eBIAB recirculating system upgrade assistance

[specialkayme]

I posted this in the electric brewing section, but didn't get any takers. Maybe it belonged here instead.

I currently use a Spike 15g single vessel eBIAB set up with a Nylon Brew-in-a-Bag and a 5,500 ULWD heating element, and a Still Dragon controller. I still have two extra tri-clover ports on the kettle that "haven't been spoken for yet" during the mash (the intention was to have the bottom one house a thermometer and the top house a recirculating port of sorts, or something like that if I decided to expand in the future), although I use the top port with a steamslayer (love it!) during the boil.

Problem: I can't regulate the mash temp. I'm losing 10-15 degrees in an hour mash. I've tried insulating, I've tried wrapping the entire kettle in a sleeping bag, I've tried putting the sleeping bag in the dryer to prewarm it before wrapping it up, and none of it matters. The temp loss is making me somewhat frustrated, and I want to fix the issue. I'm tired of adding more duct tape to patch a problem (more insulation) and want a better control over the temp. I think a temp controlled recirculating system would be best. And yet, I don't know what I'm doing in designing a better system.

So a few questions:

1. I know I need a pump to recirculate the wort. Will any pump do? Or this one? https://www.morebeer.com/products/riptide-brewing-pump-blichmann-engineering.html

2. Can I continue to use the nylon bag? I know I can't have it sit directly on the heating element. So should I just get some wire to cover the heating element? Or is a false bottom better? Or would a basket to replace the nylon bag be better?

3. I think I'll need a better controler to dial in the temp while it's recirculating. Is a purchased controller the best route (like this: https://www.ssbrewtech.com/collections/ebrewing-1v/products/econtroller-1v), or converting my current still dragon with a pid controller a better option?

I only want to "cry once." While I won't say price is no option, I don't want to buy cheap now and upgrade later.

So any help?

 

[doug293cz]

1. The Riptide is a good pump. There are also other, less expensive pumps that are sold for brewing use. You want to get one that is certified food safe, and has magnetic drive (so you don't have to worry about leaky seals.)

2. You can use the bag (most folks use polyester voile instead of nylon) with a false bottom, or switch to a mesh basket.

3. You can't upgrade the StillDragon to PID control. You can DIY a control panel for about 1/2 the cost of a pre-built.

Brew on

 

[afro_lou]

Doug, of course, nailed it. Listen to him.


So, in my experience, recirculating isn’t needed, as long as you have the right bits of gear. I started out in the same line of thinking: I need to recirculate to control my mash temps. First thought was repurposing a RIMS setup I have to control temps.
Nah, too much work/don’t have the controller to deal with it.
Second thought: I’ll just recirculate during the mash, but I’ll be safe and get a false bottom from Bobby to keep the bag off the element.
Did that, but ran my pump full throttle and managed to create enough of a vacuum to warp the false bottom and suck my Wilser bag through the grate and onto the element, burning a hole in the bag/ripping a bunch of holes in the bag in the process. That was fun to clean up.
Now, I just put the bag on top of the false bottom and let the temp controller keep things steady. Even if you don’t have a PID controller, you can still add heat and stir up the mash until things stabilize, then kill the element.

Basically, what I’m saying is: be careful with the pump. If you can just fire the element and stir the mash, you’ll stabilize just fine.

 

[specialkayme]

1. The Riptide is a good pump. There are also other, less expensive pumps that are sold for brewing use. You want to get one that is certified food safe, and has magnetic drive (so you don't have to worry about leaky seals.)

ran my pump full throttle and managed to create enough of a vacuum to warp the false bottom and suck my Wilser bag through the grate and onto the element, burning a hole in the bag/ripping a bunch of holes in the bag in the process.

My understanding is the Riptide came with a built in flow valve, which should reduce the chance of me causing issues with the pump running full throttle, correct?

I also have a ball valve set up in front of the pump. That should work fine, right? (as in I don't need a ball valve behind the pump to restrict the flow rate, correct?).

2. You can use the bag (most folks use polyester voile instead of nylon) with a false bottom, or switch to a mesh basket.

