Efficiency Complaint Department

[sbsmann]

Here we go. I've done close to a dozen AG batches and am very comfortable brewing and am always happy with by beers (except for one but that I think was some weird allergy thing). Anyway, my efficiency is always kinda sucky. I'm always in the low 60% range and have never sniffed 70% except the one time I got 70% with double crushed grain and BIAB. Did my first NEIPA AG this weekend and got a measly 62%.

My homebrew store says their mill is set to 1.040 which may or may not be the main reason I can't hit my numbers. That's really the only thing I can think of because everything else I did went pretty well. I hit my temp & volume numbers right on (based on Beersmith) and the only thing that wasn't perfect was my mash-in cooler temp rest dropped from 152 to 146 after the 60 minute rest. Here is a summary of what I did:

10.5 lbs Rahr Premium Pilsner malt
1.5 Flaked Oats
1.5 Rahr White Wheat Malt

Recipe was from Northern Brewer and it listed an OG of 1.064 (which I think is around 70% for this grain bill).

I mashed with 4.6 gallons of water. After dough-in I was at the 152-153 that the recipe called for and I let it sit for 60 minutes in my 10 gallon round igloo cooler. After 60' I checked the temp and it fell to 146 (lower than expected). Not sure if that would kill efficiency, but guessing no. I vorlauffed a bit until clear and then drained down to about an inch or two from the grain bed before fly sparging for 25 minutes with 170 degree water. First batch of 4 gallons was at 1.071 which seemed good. My preboil amount was to be 7.25 gallons so I continued sparging to collect another 3.25 gallons. That batch came out with a gravity of 1.030 and seemed a bit lower than I would have liked, but I really couldn't control that. So I ended up with my 7.25 gallons at a combined 1.051. The recipe called for an OG of 1.064 which I always thought was post boil, but maybe not? Whether pre or post boil, I was not even close. After my 65 minute boil, my gravity was 1.056. I'm sure the beer will be fine, but I just can't figure out where my problems exist.

So, obviously an easy answer to all of this is grain crush, but outside of that, where could could I be going wrong and how can I get something closer to the minimum 70% that everyone else gets so easily? Does it seem like there is something I did wrong with water volumes or sparging that would cause such low efficiency? It seems if I had stopped short of my 7.25 gallon total (maybe something like 6 gallons), I would have been closer to 70% but obviously I my goal was 7.25 gallons for my system and the boil. Does anything stand out as being horribly wrong? Any ideas are always appreciated.

 

[bleme]

I'm betting your wheat was barely cracked (if at all) with a mill set at 40, and your barley wasn't much better.

I'm also guessing that your fly sparge is getting significant channeling. While a perfect fly sparge will get better efficiency, it is also the easiest to fail. Try doing a batch sparge instead and see what happens.

The only other possibility I see is possible pH problems. If the first two suggestions don't fix you up, you should probably find a way to measure pH.

 

[kevin58]

.040 is a very large gap imo. The largest I go on mine is .036 to .038. When I do BIAB I will dial it down to .022 to .025. I would recommend biting the bullet and buying your own grain mill.

That being said, efficiency is not a race. As long as you know what you are getting you can adjust your grain bill to reach your desired OG.

So in the end it comes down to how you pay... for a little more grain per batch? Or on a grain mill?

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

I'm in about the same boat (BIAB). I've tried crushing my own grain, ordering pre-crushed, adjusting my water (which has made much better beer), watching mash temps, doing mash outs. Basically going to get between 63-66% and I've accepted that.

 

[sbsmann]

It does appear that my next step should be to eliminate the crush issue. Even if my shop has it set at 1.040 (and I suppose it could be set even wider) it seems that is too coarse. Maybe a mini crush machine is in my future!

 

[str1p3s]

Crush is definitely your main culprit. I used to get 60-70% until I started double crushing at my LHBS and now I get 80-85%. I fly sparge and I set the flow rate to last for 45-60 minutes. I wonder if that might contribute a bit as well.

