Efficiency Curiosity

[pricelessbrewing]

Brew in a bag (biab) is where you mash with the full volume of water in your boil kettle, and then just lift all the grain out at once with the bag. There's usually no sparge.

Well that's just your opinion man. :fro:

One of the best things, IMO, is that biab is so versatile. Because it's just a (better) mash filter, you can really brew in whatever way you want. You can no sparge, or you can sparge and increase efficiency a bit if you do, or you can do a decoction, or multi-step mash, or single infusion, or direct fire (proceed with caution).

 

[TomVA]

My LHBS mills at 0.040" and I get a consistent 75-80% BH efficiency. I BIAB with full water volume and no sparging (so easy and convenient!), but I do squeeze the bejesus out of the grains after the one hour mash.

 

[Gytaryst]

My LHBS mills at 0.040" and I get a consistent 75-80% BH efficiency. I BIAB with full water volume and no sparging (so easy and convenient!), but I do squeeze the bejesus out of the grains after the one hour mash.

I did BIAB (partial boil) when I started. I wasn't sure how much time or money I wanted to invest in this "hobby" and that was a cheap way to get into it.

My challenge has been to build a system with few limitations that I can brew whatever I decide I want to brew, but that doesn't cost more than my house. Something I can brew on while I'm putting it together without having to wait until everything is finished, and that minimizes, (to the extent possible), spending money on equipment that I'm not going to need or that I'm going to have to upgrade in 2 months.

Not for any particular reason, but I just haven't considered No sparge BIAB. I like the idea of sparging. Like everything, I'm sure there are advantages and disadvantages.

For now my focus is simply to fine tune what I have. I've brewed quite a few batches over the last 2 1/2 years and it recently occurred to me - I've never brewed two batches, back to back, using the same equipment or the same process. I'm basically starting from square one on every batch. So rather than just brewing something and crossing my fingers, my goal is to dial in this system using the same process each time. I might even brew the same recipe each time to help narrow things down a bit.

Someone on this thread pointed out that I'm probably not getting the most out of my grain having the LHBS crush it. I had a grain mill on my wish list but it was down at the bottom. I moved it up to the next thing I buy, and then I'll go from there.

Cheers guys

 

[dyqik]

Have a look at the brewery efficiency troubleshooter page and spreadsheet on braukaiser's wiki. That might be helpful in evaluating things on your next brew.

 

[TheMadKing]

I did BIAB (partial boil) when I started. I wasn't sure how much time or money I wanted to invest in this "hobby" and that was a cheap way to get into it.

My challenge has been to build a system with few limitations that I can brew whatever I decide I want to brew, but that doesn't cost more than my house. Something I can brew on while I'm putting it together without having to wait until everything is finished, and that minimizes, (to the extent possible), spending money on equipment that I'm not going to need or that I'm going to have to upgrade in 2 months.

Not for any particular reason, but I just haven't considered No sparge BIAB. I like the idea of sparging. Like everything, I'm sure there are advantages and disadvantages.

For now my focus is simply to fine tune what I have. I've brewed quite a few batches over the last 2 1/2 years and it recently occurred to me - I've never brewed two batches, back to back, using the same equipment or the same process. I'm basically starting from square one on every batch. So rather than just brewing something and crossing my fingers, my goal is to dial in this system using the same process each time. I might even brew the same recipe each time to help narrow things down a bit.

Someone on this thread pointed out that I'm probably not getting the most out of my grain having the LHBS crush it. I had a grain mill on my wish list but it was down at the bottom. I moved it up to the next thing I buy, and then I'll go from there.

Cheers guys

BIAB really has no disadvantage that I can think of, except that you need slightly more volume in your boil kettle than with a traditional 3 vessel system, and you need some kind of pulley to get the bag out.

As priceless said: The process can be modified to incorporate anything you can do with a 3-vessel system. You can sparge, step mash, decoction mash, there's no such thing as a stuck mash, high conversion efficiency, faster lauter, fewer vessels, less cost. Any beer you can brew on a 3-vessel system you can brew with BIAB, but I would argue it takes about 1/3rd less effort and time.

 

[Gytaryst]

Have a look at the brewery efficiency troubleshooter page and spreadsheet on braukaiser's wiki. That might be helpful in evaluating things on your next brew.

Yes, I remembered you posted a link earlier:

... It's worth looking at this web page for a fuller explanation:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency ...

I finally scrolled back to find it yesterday. I meant to thank you for posting it - great content. Thanks

 

[Gytaryst]

BIAB really has no disadvantage that I can think of, except that you need slightly more volume in your boil kettle than with a traditional 3 vessel system, and you need some kind of pulley to get the bag out.