Which would you recommend (understanding I already have the bag).

I don't mind getting a mesh basket made, but it's $250 that if I could save (along with 5 weeks), I sure would like to. But I'd also like to avoid using a false bottom from Bobby at $50, only to use it for a few brews and then switch to a basket anyway.

3. You can't upgrade the StillDragon to PID control. You can DIY a control panel for about 1/2 the cost of a pre-built.

The StillDragon was a little bit of a challenge for me to build, to be honest. I got through it though, obviously. Soldering and crimping wires isn't my strong suit. Would you advise me to DIY understanding my "limitations"? Either way, is there a direction you'd recommend going (i.e. a brand you think is a good move to go down)?

Even if you don’t have a PID controller, you can still add heat and stir up the mash until things stabilize, then kill the element.

Basically, what I’m saying is: be careful with the pump. If you can just fire the element and stir the mash, you’ll stabilize just fine.

I'm planning to get the pump to do a whirlpool during chilling, so having it to recirculate is just an added bonus for me. Plus I can do more CIP. But thanks for the heads up.

I'm also trying to avoid firing the element and stirring. I have a 2 year old running around, and time is sometimes a limitation. I can usually set aside 5 hours or so of brewing in a day, that isn't the issue, but being able to walk away from the kettle for 20, 30, or 60 min is a big advantage. Being stuck to a kettle watching a thermometer every 5 min, then turning the element on and stirring, then tweeking with the knobs while I watch the thermometer is a perfect opportunity for a 2 year old to get into something she shouldn't be. But if I can plug it, set it, and be in the same area, and come back 60 min later, that will help significantly.

 

[doug293cz]

My understanding is the Riptide came with a built in flow valve, which should reduce the chance of me causing issues with the pump running full throttle, correct?

Yes, the RipTide comes with a flow control valve. It is a linear control valve, which is much better for fine tuning flow than a ball valve (which is highly non-linear.)

I also have a ball valve set up in front of the pump. That should work fine, right? (as in I don't need a ball valve behind the pump to restrict the flow rate, correct?).

Never, never, NEVER use a valve to restrict flow into a pump. This can cause the pump to cavitate, which will eventually damage the pump. Pump flow must always be throttled on the output side.

Which would you recommend (understanding I already have the bag).

The temp resistance of polyester and nylon are similar (IIRC) so either will work. It's more about the mesh size of the weave. Not sure if there is a mechanical durability difference.

I don't mind getting a mesh basket made, but it's $250 that if I could save (along with 5 weeks), I sure would like to. But I'd also like to avoid using a false bottom from Bobby at $50, only to use it for a few brews and then switch to a basket anyway.

A bag on a FB is more sensitive to "sticking" if the flow rates are too high, which is why many brewers have switched to the mesh baskets. Some even use solid sided (or partially solid sided) baskets so that recirc flow does not short circuit the grain bed (less of an issue with bags that conform to the sides of the vessel.) Crush size affects the max workable flow rate, so many BIAB'ers who recirc have to crush more coarsely than ordinary BIAB.

Sorry I can't give you a definitive answer.

The StillDragon was a little bit of a challenge for me to build, to be honest. I got through it though, obviously. Soldering and crimping wires isn't my strong suit. Would you advise me to DIY understanding my "limitations"? Either way, is there a direction you'd recommend going (i.e. a brand you think is a good move to go down)?

If the StillDragon was a challenge, I would recommend against trying to DIY a more complicated controller (unless you have a friend with suitable skills to help you out.) The Auber Cube is a good choice, or any other control panel built around an Auber EZBoil. EZBoils usually do no require any tuning, which sometimes gives people fits with PID's. Just make sure the controller design has a mechanical disconnect switch/relay to remove voltage from the load, rather than depending on the SSR to never fail (the StillDragon is deficient in this regard, which is why I don't recommend it.)

I'm planning to get the pump to do a whirlpool during chilling, so having it to recirculate is just an added bonus for me. Plus I can do more CIP. But thanks for the heads up.

