Efficiency too high?

[stpug]

I widened the gap on my mill today for brew day. I hit 83% efficiency which is perfect IMO.

I still don't have a feeler gauge - I used a dime. Apparently it worked perfectly.

My calipers say a dime is on average about 0.050" (it varied around the perimeter of the dime from about 0.047 to 0.052). FWIW

 

[LandoLincoln]

This is all over the board, but the one thing I'm seeing that seems to be consistent.... Your salts.

You're adding salts to everything including the distilled water. You did some untreated tap water on the stouts, and you're having good luck with your stouts when adding salts, but that's probably because their flavor profile is strong enough to mask any off flavors you're detecting... Or your water profile is fine for that style.

I would seriously consider starting your trouble shooting by eliminating all salt additions and using straight distilled water for a batch. Choose one you had bad luck with before, but I would recommend not dry hopping for this batch.

I know you've done a centennial that came out good and another that didn't, but there could've been others factors. I would start with the one consistent thing that I'm seeing in the process, and that is the addition of salts.

Using 100% distilled and no salts would most likely make for some bad beer, so that's not a good option.

100% bottled drinking water and no salts combined with a moderate pale ale recipe would be a better option, but still really not optimal, since he doesn't have a pH meter yet.

 

[insanim8er]

I meant bottled spring water anyway... And I've heard of breweries who use 100% distilled water for pilsners. I think it should be with the cream of three crops recipe with bottled water, but I'm over this whole post anyway. When someone has an opinion or answer for everything suggested, but no results... I move on.

 

[LovesIPA]

Just finished up brewing an amber ale. Split it into two fermenters and one gets a rehydrated packet of US-05 and the other gets a starter of WLP001 propagated from a slant.

I missed my OG by 5 points though. My new SQ-14 that I bought for use with my yet-to-be-used keggle seems to be a little inconsistent. I had a good strong boil but not quite as strong as I normally do. I guess it takes some time to get dialed in with new equipment.

MrHadack I haven't seen you post in here yet, I hope you're still out there.

 

[MrHadack]

MrHadack I haven't seen you post in here yet, I hope you're still out there.

Sure am. I've been sick, work was pretty busy this week, and I am going to be doing a fair bit of traveling soon so things have been hectic. But I saw the old thread get closed and I have been keeping up with this one. I don't have much to add yet; unfortunately (or fortunately maybe?) excessively high efficiency is not something I had to deal with.

Once this split batch is finished fermenting and you've sampled it, maybe we'll get some things figured out.

 

[LovesIPA]

I looked for a pH meter on Amazon, and for $13 I certainly don't have any excuse not to have one. Should be here tomorrow.

 

[LovesIPA]

I also opened up one of the Tangerine ales today that I bottled 5 days ago. There is some slight carbonation and there is ZERO off-flavor or aroma in it.

So it's not an infection, it's not the water... what else could it be? I tasted all three kegs I have on tap today and they ALL have the off-flavor, including the rest of the Tangerine ale.

 

[stpug]

I also opened up one of the Tangerine ales today that I bottled 5 days ago. There is some slight carbonation and there is ZERO off-flavor or aroma in it.

So it's not an infection, it's not the water... what else could it be? I tasted all three kegs I have on tap today and they ALL have the off-flavor, including the rest of the Tangerine ale.

Did you use the same tubing for bottling as you did to transfer to the keg? If so then you can exclude the tubing as a possible culprit, which would pretty much leave the kegs and anything that gets put into them (cleaner, sanitizer, the actual steel of the keg [walls, diptubes], diptube orings, posts, poppits, co2).

 

[LovesIPA]

Did you use the same tubing for bottling as you did to transfer to the keg? If so then you can exclude the tubing as a possible culprit, which would pretty much leave the kegs and anything that gets put into them (cleaner, sanitizer, the actual steel of the keg [walls, diptubes], diptube orings, posts, poppits, co2).

Good point. I did exactly that. I used the auto-siphon and attached the bottling wand directly to the output end of the auto-siphon tubing.

I also did not hook up the tap side to the keg until it was already carbonated.

The only thing that makes any sense at all now is the CO2 itself. A few days ago I disconnected the CO2 cylinder from the regulator and smelled the gas. I didn't pick up anything at all from it other than a burnt nasal cavity.

I feel like a lot of things have been eliminated at this point but what's left still doesn't make much sense. Could I have gotten "bad" CO2 every time I've swapped my cylinder?