As priceless said: The process can be modified to incorporate anything you can do with a 3-vessel system. You can sparge, step mash, decoction mash, there's no such thing as a stuck mash, high conversion efficiency, faster lauter, fewer vessels, less cost. Any beer you can brew on a 3-vessel system you can brew with BIAB, but I would argue it takes about 1/3rd less effort and time.

I might give the BIAB thing a try again, (down the road). I just ordered the Cereal Killer from AIH - $99 and free shipping was hard to pass up. So I'm going to give my system a few more batches to see what it can do. I understand the argument that OG is more important than efficiency. That said, when I can consistently hit my OG with an efficiency of 72%, I'll move on to tweaking other aspects. As long as my efficiency remains in the low 60's I'm going to still obsess about it - it's a mental thing.

Cheers

 

[TheMadKing]

I might give the BIAB thing a try again, (down the road). I just ordered the Cereal Killer from AIH - $99 and free shipping was hard to pass up. So I'm going to give my system a few more batches to see what it can do. I understand the argument that OG is more important than efficiency. That said, when I can consistently hit my OG with an efficiency of 72%, I'll move on to tweaking other aspects. As long as my efficiency remains in the low 60's I'm going to still obsess about it - it's a mental thing.



Cheers

I think that's perfectly reasonable. Efficiency in the low 60's indicates a problem somewhere in your process or system that can be improved. Keep us updated on how it turns out!

 

[Dcpcooks]

I'm of the opinion that efficiency is less important than repeatability. Grain is cheap. The key to making good beer is knowing how your brewhouse performs and being able to consistently hit your numbers. You can minimize losses in your system i.e collecting the sugars in an efficient and consistent manner. You can play with false bottoms or bags to improve collection of sugars. You can play with grain crush and malt conditioning. You can minimize loss do to hoses and pumps and trub loss.

At some point you will find your happy place. In my opinion that's all that really matters. This hobby offers many rabbit holes to climb down. You can argue points about biab vs 3teir vs fly sparge vs batch sparge vs dump everything in the fermentor vs whirlpool vs well you get my [emoji121]️. The key is to find a system that is repeatable. One that allows you to take a recipe and know how it will turn out on your system. Most of that comes from experience with your set up. I would say you need to know what your systems efficiency is and that it's repeatable. Software and good measurements during the brew day will get you to that point. After that is up to you to decide how far you want to go down the rabbit hole.

It seems to me that some folks find more enjoyment on the equipment side and some folks find more enjoyment with other parts of the process. You can be a number type, a yeast type, an ingredient type a buy once cry one type or a diy type. That is the best part of this hobby...

I spend most of my time and money on temperature control from mash to fermentation. Efficiency is just a tool to help you know how you've hit your numbers. So since I know what my efficiency is and I know I can repeat it I no longer really care what my efficiency is. If my numbers are off I know something else went wrong along the way and that's what I'd spend time looking to solve.

 

[V-Fib]

I might give the BIAB thing a try again, (down the road). I just ordered the Cereal Killer from AIH - $99 and free shipping was hard to pass up. So I'm going to give my system a few more batches to see what it can do. I understand the argument that OG is more important than efficiency. That said, when I can consistently hit my OG with an efficiency of 72%, I'll move on to tweaking other aspects. As long as my efficiency remains in the low 60's I'm going to still obsess about it - it's a mental thing.

Cheers

When I got my cereal killer my efficiency increased 16% from my LHBS mill. I recommend using what ever left over grain have to make a trial batch of something and aim low on the ABV level so you don't end up with a 8.6% amber ale like I did.

The bad part of the increase in efficiency is that now all my recipes have weird grain weights. I did my best to keep them X% of each grain but it has caused things weigh out odd. Before it was all even pounds/oz so I had a basic idea of grain I had on hand. Now its 6.4 oz of this, 2.9oz of that...

 

[TheMadKing]

When I got my cereal killer my efficiency increased 16% from my LHBS mill. I recommend using what ever left over grain have to make a trial batch of something and aim low on the ABV level so you don't end up with a 8.6% amber ale like I did.



The bad part of the increase in efficiency is that now all my recipes have weird grain weights. I did my best to keep them X% of each grain but it has caused things weigh out odd. Before it was all even pounds/oz so I had a basic idea of grain I had on hand. Now its 6.4 oz of this, 2.9oz of that...

The precision of your grain measurements shouldn't be linked with your efficiency. If something is calling for 6.4 oz just round down to 6, or if it's 2.9 just round up to 3. I challenge anyone to be able to taste 0.5 oz of any malt in any beer.

Just round to the nearest oz, or nearest quarter lb (usually what I do)

But there's no such thing as an efficiency that always gives you even grain weights, low or high. Just tweak your recipes to even out the grain weights at the new efficiency.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

75/65 ~= 1.15

Multiply all of the recipes fermentable ingredients (malts and possibly unmalted grains) by 1.15 and you will have your answer as to the required malt quantities for 65% vs. 75% efficiency.