I'm also trying to avoid firing the element and stirring. I have a 2 year old running around, and time is sometimes a limitation. I can usually set aside 5 hours or so of brewing in a day, that isn't the issue, but being able to walk away from the kettle for 20, 30, or 60 min is a big advantage. Being stuck to a kettle watching a thermometer every 5 min, then turning the element on and stirring, then tweeking with the knobs while I watch the thermometer is a perfect opportunity for a 2 year old to get into something she shouldn't be. But if I can plug it, set it, and be in the same area, and come back 60 min later, that will help significantly.

You don't have to add heat or recirculate with the pump during the mash, if your vessel is sufficiently well insulated. A 4 - 5°F temp drop during the mash will not adversely impact your beer. Not heating/recirculating during the mash can help you avoid some cost, complexity, and hassle. You still get to use the pump to whirlpool, drive a counterflow chiller, and transfer the wort.

Brew on

 

[specialkayme]

Never, never, NEVER use a valve to restrict flow into a pump.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll play with the pump to start with, and if I need to order a second ball valve I will. Hopefully I won't though.

A bag on a FB is more sensitive to "sticking" if the flow rates are too high, which is why many brewers have switched to the mesh baskets. Some even use solid sided (or partially solid sided) baskets so that recirc flow does not short circuit the grain bed (less of an issue with bags that conform to the sides of the vessel.) Crush size affects the max workable flow rate, so many BIAB'ers who recirc have to crush more coarsely than ordinary BIAB.

Sorry I can't give you a definitive answer.

With many of these things, sometimes there isn't an "answer."

I'm not really too worried about maxing out a flow rate during the mash. I'm really just trying to make it so that I don't have one central area that has significantly more heat than another area. So "some" flow is important.

I may think about it a bit though (bag vs basket).

The Auber Cube is a good choice, or any other control panel built around an Auber EZBoil.

Thanks for the suggestion. Not cheap, but I guess that's the point

I'm generally not a fan of buying something I can build. But realistically speaking, after I get all the extra cables and tools needed to install it properly, and spending 40 hours watching youtube videos on how to do it and not electrify myself, and then probably breaking something and having to replace the broken part, I'd probably be better off buying the Cube in the end. Assuming I could have built it.

You don't have to add heat or recirculate with the pump during the mash, if your vessel is sufficiently well insulated. A 4 - 5°F temp drop during the mash will not adversely impact your beer.

If I were losing 4-5 degrees during the mash, I wouldn't be concerned. But last mash dropped from 152.2 degrees to 144.2 degrees in 60 min. That is with the bottom insulated, and wrapped in a sleeping bag that was pre-warmed in the dryer.

I've tried wrapping with multiple blankets and all kinds of other things, but I still lose 8 degrees in an hour. Another one went from 158 to 143 in 90 min, and another went from 150 to 138 in 60 min. I can live with 4-5 degrees, but 8-12 isn't going to work for me, and I'm tired of trying to insulate. I'm also not a fan of the "lift and heat" method (tried that twice, and it just doesn't suit my needs). I have some deadspace in the kettle, and I know that's contributing to my heat loss, but I decided I'd rather try and heat and recirculate than try and find some dummy space to fill the void (and even at that point, it still may not work well).

Thank you for the detailed responses!

 

[doug293cz]

...

If I were losing 4-5 degrees during the mash, I wouldn't be concerned. But last mash dropped from 152.2 degrees to 144.2 degrees in 60 min. That is with the bottom insulated, and wrapped in a sleeping bag that was pre-warmed in the dryer.

I've tried wrapping with multiple blankets and all kinds of other things, but I still lose 8 degrees in an hour. Another one went from 158 to 143 in 90 min, and another went from 150 to 138 in 60 min. I can live with 4-5 degrees, but 8-12 isn't going to work for me, and I'm tired of trying to insulate. I'm also not a fan of the "lift and heat" method (tried that twice, and it just doesn't suit my needs). I have some deadspace in the kettle, and I know that's contributing to my heat loss, but I decided I'd rather try and heat and recirculate than try and find some dummy space to fill the void (and even at that point, it still may not work well).