 

[stpug]

Good point. I did exactly that. I used the auto-siphon and attached the bottling wand directly to the output end of the auto-siphon tubing.

I also did not hook up the tap side to the keg until it was already carbonated.

The only thing that makes any sense at all now is the CO2 itself. A few days ago I disconnected the CO2 cylinder from the regulator and smelled the gas. I didn't pick up anything at all from it other than a burnt nasal cavity.

I feel like a lot of things have been eliminated at this point but what's left still doesn't make much sense. Could I have gotten "bad" CO2 every time I've swapped my cylinder?

I doubt it, but it's possible. So, do you know anyone else that kegs their beer and it tastes fine? If so, then the next beer you keg just take to them to carbonate it and see if it doesn't get the bad characteristic you keep experiencing.

 

[LovesIPA]

I doubt it, but it's possible. So, do you know anyone else that kegs their beer and it tastes fine? If so, then the next beer you keg just take to them to carbonate it and see if it doesn't get the bad characteristic you keep experiencing.

Unfortunately I don't. Sacramento-area home brewers seem to be reclusive bunch.

 

[stpug]

Unfortunately I don't. Sacramento-area home brewers seem to be reclusive bunch.

Then how about keg conditioning your next batch? You'll still have to seat the lid with some CO2 but not a lot; hopefully just one burst of 20-30psi for a few seconds. The rest will be created over a few weeks from the priming sugar. The caveat here is that you'd still be using some CO2 from your tank which could potentially be enough to cause an off flavor if it's an biological contaminant (as opposed to just a gas characteristic).

 

[opiate82]

You could also try to naturally carb a beer in a keg just to eliminate (or possibly confirm) the keg itself as a potential source.

 

[Hoppity]

Sugar prime the keg, but seal it at a bar (or anybody else who has CO2). Get one of those picnic CO2 cartridge chargers (They're good to have in inventory). This will totally take your tank out of the loop. If the beer is good, change gas vendors

 

[Facinerous]

Hey Loves IPA! Would you please do me a huge favor in trying to find the answer...

My experiment in mind is this. Please pour one glass of one of your kegged beers. Hopefully that will clear the line from your keg to your dispenser. I hate to ask you to waste beer, but immediately after pouring the first glass pour a second.

Taste test both glasses. The second glass I would recommend tasting first, then the first one your poured. After having done this, is there less off flavor in the second glass than the first? Please have your lady do the same, tasting in the same order but don't tell her what the experiment is.

Short story. I just recently went and bought some keg equipment from a person off craigslist. Fortunately for me, this person was in business of setting up draft systems for restaurants/wineries, but he was moving out of the area and needed to unload his stock of equipment. Through conversation we ended up talking about stainless steel grades, and he said that he was buying one grade of stainless for his equipment but had to change because of off flavors developed from the beer or soda reacting with one of the properties of the steel. I so wish my memory served me better, but essentially I'm pretty sure he changed from 303 stainless to 304.

My hypothesis. It may be highly possible that your dispensing equipment may be that grade of stainless, where it is actually reacting with the beer and creating a compound resulting in the off flavor. If the liquid sits in the line for a period of time then that compound may build up, and end up in your glass more concentrated than it would normally be. So by pouring two glasses consecutively any off flavor that could be developed in the line should be gone by the time you pour a second glass.

I'll try to call the guy and see if he can refresh my memory.

 

[LovesIPA]

Naturally carbing the next batch I keg will definitely happen.

Facinerous - I just tried that. Very interesting results. The first pour wasn't good as expected. The second one was much better. I poured a third and it was almost drinkable. I still pick up on the off-flavor but it's much less subdued.

I have stainless taps and shanks. One is a Perlick. I bought it all from Northern Brewer.

 

[satph]

I reordered your beers and simplified your ratings into good, bad and weird:

Good
15 Centennial blonde
4 Centennial Blonde
2 Chocolate porter
9 Chocolate porter
10 Amber Ale
14 Amber Ale
11 Extra Stout

Bad
6 wheat beer
22 Fat Sam
8 OktoberFAST
13 common Room ESB
17 Dry-hopped American Ale
19 Amber Ale
20 Tangerine Ale
21 Bell's Two Hearted
12 Nelson Sauvin IPA
16 Nelson Sauvin IPA
7 Chinook IPA
3 Mosaic IPA
23 Mosaic IPA

Weird/infected
18 Chocolate porter
1 Extracurricular hoptivity
5 Jagged Edge IPA


The one bad Amber vs. the other two and the good bottled tangerine are confusing. But I would look at what the good batches have in common with each other, what the bad batches have in common with each other, and what differences there are between the good and bad batches. The first thing I noticed is that all of your hoppy beers are bad.

