) can offer a continuous peak current.

Or you'd need something like 3 phase AC to be close to a continuous peak current condition.

Residential electricity is single phase AC.

 

[Jknapp]

Interesting situation happened at work, that sorta applies to the Murphy's Law/GFCI thing..

On a job site, a extension cord (we call em stingers) was plugged into a 20amp GFCI outlet on a 20A circuit. A tech mistakely cut the plugged-in extension cord with his linemans pliers. POP! After making sure he was okay, we went to reset the GFCI - but it wasn't tripped. Went to the panel & the 20a breaker was what tripped.

Hmm. The GFCI was wired correctly: wires to panel feed the Line side. GFCI tests fine.

Our theory: as his pliers cut through the 12/3 cord, his cutter first severed the hot & ground first, cutting the neutal after the panel breaker popped. That's our theory, but in any case the GFCI, which is supposed to be sensitive, didn't do anything.

Anyway, moral of the story: Things sometimes don't go the way we want or expect. GFCI's are great things, even if they don't ALWAYS provide protection. Oh, and Murphy's Law is always in effect.

 

[CodeRage]

Speaking of misconceptions "30+ amps of continuous peak current"

240v AC (Alternating Current ) goes from 0v to 120v back to 0v then to 120v in the opposite direction or polarity for a total swing of 240v. The current goes up and down with the voltage and the electrons changes the direction of it flows or with the change of voltage polarity.

DC (Direct Current) can offer a continuous peak current.

Or you'd need something like 3 phase AC to be close to a continuous peak current condition.

Since the voltage is rated at RMS saying the current is continuous peak at I RMS is perfectly acceptable...