Thank you for the detailed responses!

Yeah, 8 - 12 degrees is excessive. Couple of questions:

1. Are you covering your kettle during the mash? Leaving it uncovered will greatly increase heat loss.
2. Are you stirring aggressively after mash in to make sure everything is in temp equilibrium at the start of the mash, before you take your initial temp reading?

Brew on

 

[specialkayme]

Are you covering your kettle during the mash? Leaving it uncovered will greatly increase heat loss.

Covered, yes. And insulated on the bottom. And then wrapped in a sleeping bag.

Are you stirring aggressively after mash in to make sure everything is in temp equilibrium at the start of the mash, before you take your initial temp reading?

Yes. I put about 1/3rd the grain in and aggressively stir and shake to mash in. Then repeat for the next third. Then repeat for the last third. I then aggressively work the wort for about 2 min or so mixing it up. Then I take my initial temp reading.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I'd personally keep with the biab theme of a simpler method and just stir while applying heat as required. I'm assuming that you probably mill very fine and as others have noted your likely to compact the grain bed with the pump on anything but the lowest flowrate. Cheers

 

[wilserbrewer]

I'd personally keep with the biab theme of a simpler method
Cheers

Agreed many times!

While your upset and unsatisfied with your ability to maintain mash temps, how have your beers been turning out?

FG? Efficiency?

You could try and make a mash cap to keep some heat in your mash...something as simple as a couple layers of aluminum foil crimped crumpled together to fit your kettle inner diameter and floated on top of your mash.

You could also try and keep your element on at a very low setting for a period of time, or perhaps the whole time...thinking 1-2% idk worth a try...That may combat heat loss and not scorch the bag or mash.

Or refire your element and stir constantly mid mash to get you back to target temp.

Or lastly, stop taking a temp at the end of your mash period...can you prove it makes a discernible difference in the end product.

I would either try and simply compensate for your shortcomings or ignore them if the finished product wasn’t suffering... jmo

Throwing more bells and whistles and money at the problem may not improve your lifestyle or beer, and could further complicate your brewing process, cleaning maintaining set up and break down.

Are you taking your temps after a good stir of the mash, or just taking temp of the top wort?

I wouldn’t bother adding grain and stirring a third at a time, add all the grain and stir immediately breaking any clumps, done much easier ime....

 

[specialkayme]

While your upset and unsatisfied with your ability to maintain mash temps, how have your beers been turning out?

Overall the beers have been fine. I haven't been dissatisfied with them. Which is why I've gone as long as I have without further fixing the issue. The problem is I can't fine tune issues that I perceive with the beers. If the beer dried out a little too much, I can't really raise the mash temp much. Or if it didn't dry out, I don't have the ability to lower the mash temp much. If I start at 152 degrees and end at 144 degrees, what adjustment would I make if I wanted it to dry out more? I can start at 148 degrees, but I'll end up dropping below the range the starches convert.

It's nitpicking, for sure. But its me trying to get a more consistent, more repeatable beer.

FG? Efficiency?

Somewhat all over the place. Most FG was 1.006-1.018. BHE is anywhere between 90% and 56%.

You could try and make a mash cap to keep some heat in your mash...something as simple as a couple layers of aluminum foil crimped crumpled together to fit your kettle inner diameter and floated on top of your mash.

This is exactly what I don't want to do.

I start losing temps, so I wrap it in a blanket. That doesn't work. So I upgrade to a sleeping bag. That doesn't work. So I add more insulation to the bottom and wrap in a sleeping bag. That doesn't work. So I preheat the sleeping bag. That doesn't work.

I'm tired of searching around the house looking for something that I can make shift and throw together in the hopes that it'll work. Will reflextix work? Maybe. Maybe I need reflextix and a sleeping bag and a blanket and Styrofoam thrown in the headspace with tin foil and a portable heater blowing on the side . . . . There comes a point where you're tired of using toothpicks and duct tape.

You could also try and keep your element on at a very low setting for a period of time, or perhaps the whole time...thinking 1-2% idk worth a try...That may combat heat loss and not scorch the bag or mash.