 

[Facinerous]

Just got off the phone with the keg equipment guy. He said he has to change his 303 stainless out for 304. He said that the acidity reacts with the manganese in the steel which was creating hydrogen (sulfate?).

303 is more common because it is easier to machine, but from my understanding 304 is a higher grade steel. This can also be developed from coated couplers.

I'm not sure in the total validity of all this, but if you just poured three consecutive beers and they tasted better as you poured. I would start looking at your dispensing equipment as a possible culprit.

[edit] 304 is actually more common.

 

[LovesIPA]

The one bad Amber vs. the other two and the good bottled tangerine are confusing. But I would look at what the good batches have in common with each other, what the bad batches have in common with each other, and what differences there are between the good and bad batches. The first thing I noticed is that all of your hoppy beers are bad.

Yeah I've noticed that too. If I knew what the bad batches all had in common, and what was different about them vs. the batches that came out good I probably would have been able to figure out what I was doing wrong.

Just got off the phone with the keg equipment guy. He said he has to change his 303 stainless out for 304. He said that the acidity reacts with the manganese in the steel which was creating hydrogen (sulfate?).

303 is more common because it is easier to machine, but from my understanding 304 is a higher grade steel. This can also be developed from coated couplers.

I'm not sure in the total validity of all this, but if you just poured three consecutive beers and they tasted better as you poured. I would start looking at your dispensing equipment as a possible culprit.

[edit] 304 is actually more common.

Here's the stainless dispensing stuff that touches my beer:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/stainless-steel-faucet.html
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/stainless-tail-piece-1-4.html
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/stainless-shank-4.html

I looked up my orders and these are the *exact* pieces I ordered. If these pieces could make beer taste bad, why does a large and reputable HBS store sell them? In the case of the Tangerine ale, the beer never touched any of the dispensing hardware until the moment I poured the first taste. Could this reaction happen this quickly?

I'm not ruling any of them out as possible culprits - I'm just saying this doesn't make any sense at all.

I will definitely call NB tomorrow and ask them what grade of stainless steel these parts are made of.

This is so frustrating. Every time someone comes up with a good experiment, the results fly in the face of the results of other experiments.

 

[LovesIPA]

Facinerous - I just tried that. Very interesting results. The first pour wasn't good as expected. The second one was much better. I poured a third and it was almost drinkable. I still pick up on the off-flavor but it's much less subdued.

Now that this pint has been sitting out for a while, the off-flavor is much stronger. I just took a sip of the pint and it's much less drinkable.

 

[Facinerous]

Well that sucks. I thought it would have been worth a shot. Maybe NB will have some good info for ya. If you find anything out with regard to this let me know.

The only other thing I could think of involving the dispensing part is the dip tube. Thats really a long shot though.

[edit] I can't confirm or deny the legitimacy of NB. I think they are a good supplier. For the first time I ordered some yeast from them which I couldn't get from my LHBS but absolutely wanted to use. I just got that yeast today and was extremely disappointed in the packaging lacking any sort of cooling for the transport. Thank god I ordered it on two day shipping.

 

[LovesIPA]

Update:

I haven't kegged the amber yet. I will probably do it this weekend. I have been really busy and having a ****ty week to boot - (minor car accident that was 100% my fault, screwed up a config file at work that made me waste 16 straight hours of time, and in the cleanup of that, accidentally blew up the customer's production server) so I haven't really had much time, except for the fact that I was able to squeeze in a brew session on Monday.

I got my pH meter, and I also watched John Kimmch's Q&A video on youtube (which is EXCELLENT, btw), specifically the part about mash pH. I wanted to shoot for 5.2 on Monday, and I used Bru 'n' Water to figure out the acid additions I needed to make. I followed everything to the letter and the mash pH came out to 4.8 at room temperature. So it's apparent that I will need to adjust mash pH on the fly next time.

