Efficiency problems, influence of flaked wheat and oats.

[beervoid]

Hey everyone.

So I brewed a belgium wit the other day with a OG of 1.050 which I finally hit for the first time with my equipment set up. The grist consisted of rougly 15% wheat malt, 15% flaked wheat and 20% flaked oats.. the rest was pale malt and some dextrine.

My next brew I was aiming for an OG of 1.063 and the malt bill consisted of 15% flaked wheat 15% flaked oat and I missed my OG by 3 points.. resulting OG 1.060

I have a Grainfather like brewing system (ace/klarstein). My grain mill is set to creditcard size, pretty fine and I get a good grind. Most people report up to 78% efficiency.

I already have my equipment efficiency pretty low for what I see others have. (68% efficiency)
So it seems I have dropped lower this time (64%). I've been consistently having problems hitting my OG and was wondering if the % of flaked oats and wheats might have something to do with it?

Is any brew above 1.050 considered a heavier / bigger beer? and is it normal for the efficiency to drop?

Thanks alot!

 

[Sadu]

I've recently switched from BIAB to Grainfather and have had a huge drop in efficiency. Standard for me with BIAB+sparge is about 80%, I hit a new low of 54% with the Grainfather on the weekend which I'm not very impressed about. I'm lost as to what is inherently different about these things compared to BIAB+sparge. To be fair I'm using a hop spider with the Grainfather which makes the efficiency seem worse than it is (compared with chucking everything in the FV) but still.

Anyway, to answer your question. I do think you need to give the mash more time if you have a high percentage of unmalted adjuncts like oats and flaked wheat. A lot of people say that most of the conversion happens in the first 15 mins, personally that hasn't been my experience at all. I find that 90 mins is necessary for the mash if you have 20% or so of adjuncts in your recipe, otherwise your efficiency can suck.

Try mashing for longer and see if that helps. It sounds like you have already checked your grind which is usually the main culprit.

 

[beervoid]

Yeah im pretty sure my grind is good, I've played around with different settings and didn't get much different results.
Kind of experiencin the same as you, always did BIAB and had 75% + efficiency now with this system im lacking..

What I did do different with the Wit bier is I did a protein rest at 122f for 20min so that might explain the added efficiency. I was under the impression that flaked oat and wheat should already be steamed and gelatinized so im not sure if this really made a difference.

 

[thehaze]

I get anywhere from 72 ( really large grain bills ---> 19-20 lbs grains ) to 85% efficiency with my Grainfather, depending on crush, grain bill, mash temp and mash time.

Larger grainbills will suffer from lower efficiency. Grain bills up to 15 lbs should sneak up from 75 to 85%, depending on the grains used and the crush. All pale malt/pilsner ( and similar ) recipes up to 14-15 lbs, should easily get you 80-82% eff. with the right crush.

Flaked grains do not have the same enzimatic power as plain grains ( http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency ), or at least this is what I remember ( correct me if wrong ). I usually try not to rely a larger portion of my grain bill on flaked adjuncts. ( Belgian Wit beers are brewed with unmalted wheat; flaked wheta can work, but you will not get the same flavours )

I've done 1.080-1.090 beers with the Grainfather and that was easily obtainable, so no, 1.050 is a relatively small gravity for a Grainfather like system. I am not familiar with Ace/Klarstein, so I cannot comment on its efficiency and design.

I never do step mashes for wits and wheat beers, as there is no need for that in 2018, unless you believe and have experienced it, that it brings something in your beers, which you want again. ( I recently brewed a Pale Ale with 50% Rye malt and I didn't do any step mashes, nor have I experienced issues with stuck sparge, etc. )

Now to try to troubleshoot the low efficiency for next brews, I recommend the following, which I sometimes use myself for certain grainbills:

- brew some recipes where you do not have wheat, rye, rice, flaked anything or too much Crystal/Caramel malts ( maybe up to 5% ). Stick to Pilsner/Pale/2-row/Vienna/MO/GP, etc. and make sure you have a well-balanced crush

- mash. low ( 149-150F ) and mash for 90 minutes. Half-way through the mash., stop the recirculation and gently give your grains a fluff-up. Resume the mash

- sparge with enough water, to make sure you do not leave any sugars behind

- try to boil for 90 minutes ( although not needed with most moderne malts, you can be certain there will be no DMS in the wort and you will also hit your OG many times )

Good luck.

 

[beervoid]

I read step mashing with unmalted grains is neccesary for optimal mouthfeel and head retention. Belgium brewers still apply this techniques so this is probably more true for belgium style beers.

My last grainbill was only 12.8 lbs though with alot of wheat and oat, following your advice I might try with less wheat or oats in the bill and see how it goes.
Cheers everyone

 

[ProblemChild]

I read step mashing with unmalted grains is neccesary for optimal mouthfeel and head retention. Belgium brewers still apply this techniques so this is probably more true for belgium style beers.

My last grainbill was only 12.8 lbs though with alot of wheat and oat, following your advice I might try with less wheat or oats in the bill and see how it goes.
Cheers everyone

The step mashes are used when malt that is not fully modified is used. Belgian breweries may well be intentionally using malts that are not fully modified.

My understanding is that using unmodified malts and employing the step mash create the malty flavor, mouth feel and flavor they are after. Conversely, a step mash, particularly a longer one, can break down the proteins responsible for head retention and mouth feel when used on fully modified malts - leaving the brew a bit lifeless.

 

[beervoid]

The step mashes are used when malt that is not fully modified is used. Belgian breweries may well be intentionally using malts that are not fully modified.

My understanding is that using unmodified malts and employing the step mash create the malty flavor, mouth feel and flavor they are after. Conversely, a step mash, particularly a longer one, can break down the proteins responsible for head retention and mouth feel when used on fully modified malts - leaving the brew a bit lifeless.

Interesting info so on that note one would preferably brew with either entirely malted or unmalted grains?

 

[ProblemChild]

Interesting info so on that note one would preferably brew with either entirely malted or unmalted grains?

That is where I would have to defer to much higher powers. http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/what-is-malted-grain/barley-malt-defined