I tried that too. I initially thought I could get away with something like 5% power. I forget the numbers, but if I remember right I had to keep it at around 30% power in order to maintain a temp with just wanter and no sleeping bag. That much power is too risky to me, and I might end up burning the bag.

Or refire your element and stir constantly mid mash to get you back to target temp.

I tried that too. Lift the bag, fire the element, stir stir stir, then drop. It was very difficult, and very hands on. I had to hold the bag (which was heavy) for 2-3 min while my wife turned the element on and stirred. Our 2 year old is running around being a maniac, and it was very stressful. At the end, I tried it twice and undershot my temp adjustment the first time and overshot it the second time. Not a good solution for me.

Throwing more bells and whistles and money at the problem may not improve your lifestyle or beer, and could further complicate your brewing process, cleaning maintaining set up and break down.

I get that. Which is why I went with the setup I have now. I wanted simplicity. I didn't want pumps, or a 3 vessel system, or HERMS or RIMS or anything like that. I wanted one vessel. I also wanted a very simple heating element. Thats why I went with the StillDragon and not an automated system. But I know my system is lacking what I want now.

Buying the extra bells and whistles may not solve the problem. But I know it isn't working for what I want now. So I have to try something.

Are you taking your temps after a good stir of the mash, or just taking temp of the top wort?

I've tried it all. It isn't an inacurate temp reading I'm getting. I know that.

 

[LittleRiver]

...I've tried wrapping with multiple blankets and all kinds of other things, but I still lose 8 degrees in an hour. Another one went from 158 to 143 in 90 min, and another went from 150 to 138 in 60 min. I can live with 4-5 degrees, but 8-12 isn't going to work for me...

I don't blame you for being unhappy with that much heat loss, and that much variability.

I insulate with a kids sleeping bag (photos in this post). Most of the year I stay within 1degF for the full 60min. Even in winter I only lose a few degrees, but even in winter I always stay within 1deg for the critical first 10-15min. That's why I'm thinking there is something in your process that is causing you to have so much heat loss.

I am using propane, and the thermal mass of the burner is enclosed within the sleeping bag, so that is one difference (possibly a significant one) between our rigs.

I don't open the insulation during the mash. I use a thermometer with a remote probe, with the tip of the probe positioned a few inches below the top of the mash, and a few inches from the side of the kettle.

...I'm tired of trying to insulate.... I'm also not a fan of the "lift and heat" method... I have some deadspace in the kettle, and I know that's contributing to my heat loss...

I wouldn't give up on insulation just yet, it is the simplest and most efficient way to go if you can get it to work.

Try a batch where you dough in, immediately close up the kettle and insulate it, and don't open it for 60min.

I don't use a mash cap, but only because I don't need one. If my temps were falling too much I would certainly take that step before I'd consider adding the additional complexity, expense, and cleanup of a recirculating rig.

 

[Tommydee]

My two cents. Either go simple no recirc with stir OR if recirc, I highly recommend split the outlet of your pump via tee to the top of mash with ball valve (loc-line), and to a whirlpool port on the side/under the bag. Use false bottom of course with wilserbag OR go stainless screen. Otherwise, it’s very difficult to maintain constant mash temp if you reduce pump flow. If you increase pump flow in a bigger beer with fine crush, too easy to dryfire the element. Disclaimer, I’m just 8 batches in, and am just trying the split setup now based on successes of 3 other friends.

 

[McKnuckle]

A removable or semi-permanent Reflectix wrap cut to fit the kettle, a circular foam mash cap, and a single heavy blanket wrapped around the kettle - and NO stirring of any kind - is frankly de rigeur for mashing in a kettle. Look around HBT and Google it and you'll see how many kettles are thusly equipped.

It's not duct tape or standing on tip toes holding the TV antenna. Many, many homebrewers have faced the same challenges and come up with these solutions. They do work. If you keep the pieces around, they will just become part of your brew gear and not embarrassing hacks.

Circulation with controlled heat seems really great because clearly all the cool kids do it, but my experience trying several methods is that it's either done really well and at decent expense and complexity, or just forget about it.