This is the recipe I brewed: http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/LaraPaleAleNHC2009

With one change... I like my beers a little darker, so I added 6 oz of special roast to "orange" it up a bit. Other than that, exactly as brewed, adjusted to 5 gallons and the AA% of the hops I have on hand. I plan on kegging this within the next week and I will try to hold to that. My efficiency was 86.4% this time around, even with the 0.042 gap in the mill.

The bottled and kegged Tangerine ale: They really are two completely different beers. The bottled ones have carbonated up pretty well by now, and they taste quite good. There is a good tangerine flavor in the beer. SWMBO smelled and tasted it and recognized the fruit flavor in it right away. Her sense of smell and taste are better than mine.

However, out of the keg, it's nowhere near as good. The "off-flavor" has settled a bit and doesn't jump out of the glass at you. But it's still not a very good beer. There is enough of an off-flavor that really ruins the flavor and aroma of the beer. I have been making myself drink them, and they're drinkable, but not very good.

In the meantime, I swapped CO2 cylinders again at the welding supply shop. I also got a chance to speak to the manager. It turns out they deal a LOT with local wineries and breweries - this is wine country, after all, and Sacramento has an exploding craft brew scene. He said that I am the first person to suspect anything wrong with the gas. No one else has reported any problems. So take that for what it's worth.

I plan on brewing next Monday again. If Bru 'n' Water models my mash pH at 5.6 I am going to see if that will end up at 5.2.

Is it possible this whole thing is astringency from too much alkalinity in the mash combined with carbonic acid from force carbing the beer with CO2?

 

[grathan]

I suffered a whole 2 years of bad batches because of alkilinity. I would continue splitting the batches between bottle and keg until you figure it out and report back so we can all learn something.

 

[satph]

Since you brought up water chemistry...

I was surprised at how low a pH Kimmich was calling for. He said you were screwed if the pH was above 5.3, but most other sources call for +/-5.4. Next go-round on the Heady Topper clone, we're going for a pH of 5.2.

I just did my first batch with a pH meter. EZ water said we'd have a mash pH of 5.54, and we needed to add 9ml of lactic acid to the 12 gallon batch to get to 5.31. It was that low without the lactic acid. So we didn't add the acid. Have you mentioned the water you're using?

 

[LovesIPA]

It's reverse osmosis water. I build it back up with various salts to create a water profile, which is specific to each batch I brew.

 

[mtnagel]

Most likely Kimmich was talking about the pH as mash temperatures. Talked about here.

Also I see you bought a cheap pH meter. Most people say those aren't going to be accurate enough.

 

[LovesIPA]

Yeah, I think you're right. So I guess I'll just use mash temp for pH readings from now on. I will keep an eye on the calibration for the meter. If it starts to give bad readings I'll upgrade. Thanks for the heads-up.

I kegged and bottled the amber ale on Saturday. To recap, I split the 5.5 gallons of finished wort into two fermenters. I pitched rehydrated US-05 into one and WLP-001 yeast propagated from a slant in the other. I bottled twelve 12-ouncers out of each fermenter and then kegged the rest.

The good news is that both kegs taste exactly the same. The bad news is that they both have the same off-flavor. I haven't tried any of the bottles yet but I have a sneaking suspicion they're going to taste fine.

The bottled tangerine ale is still good. I only have three left. I took the keg out of the keezer to make room for the amber ale. There is still a big difference between the two but now that the beer has been in the keg for about 3 weeks the off-flavor (and aroma) seems to be less apparent. The Fat Sam is starting to get easier to drink too. The off-flavor is less but it's still there.

I have an Amarillo IPA that has been naturally carbonating for exactly two weeks today. I'll take one of the kegs of amber out this week and tap it. I've been trying to be really patient letting it carb up.

Northern Brewer said that everything is 304 except for the lever and shank, which are 303.

 

[stpug]

Total longshot here but I just read this post and wondered if maybe this might be happening with your kegging system:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/d...ng-discouraged-457360/index2.html#post6033463

(maybe not diacetyl but the dirty gas line issue)

 

[LovesIPA]

They don't have any obvious dirt in them but I don't think I ever replaced those. I've had new CO2 cylinders, a new regulator and a new manifold but not new lines.

I read the stuff on diacetyl and I keep asking myself if I could describe the flavor as "buttery" but it's hard. I guess I could but that wouldn't be the first word I'd use to describe it. The one thing that sticks in my mind is how diacetyl can completely destroy hop flavor and aroma. That certainly fits what's going on here.