 

[sbsmann]

Crush is definitely your main culprit. I used to get 60-70% until I started double crushing at my LHBS and now I get 80-85%. I fly sparge and I set the flow rate to last for 45-60 minutes. I wonder if that might contribute a bit as well.

Wow, you double crush for all-grain and have no issues with stuck sparges? I thought about trying that, but seemed pretty risky? Or maybe I'm just overly paranoid?

 

[str1p3s]

Overly paranoid I've never had a stuck sparge. Well, except when I forgot to put my filter braid in the MT... different story.

 

[schematix]

I've had 100% conversion all the way from 0.032 to 0.040. It has less to do with the crush than things like temperature, agitation (preferably recirculation, but stirring can work too), and pH.

With a single infusion at 152 and no additional steps i'd expect something in the neighborhood of 85% conversion efficiency. Most likely you aren't getting hot enough to gelatinize all of the starch. I normally get the last 10% or so between 162F and 172F.

I'd check your first wort gravity and see how much conversion you are hitting. That'll tell you if you are having a mash issue, or a lautering issue.

 

[mongoose33]

I've had 100% conversion all the way from 0.032 to 0.040. It has less to do with the crush than things like temperature, agitation (preferably recirculation, but stirring can work too), and pH.

With a single infusion at 152 and no additional steps i'd expect something in the neighborhood of 85% conversion efficiency. Most likely you aren't getting hot enough to gelatinize all of the starch. I normally get the last 10% or so between 162F and 172F.

I'd check your first wort gravity and see how much conversion you are hitting. That'll tell you if you are having a mash issue, or a lautering issue.

This^

I stir at 15- and 30-minutes. The first time I did that, my efficiency shot up. I also think that if OP isn't addressing water issues, he probably has one. pH at least.

I used to be more convinced that crush matters but I think that's mostly for speed. I used to do .020 gap for BIAB with a Barley Crusher, but when I went to my 3-roller mill, I upped the gap to .035.

Conversion takes longer, but it gets there. In addition to the above, I'd also consider extending the mash to 75 minutes.

 

[sbsmann]

I've had 100% conversion all the way from 0.032 to 0.040. It has less to do with the crush than things like temperature, agitation (preferably recirculation, but stirring can work too), and pH.

With a single infusion at 152 and no additional steps i'd expect something in the neighborhood of 85% conversion efficiency. Most likely you aren't getting hot enough to gelatinize all of the starch. I normally get the last 10% or so between 162F and 172F.

I'd check your first wort gravity and see how much conversion you are hitting. That'll tell you if you are having a mash issue, or a lautering issue.

So I didn't do any type of mash-out and went right to the sparge after the sachh rest. Are you saying just getting the temp up to 170 or so before sparging (like a mash-out) would help with efficiency?

 

[schematix]

So I didn't do any type of mash-out and went right to the sparge after the sachh rest. Are you saying just getting the temp up to 170 or so before sparging (like a mash-out) would help with efficiency?

It does a lot more than help efficiency, but in general yes. There is always a small amount of starch granules that don't burst at the lower temperatures. It also varies by lot.

I've been step mashing for a while now and someone who is a much better brewer than me told me about a technique where you measure your mash gravity at the end of each rest. You can learn what temperature rests you need by seeing what is happening at each step. For example, on a recent batch i did a 40 minute rest at 146F. I then raised to 152F. After 10 minutes at 152F my gravity didn't increase at all over my rest at 146. However, when i went to 162 for 30 minutes i got another 4 points, and after 10 minutes at 172 i got yet another 2 points.

I've also seen some where at 144F i had barely any conversion because the gel temp was reallly high. In that case subsequent rests at 148 and 152 actually yielded a lot.

