efficiency solved

[jermillion]

After a long bout with poor efficiencies I finally solved the problem. Heat the entire mash up to about 160 and then sparge.

I read everything that I could about low efficiency but nothing mentioned seemed to work. I milled correctly, ensuring that I used a gauge to set my mill correctly. I calibrated my thermometer and hit my mash temps correctly. I tried fly, batch, and BIAB techniques for sparging and tried sparge temperatures from 170 to boiling and everything remained bad.

One day everything went horrible and had a stuck sparge. So I dumped everything back into my pot and heated it up to about 160 because it got too cool while I was fiddling around and cussing a lot. After I heated it up to 160 I dumped it all in a voil bag and sparged with water that was around 170. Voila, I had good efficiency at last.

It is an extra step that is a bit messy, but if you are experiencing poor efficiency and nothing else does the trick. Give it a try. I has made a world of difference to me.

 

[beersk]

I believe pH of the mash plays a part in efficiency as well. Are you doing anything with the mash chemistry at all?

 

[duboman]

Which efficiency are you having issues with? Mash/Lauter or brew house? There is a big difference and many variables to consider.

 

[jermillion]

My PH is often around 6 and I have been adding some gypsum but I didn't see any significant effects until heating up the mash.

 

[duboman]

My PH is often around 6 and I have been adding some gypsum but I didn't see any significant effects until heating up the mash.

You might want to try adding a little lactic acid instead or with gypsum to drop the pH. Both should be added in the mash. Are you using a water calculator or just guessing on amounts?

 

[ArcLight]

My PH is often around 6 and I have been adding some gypsum but I didn't see any significant effects until heating up the mash.

Are you using hard water? It may be buffering your pH and keeping it high. You can try using a blend of local water and distilled water, maybe 50-50.

 

[bxtzd3]

well the one thing i have noticed with AG brewing is its like making soup, the first couple of batches i got piss poor eff. but this last one i said f it. i mashed in stirred checked temp and sat on the couch with my boys until the timer rang. i found i was messing around to much with temps and stuff. i just leave it alone and veeola. this is me and my issue. when you heat up the mash again its like reducing a sauce, your boiling off liquid and making the wort stronger, so to speak. i believe its call decotion<sp> in the brew world.

 

[ajf]

I increased my efficiency by a consistent 10% when I started doing a mash out prior to fly sparging. I initially thought that this was because of the increased temperature of the sparge, which increased from the low 150's to the high 160's.
Now I'm not so sure. Kaiser has stated that he has sparged with cold water, and not noticed any meaningful difference in efficiency. I didn't believe him at the time, but he had done the experiment and I hadn't, and still haven't.
I now think (but am not certain) that the increase in efficiency, is mainly caused by stirring in the mash out water very thoroughly, and by diluting the mash. I generally mash at 1 qt / lb, but adding the mash out water after the mash is complete, reduces this to about 1.5 qts / lb, and stirring thoroughly helps extracting the sugars that were trapped in the grain, making the sparge much easier.
In your case, you certainly mixed it very well, but you may find that giving the mash a good stir before drawing off the first runnings has the desired effect.

-a.

 

[brewkinger]

^ This.

When all other factors in the mash are right, the STIR is the one thing that brought me up from high 60's to high 70's and low 80s for efficiency.

 

[924RACR]

This is starting to sound familiar... I've been worried in fact that I don't do a mash-out step, since I can't readily heat my mash tun...

Instead, between large volume needed for sparge, slightly undersized HLT, and the lack of a proper mash-out capability via heat/recirc, what I've been doing is tossing in about 2 gal (on a 10gal batch) of heated sparge water at the end of the mash... stir thoroughly... then vorlauf and fly sparge. I usually can get right around 80% eff. Would love to step a touch higher than that, but no matter what I do it seems to be happy to stay at 80% dead-on...

Still, this is starting to sound like the technique I stumbled upon wasn't a complete disaster...

 

[TheZymurgist]

^ This.

When all other factors in the mash are right, the STIR is the one thing that brought me up from high 60's to high 70's and low 80s for efficiency.

Yup! It's not the mash out, it's the stirring. I stir my mash every 20 minutes and I consistently get over 80%. I also do a double batch sparge where I add the water, stir, let it sit for 10 minutes, stir, then drain. I don't do a mash out.

 

[brewkinger]

I was involved in a recent batch sparge thread where the general consensus was that the post stir wait was even not necessary. The stir would free up the residual sugars from the grains and then drain them out. Makes sense if you think about it. I thought about it and realized that the wait might actually allow some of the sugars to re-attach to the grains.

Just my thought though. My last batch I double batch sparged, stirred like crazy and then drained and got 79%.