I have a basically new Brew Hardware RIMS setup (minus a pump) for sale on the forum. PIDs and I are not destined to be friends.

 

[specialkayme]

Try a batch where you dough in, immediately close up the kettle and insulate it, and don't open it for 60min.

I have. It doesn't matter. Here's the last 6 batches I did:

1. 60 min mash. Start at 156.1. Check at 30 min - 152.4. Check at 60 min - 149.1. (7 degree loss)
2. 60 min mash. Start at 157.1. End at 149.1. Didn't open the kettle. (8 degree loss)
3. 60 min mash. Start at 150. End at 138. Didn't open kettle. (12 degree loss)
4. 90 min mash. Start at 158. End at 143. Didn't open kettle. (15 degree loss over 90 min).
5. 60 min mash. Start at 151.6. 146.3 at 30 min. Lift/heat to 152.6. 149 at 60 min.
6. 60 min mash. Start at 152.2. Check at 30 min - 147.3. Check at 60 min - 144.2. (8 degree loss)

The numbers are fairly compariable. When I didn't open the kettle, I lost 8-12 degrees over 60 min. When I did open the kettle, I lost 7-8 degrees over 60 min. Honestly the 7 degree one and the 12 degree one are both probably outliers. So I'm hovering around 8 degree loss regardless.

 

[specialkayme]

A removable or semi-permanent Reflectix wrap cut to fit the kettle, a circular foam mash cap, and a single heavy blanket wrapped around the kettle - and NO stirring of any kind - is frankly de rigeur for mashing in a kettle.

This is just exhausting (not your help, that is greatly appreciated, but having to find more patchwork fixes).

I'm tired of trying to find various parts at home improvement stores, taping it together and hoping it works. And when it doesn't, throwing something else at it. I'm sorry, but I don't want to do this anymore. I understand it has worked for hundreds or thousands of other people, and if I put another 2 years at trying to make this work I get it could work for me too. But I'm just tired of it.

I don't want to spend $50 on reflextix, wrap my kettle and tape it into place and hope that it works.
I don't want to spend $50 on foam insulation and wrap it in tin foil or plastic wrap to make a mash cap and hope that it works.
I don't want to have to take an old blanket and throw it in the dryer to warm it up 30 min before I start brewing then quickly wrap the reflextix wrapped kettle in it and throw some bungie cords around it.

Most importantly, I don't want to have to do all three of these things. Which is what will happen after I add reflextix or a mash cap and find out that fix wasn't enough (just like everyone else on here doesn't seem to need more than a big blanket). I also don't want to figure out in 3 months that one layer of reflexitix really doesn't work that well, and have to get another layer. Or that the foam mash cap doesn't really hold temps that well, or is too difficult to clean, and I'm better off getting a higher insulator, or cut the rim off a stock pot lid I bought at a used restaurant equipment auction. Throw more money and more time at it and see if it gets better.

It's not duct tape or standing on tip toes holding the TV antenna. Many, many homebrewers have faced the same challenges and come up with these solutions. They do work.

But it is duct tape. It is jiggling the TV antenna with bits of aluminum foil bunched up at the ends.

The system doesn't work right now. When the intended solution is to get a series of parts that are intended to be used for something else entirely and creating makeshift and temporary solutions, and crafting something that isn't great but will "do for now" based on the cost and the "rough fit" it is exactly duct tape. In fact, most of the projected solutions literally involve duct tape and aluminum foil (plus housing insulation and other odds and ends). Don't get me wrong, I get that it works for some people. But how much do I need? In the end, I may end up spending $200-300 in make shift items to create temporary solutions. At that point, I'd rather just buy a mash tun. But I don't want a mash tun, because I don't want to have another item that I have to lug out on brew day, clean, and store in the garage.

A recirc pump is another item that I have to clean, and another item that could break. I don't want it. But it is the part that is designed and intended to fix the problem I have, no?