 

[Smellyglove]

I second what schematix above here wrote. You get get more extract the higher the temperature. But the higher the temp the less fermentable the wort will end up. So you have to balance it. Either a step mash with low beta-temps and an alpha temp to yield the most extract, or just one step in between and get sort of an average when it comes to yield and fermentability. I at least recommend a mash out since that too will yield you a few points.

For instance I know that when I'm 4-5-ish points away from target when doing a step mash where the first saccharification rest is at 63 (i measure after that rest), then I'm all good since I'll get those points after the alpha-rest and on it's way to mash out. This is for an average 1.052 beer. The bigger the beer the more points will be yielded at elevated temperatures, just by stepping by the temps between saccharification and mashout, even if not doing an alpha-rest.

 

[thekraken]

My efficiency shot up when I stopped using tap water and staring building my water from RO. Crush and re-circulation made little difference. If you want to try that it's very easy to start with the water primer.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Since your wheat doesn't have a hull it is smaller. If you crush it with barley it's just sliding right on through and not getting crushed.

I crush wheat separate from the barley. Don't forget to add some rice hulls when you use wheat.

As mentioned above...STIRRING really helps a lot. I stir mine every 15 mins during the 60 min mash. You also might want to try upping it to a 75 min mash.

 

[chickypad]

I think it would help to measure your first runnings and actually see if it is your conversion, your lautering, or both. Then you can follow the advice everyone has given you above to target the problem areas. With your first wort gravity and your mash thickness you can use the table on Kai's page below to check your conversion, it should be 95% or better.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency

 

[doug293cz]

I think it would help to measure your first runnings and actually see if it is your conversion, your lautering, or both. Then you can follow the advice everyone has given you above to target the problem areas. With your first wort gravity and your mash thickness you can use the table on Kai's page below to check your conversion, it should be 95% or better.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency

Yes to this.

Brew on

 

[couchsending]

.040 should be totally fine for Barley, no need to go smaller.

Stirring will help a lot, just be gentle..
Minimal aeration

Wheat needs to be milled tighter for sure.

Optimal PH and water adjustments should help as well.

 

[stodds]

Of which efficiency do you speak? Brewhouse Efficiency or Mash Efficiency. I'm not sure I can tell based on what you've written. Since you are using beersmith, if you plug in your post mash gravity, and your measured pre-boil volume, you'll get your mash efficiency.

What is your batch size? 7.25 gal boil volume seems like a lot for a 5-gallon batch. It is even a little high for a 5.5-gallon batch. Of course, it really depends on your equipment. But, here is where I had issues. In my equipment setup, I put in more waste (trub loss, cooling loss, mash tun void, boil off, etc.) than I really had. I always ended up with more in my fermenter than was planned -- and it was all at a lower O.G. than planned as well.

Dialing in my numbers for my volumes certainly helped me hit numbers.

Of course, I now have my own cheap roller mill and now I'm surpassing the numbers. There is certainly merit to the crush idea! I only put this additional information out there for your consideration. I hope it is in some way helpful.

 

[Sailingeric]

I was having similar issues and I got a Cereal Killer for $100. Saw a good 10% bump first time out with it.

 

[sbsmann]

Of which efficiency do you speak? Brewhouse Efficiency or Mash Efficiency. I'm not sure I can tell based on what you've written. Since you are using beersmith, if you plug in your post mash gravity, and your measured pre-boil volume, you'll get your mash efficiency.

What is your batch size? 7.25 gal boil volume seems like a lot for a 5-gallon batch. It is even a little high for a 5.5-gallon batch. Of course, it really depends on your equipment. But, here is where I had issues. In my equipment setup, I put in more waste (trub loss, cooling loss, mash tun void, boil off, etc.) than I really had. I always ended up with more in my fermenter than was planned -- and it was all at a lower O.G. than planned as well.

Dialing in my numbers for my volumes certainly helped me hit numbers.

Of course, I now have my own cheap roller mill and now I'm surpassing the numbers. There is certainly merit to the crush idea! I only put this additional information out there for your consideration. I hope it is in some way helpful.