Someone on this forum once wisely stated that of all of the comments your friends will have regarding your beer, none of them are going to say "This tastes like a low efficiency beer!".

 

[Gytaryst]

... Someone on this forum once wisely stated that of all of the comments your friends will have regarding your beer, none of them are going to say "This tastes like a low efficiency beer!".

I agree to an extent.
My frustration, and original reason for starting this thread was after a disastrous brew day. Without rehashing the same ole story again, the upshot is that I brewed what was supposed to be a Belgian Quad with 21 pounds of grain, (mostly Pilsen malt), and 2 pounds of D-90 Belgian Candi syrup. It was supposed to have an OG of 1.100 and an estimated abv of 11.4%. Long story short, everything that could go wrong - did go wrong. The OG was 1.056 and the beer finished with an abv of 6.65%.

6.65% is a respectable abv - however, the beer tastes like crap. There's a sourness I can't put my finger on. It's not undrinkable, but it's not a beer you look forward to either. I'm sure the sourness has something to do with using that much grain, 2 pounds of sugar and the stepped up starter I pitched for 5 gallons of beer with a 1.056 OG.

So while it's probably true to say that a beer that was calculated for 70% efficiency but came in at 65% is nothing to get worked up about, I would argue that there are times when you can most definitely taste low efficiency.

 

[TheMadKing]

I agree to an extent.
My frustration, and original reason for starting this thread was after a disastrous brew day. Without rehashing the same ole story again, the upshot is that I brewed what was supposed to be a Belgian Quad with 21 pounds of grain, (mostly Pilsen malt), and 2 pounds of D-90 Belgian Candi syrup. It was supposed to have an OG of 1.100 and an estimated abv of 11.4%. Long story short, everything that could go wrong - did go wrong. The OG was 1.056 and the beer finished with an abv of 6.65%.

6.65% is a respectable abv - however, the beer tastes like crap. There's a sourness I can't put my finger on. It's not undrinkable, but it's not a beer you look forward to either. I'm sure the sourness has something to do with using that much grain, 2 pounds of sugar and the stepped up starter I pitched for 5 gallons of beer with a 1.056 OG.

So while it's probably true to say that a beer that was calculated for 70% efficiency but came in at 65% is nothing to get worked up about, I would argue that there are times when you can most definitely taste low efficiency.

New info! A couple things on this:

Your efficiency will ALWAYS be low for a large grain bill at the homebrew scale. Mid-60's is respectable for a 20+lb grain bill. The larger amount of grain holds onto more wort and reduces the effectiveness of sparging in our smaller vessels.

HOWEVER. Something is very wrong with your numbers. If you calculated 1.100 OG at 75% efficiency, then drop your efficiency to 65% your OG should only drop to 1.089. I'm sorry to say you have a bad measurement somewhere.

Either your hydrometer reading was off, and your OG is much higher, or your efficiency was closer to 35% (which is what's required to drop your OG to 1.056). An efficiency that low indicates something seriously wrong with your mashing process.

 

[Gytaryst]

... Either your hydrometer reading was off, and your OG is much higher, or your efficiency was closer to 35% (which is what's required to drop your OG to 1.056). An efficiency that low indicates something seriously wrong with your mashing process.

Yes. It was an ugly day all around. Without rehashing the whole ugly story, I was using a new mash tun for the first time. I had been using a 10 gallon Igloo with a bazooka screen - for this brew I switched to a bottom drain keggle. I couldn't make my mind up between a false bottom or "The Brew Bag", so at the last minute I just ordered some X-Large brew bag off Amazon for $8. I figured if I only got 1 brew out of it at least I'd have a better idea if I wanted to by "The Brew Bag" or a false bottom. The $8 bag appeared to be plenty big enough for a keggle; the description said it was 22" x 26". It arrived and I threw it aside until brew day. Brew day came and I got all my water mixed up and strike water heated in the MLT. Time to dough-in, so I opened up the package with the bag. It was 22" x 26" just like they said - unfortunately it was 26" W and only 22" tall. Trying to hold it open and get 21 pounds of grain into it was a chore. When the grain absorbed water it pretty much filled the bag to capacity. There was no way to stir it without knocking grain out into the strike water - but I did the best I could. I kind of got it pulled up as best I could with one hand, and tied some butchers twine around it to try and hold the grains is while it mashed.
To make a long story short - it wasn't the ideal day to be brewing anyway but I had bought the ingredients over a week before and the starter had been sitting in the fridge for a week - I didn't want to wait much longer - and then the mash/bag thing happened and I thought seriously, (several times) of just dumping everything and calling it quits. But I had a lot of grain invested. Just the 2 pounds of candi sugar alone was like $17 or $18, (not that I couldn't have stored that for awhile).