I tapped the Amarillo Red today. It tastes good. Great hop aroma and flavor. No sign of the off-flavor at all.

 

[opiate82]

The few times I have experienced diacetyl it has been very obvious and easily identifiable. Even when I had some friends who know nothing more about describing a beer other than "it was good" or "it was bad" try a beer with a diacetyl problem, they were very easily able to identify and describe the diacetyl flavor. Diacetyl also has a specific oily mouthfeel.

iirc the Amarillo Red is the beer you naturally carbed in the keg right? If that is the case it sounds like you either have some problem with your CO2 system or an as of yet unidentified intermittent problem in your brew process.

 

[LovesIPA]

I am beginning to think it's CO2-related as well. That seems to be the common factor. I'm going to brew an all-extract batch one night this week too. That will eliminate the entire mashing side of the process. I don't know why I didn't think of doing that earlier.

 

[LovesIPA]

The amarillo red has now picked up the off-flavor after a week or so in the keg. The hop aroma and flavor is gone.

One keg of the amber kicked. It never improved. I put the other one back in the keezer to see if it's any different.

I tried a bottle of the amber from the US-05 batch and I'm pretty sure I know what diacetyl tastes like now. It was like a bottle of butterscotch. Not sure if the bottle wasn't completely clean but I have quite a few more of those to try.

The Maris Otter/Simcoe SMaSH that I brewed a gallon of and bottled is really, really good. Great hop aroma and flavor. I really like Simcoe. I just wish I could brew a whole batch of it and not have to bottle it. That batch was RO water with the same salts I use for a 5 gallon batch so I'm confident the water isn't the problem. It would be nice to be able to update that other thread.

Everything at this point says it's the CO2. It's the only common factor. I'm going to switch suppliers and see if that fixes it. I also want to replace the gas lines and QD's just because I can't see how it's the CO2 but it's got to be something.

Does anyone else have these kinds of problems????

 

[ph0ngwh0ng]

Heard people had problems with CO2 causing off flavors before. Why don't you try carbing a keg full of water (RO, RO w/ salts, tap water, hop tea, ...) and see if the problem arise before changing hoses and all...

 

[LovesIPA]

I've done it twice. Tastes just like water.


Sent from my iPhone while cruising down the freeway

 

[ph0ngwh0ng]

I've done it twice. Tastes just like water.


Sent from my iPhone while cruising down the freeway

Damn, This is crazy.

 

[ph0ngwh0ng]

Maybe this? Have you noticed that it's always from the same keg(s)?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/ruined-my-beer-kegging-what-468614/index3.html#post6063254

 

[LovesIPA]

I didn't see that thread but I will definitely keep an eye on it. Thanks.

I have a hard time believing it's the kegs. I have eight of them and I rotate them out. They are cleaned thoroughly with hot water and PBW. I have a diptube brush that I use on the inside of all the tubes. Everything is put together wet with star-san. I replaced all the rubber parts when I bought them.

 

[IslandLizard]

Then how about keg conditioning your next batch? You'll still have to seat the lid with some CO2 but not a lot; hopefully just one burst of 20-30psi for a few seconds. The rest will be created over a few weeks from the priming sugar. The caveat here is that you'd still be using some CO2 from your tank which could potentially be enough to cause an off flavor if it's an biological contaminant (as opposed to just a gas characteristic).

Good idea, or let someone else keg a batch.

If you doubt the quality of your CO2, you could run some through one of those small plastic inline HEPA filters to just seal the keg. Not sure how efficient they are in capturing the possible bugs, they're kinda thin. I'm sure you could find better filters.

Are the regulators clean? Bugs can hide there too, after a backflow, or a tainted bottle used before.

 

[WayFrae]

I can't remember if you have done this or not but have you tried just keg carbonating with priming sugar and then just serving with the CO2? Maybe you are just sensitive to any flavors you might get from force carbing.

 

[LovesIPA]

Good idea, or let someone else keg a batch.

I can't even find someone willing to come over and taste it. I've tried. I don't know of a single other homebrewer in the area.

Are the regulators clean? Bugs can hide there too, after a backflow, or a tainted bottle used before.

I swapped the regulator and the manifold.

I can't remember if you have done this or not but have you tried just keg carbonating with priming sugar and then just serving with the CO2? Maybe you are just sensitive to any flavors you might get from force carbing.

Yes I have. It tastes fine at first and then the off-flavor shows up.