 

[pjj2ba]

IN THEORY the temperature should not matter as far as efficiency of the sparge is concerned. We aren't even close to the solubility limits of sugar in wort (think of how thick LME is!). If one is seeing a temperature affect, it is due to some other problem, like understirring, or a poor grain bed if fly sparging. Channeling too can be an issue with any type of sparge resulting in poor efficiency.

One doesn't need to stir like a mad man/woman. Just make sure it is well mixed.

Temperature might help in preventing/limiting a stuck sparge as hotter wort/water does flow better. A stuck sparge can certainly affect efficiency

 

[MuddyCreek]

I stir often while mashing.

As for sparging, I do batch style so there is much stirring. I do let my mash sit for 10 or 15 minutes after I hit my mash out temp and stir. Perhaps I'll save myself some time and do an immediate drain after I hit temp and stir things up just to see if it helps.

Part of the problem is, I have a general efficiency rate and if I start improving significantly I end up fiddling with the wort on the other side of the process. I suppose that's a good problem to have though. Water is cheaper than grain after all.

 

[pjj2ba]

I was involved in a recent batch sparge thread where the general consensus was that the post stir wait was even not necessary. The stir would free up the residual sugars from the grains and then drain them out. Makes sense if you think about it. I thought about it and realized that the wait might actually allow some of the sugars to re-attach to the grains.

Just my thought though. My last batch I double batch sparged, stirred like crazy and then drained and got 79%.

I do not wait once I hit mash out temps. I just let it stop swirling and then start to vorlauf.

I think the big thing with the stirring is not so much detaching the sugars from the grains, but making the sugar solution uniform throughout and avoiding pockets of high and low concentrations of dissolved sugars. The sugars are far more attracted to the water than the grain bed, but it is an equilibrium reaction so there probably is a small extent of binding. The grain bed really is just acting like a simple filter. I don't think efficiency would drop much if one waits after hitting their mash out temps, but of course there is no reason to wait - as far as the process is concerned. Now phone calls, spouse, kids, etc. might be a reason to wait before sparging.

That being said, I think you will get a better/easier/faster sparge the sooner you start it after you stop stirring. The more uniform the grain bed the better the sparge. When you wait longer, the grain bed starts to settle, with the more dense stuff settling first and then lighter, and so on resulting in layers. Each layer has different filtering characteristics, generally getting worse as you go up. This might not be so bad if the fine stuff was on the bottom and the course stuff on top. That way as the wort filtered through, the course filter would remove the course stuff, and by the time the wort got to the fine filter, it would flow faster as all of the course stuff has been removed already. However, in the mash/latuer tun, it is just the opposite and you make the fine filter do all of the work.

I've noticed that particularly when I have a grain bill loaded with higher protein grains that I can get a skim of protein on top of the grain bed during the sparge. The layer is more difficult for sparge water to flow through. I have seen where if the skim has formed, then towards the end of the sparge, the water will flow over the skim to the edges of the tun and run down the sides (edge channeling) If you start your sparge quickly after stirring, the components of the protein skim get trapped throughout the grainbed.

I batch sparge and occasionally will give the top of the grain bed a gentle little stir to prevent the skim layer from forming.

 

[TheZymurgist]

I wait before sparging because I've found I don't have to vorlauf as long. I get a much cleaner wort after letting the grain bed settle. Sounds like you guys have different experiences.

 

[pjj2ba]

I wait before sparging because I've found I don't have to vorlauf as long. I get a much cleaner wort after letting the grain bed settle. Sounds like you guys have different experiences.

I use a pump so it is very easy for me to vorlauf until it runs clear. The first bit may be a bit cloudy so I just keep recirculating until it isn't and then drain

 

[brewkinger]

I wait before sparging because I've found I don't have to vorlauf as long. I get a much cleaner wort after letting the grain bed settle. Sounds like you guys have different experiences.

This is where our processes differ slightly. I start draining immediately after the stirring of my sparge water. (To quote Yooper: "Stir like it owes you money!")
This is going to extract any remaining sugars that are caught up in the grain husks and get them into solution.
Zymurgist refers to his grain bed settling naturally, as I prefer to set the grain bed myself by starting to drain the runnings. Very slowly at first to get the setting of the grain bed and then once the water level is below the grain bed, I open it up a little bit more and then about 3/4 of the way open on the valve.

Just my .02, but it makes a world of sense to me and I have seen positive results already. My benchmark is going to be 85% on my next batch.

 

[jermillion]

I'm the originator of this particular thread and must admit, I haven't been stirring. So I took the advice to heart. I added two teaspoons of gypsum instead of one and stirred real well before sparging. It did the trick.

Now I feel silly for not doing it before. Gracias!!!!