I always thought 7.25 seemed like a lot as well. However, I boil of exactly 1 gallon in 60 minutes. I also account for about .25 gallon wort shrinkage. And lastly, I have about 1 gallon dead space in my brew kettle that is typically filled with mostly sludge material from the cold/hot break that I don't really want going in my carboy. I feel like my water volume numbers are pretty good, but somewhere else I seem to be messing up. The difference between my 1.056 post boil gravity and the 1.064 at 70% efficiency is just too big for my liking!

 

[catdaddy66]

My lhbs is breaking in a new mill and the last two batches have had a bit lower efficiency on both of them. I will ask for a bit finer crush or maybe run it thru a second time.

I have a big beer (Belgian golden strong) to brew this weekend and need a better crush to hit my numbers.

 

[Morrey]

Since your wheat doesn't have a hull it is smaller. If you crush it with barley it's just sliding right on through and not getting crushed.

I crush wheat separate from the barley. Don't forget to add some rice hulls when you use wheat.

As mentioned above...STIRRING really helps a lot. I stir mine every 15 mins during the 60 min mash. You also might want to try upping it to a 75 min mash.

This^^^ I know this is an extreme case and basically a luxury, but I ended up with 2 grain mills. One mill is an MM3 and I have it motorized with a dedicated system. The other is a hand drill powered Kegco 3 roller mill that I sold (to get the MM3) and ended up repossessing since the fellow never paid me.

Point of the story and as @homebrewer_99 posts, anytime I ground wheat or rye mixed with barley malts, I'd see a decided drop in efficiency. The wheat/rye kernels are smaller and harder thusly don't get crushed very well if the mill is set properly for barley.

I started separating wheat and grinding it separately on the Kegco set tighter than the MM3 which is set for barley. Sure I could tinker with the settings which is what I'd do with only one mill, but the point is that one mill gap setting is really not very universal. Once I started grinding separately with the appropriate mill gap, efficiency went right back to the sweet spot.

 

[Jaybird]

1 thing, a very simple thing I would like to add to all the great comments and suggestions here is: don't be afraid to stir the TOP of your mash gently when you fly sparge. I have a stainless stir wand (it's a flat stainless bar about 12" long 1/2" wide about 3/32 thick) I made years ago for when I was doing yeast harvesting and I will stick that down into the mash about 3-4 inches and gently stir/move around the top of the mash. I think it helps get the sparge water moving in different directions in the mash and has helped my EFF several points.

to be honest though if your LHBS has the mill set at .040 I would ask them WHY? Ask them to tighten it up to a more reasonable industry standard (.034 or close) not sure why they would mind or not be willing.

Cheers
Jay

 

[sbsmann]

And how about efficiency? Northern Brewer lists the OG of this all grain kit at 1.064. What is the consensus on which gravity they are quoting? Conversion, pre-boil, ending kettle or brewhouse efficiency? Because I can calculate all three for me, but I want to make sure I know exactly what they are quoting.

 

[bleme]

They would be quoting the gravity in the fermentor but with your big dead space loss, it is going to be a struggle to get there.

 

[Smellyglove]

OG is finished wort. No matter if you have 99% losses because of trub or 1% loss to trub. Dead space and losses doesn't mean anything to OG.

 

[bleme]

OG is finished wort. No matter if you have 99% losses because of trub or 1% loss to trub. Dead space and losses doesn't mean anything to OG.

It does if you added an extra gallon of water so you still get 5 gallons into the fermentor.

 

[Smellyglove]

It does if you added an extra gallon of water so you still get 5 gallons into the fermentor.

No, the OG is the OG. No matter what happens before, or how you reach it. It's the Original Gravity. If you add water to dillute the SG, the new SG will be the OG.

 

[bleme]

Northern Brewer estimates the OG on their kit to be 1.064 for 5 gallons. Since the OP is basically making a 6 gallon batch and only putting 5 into the fermentor, his OG is going to be 1.53 instead.