When the long, frustrating, miserable, annoying brew day finally came to a close I checked my OG and it was 1.056. The measurement wasn't off. 35% efficiency sounds about right.

The beer itself is the closest I've come to a drain pour. It's not good. There's a slight sourness that I can't put my finger on. I absolutely love Belgian beers but I'll admit some of the Belgian yeasts can be a little "barn yardy" smelling. This particular batch seems to have taken all the unpleasant qualities of Belgian yeast where aroma is concerned, and magnified them. The sour isn't really overpowering, (like a sour beer). It's there just enough to detract from any other flavors or notes that might otherwise come thru.

I ended up with exactly 48 - 12oz bottles of the stuff. I probably still have 30 or so left. Slowly but surely I'm working my way thru it. Age doesn't seem to help much

 

[TheMadKing]

Yes. It was an ugly day all around. Without rehashing the whole ugly story, I was using a new mash tun for the first time. I had been using a 10 gallon Igloo with a bazooka screen - for this brew I switched to a bottom drain keggle. I couldn't make my mind up between a false bottom or "The Brew Bag", so at the last minute I just ordered some X-Large brew bag off Amazon for $8. I figured if I only got 1 brew out of it at least I'd have a better idea if I wanted to by "The Brew Bag" or a false bottom. The $8 bag appeared to be plenty big enough for a keggle; the description said it was 22" x 26". It arrived and I threw it aside until brew day. Brew day came and I got all my water mixed up and strike water heated in the MLT. Time to dough-in, so I opened up the package with the bag. It was 22" x 26" just like they said - unfortunately it was 26" W and only 22" tall. Trying to hold it open and get 21 pounds of grain into it was a chore. When the grain absorbed water it pretty much filled the bag to capacity. There was no way to stir it without knocking grain out into the strike water - but I did the best I could. I kind of got it pulled up as best I could with one hand, and tied some butchers twine around it to try and hold the grains is while it mashed.

To make a long story short - it wasn't the ideal day to be brewing anyway but I had bought the ingredients over a week before and the starter had been sitting in the fridge for a week - I didn't want to wait much longer - and then the mash/bag thing happened and I thought seriously, (several times) of just dumping everything and calling it quits. But I had a lot of grain invested. Just the 2 pounds of candi sugar alone was like $17 or $18, (not that I couldn't have stored that for awhile).



When the long, frustrating, miserable, annoying brew day finally came to a close I checked my OG and it was 1.056. The measurement wasn't off. 35% efficiency sounds about right.



The beer itself is the closest I've come to a drain pour. It's not good. There's a slight sourness that I can't put my finger on. I absolutely love Belgian beers but I'll admit some of the Belgian yeasts can be a little "barn yardy" smelling. This particular batch seems to have taken all the unpleasant qualities of Belgian yeast where aroma is concerned, and magnified them. The sour isn't really overpowering, (like a sour beer). It's there just enough to detract from any other flavors or notes that might otherwise come thru.



I ended up with exactly 48 - 12oz bottles of the stuff. I probably still have 30 or so left. Slowly but surely I'm working my way thru it. Age doesn't seem to help much

Ouch, well your low efficiency that day was because you bundled the grain up and compressed it in the mash, so the mash water didn't have equal access to all the grain particles. If your bag fits correctly, you just have to fold it down over the rim of your kettle and the grain floats loose inside it during the mash, with you stirring occasionally.

As for the sour flavor, I have my doubts that it's caused by your mashing issues. The flavor you're describing sounds like Belgian yeast fermented too cool, or an infection of some sort. Sorry to hear you had such a bad brew day though!

I very much hope your new mill improves things. I have the same one and it instantly evened out my efficiency and made it consistent batch to batch. Let us know how it goes!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Did your grist have sufficient diastatic enzyme power to convert the starches into sugars? What was your grain bill?

 

[TheMadKing]

Did your grist have sufficient diastatic enzyme power to convert the starches into sugars? What was your grain bill?

He said that his recipe was mostly pilsen in an earlier post, so that's not the issue

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

The precision of your grain measurements shouldn't be linked with your efficiency. If something is calling for 6.4 oz just round down to 6, or if it's 2.9 just round up to 3. I challenge anyone to be able to taste 0.5 oz of any malt in any beer.

Just round to the nearest oz, or nearest quarter lb (usually what I do)

But there's no such thing as an efficiency that always gives you even grain weights, low or high. Just tweak your recipes to even out the grain weights at the new efficiency.

I started looking at the grain bill in terms of percentages years ago, using granular increments of ~0.25 lb. when adding the grain to any recipe. Some hundreds of gallons of beer later, no one's ever noticed a difference, including me.