I'm sorry for this long and frustrated post. It isn't your fault and I know you're just trying to help me and I appreciate it greatly. But I've been fighting with this thing for 6 months and I'm tired of trying "one more thing" or "seeing if that will do anything." I enjoy the experimentation of making beer, and really like the hobby (I've been doing it since 2004) but at this point I just want something to work.

I don't use a mash cap, but only because I don't need one. If my temps were falling too much I would certainly take that step before I'd consider adding the additional complexity, expense, and cleanup of a recirculating rig.

Maybe I'm not understanding (because I've never had a mash cap or a recirc system) but why is it so much more work to clean a recirc than it is to clean all this other stuff?

Invariably, my sleeping bag gets dirty. It isn't the easiest thing in the world to clean a sleeping bag. Same thing if I used a big quilted blanket. Same thing with the reflexitix if I were to use it (although probably just wiping it down). The mash cap would need to be cleaned too, or I replace the foil I use to wrap it in every time. But with a recirc, why wouldn't I just throw in some oxiclean and set the pump to recirc and clean everything out (CIP)? Once done, disassemble and rinse. That seems really simple. What am I missing?

 

[specialkayme]

go simple no recirc with stir . . . Use false bottom of course with wilserbag

I'm afraid I'll end up getting very inconsistent temps in the mash. Assuming I stir every ten min with the heating element set at 20% power, I could easily end up with the bottom of the mash at 158 and the top of the mash at 145. That doesn't really accomplish what I'm looking to do though. Plus, when I miss one of the 10 min stirs (because one of a dozen other things come up when I'm brewing) the temp differential will only get larger.

It sounds great. But I just don't think it will practically work that well. The only way it would work well is if I throw even more insulation at the kettle in order to keep the power very low. Which gets me right back to all my frustrations.

 

[afro_lou]

If you’ve got a few bucks to throw at the problem, I’d start with these, in order:


1) Stirring more often, at least for the first 15 minutes or so of the mash.

2) Mesh Basket like the ones from Utah Deisel
Maybe less likely to deform if your pump speed is too high.

3) A RIMS or HERMS system
Probably overkill, but I think you can get/build a relatively inexpensive 120v RIMS tube which should be enough to get a bit more consistency in your mash.

4) Some kind of lid mounted automatic mash stirrer!


Last question, what are your ambient air temps? Maybe the temp losses will decrease when the air is warmer?


Good luck!

 

[WBCo]

I started out very similarly to you. I switched to BIAB for the simplicity and just ended up with a new set of problems. I originally went with a Wilser bag, but was having insulating problems. I added a pump and a RIMS tube and manually turned the element on and off as I needed to. Then I built a controller with an Auber PID. Then I decided I'd rather just buy a stainless basket. The Wilser bags are built well, but I found them a pain in the butt to clean and I didn't want to worry about it being sucked down under a false bottom and onto the element.

Skip ahead about a dozen iterations and I am happy. I have a Spike kettle set up almost identically to yours. I have a Utah Bio basket and I recirc constantly during the mash using a center inlet Chugger pump with a ball valve on the output. I am still using my DIY PID controller. I am able to set the mash in temp as soon as I wake up on a Saturday morning and walk away to make coffee and breakfast, take the dogs out, etc. When I come back the liquor is ready for mash in. I mash in and walk away, checking every 15 min or so. I also like to step mash and this setup makes that incredibly easy as well.

I would suggest an EZBoil controller from Auber as well, since you aren't keen on DIY, and upgrade to one of their TC temp probes in that lower location. I have a similar port on the top that I use for recirculating the wort, my DIY steam slayer, and whirlpooling. Like you, one of the most important things is being able to walk away. I enjoy my brew days, but I also enjoy being able to get other things done around the house whilst mashing. If I'm just sitting around looking at the mash tun I end up drinking too much .

 

[specialkayme]

If you’ve got a few bucks to throw at the problem, I’d start with these, in order:


1) Stirring more often, at least for the first 15 minutes or so of the mash.

2) Mesh Basket like the ones from Utah Deisel
Maybe less likely to deform if your pump speed is too high.

I doubt I'd be willing to go further than step 2.

The problem I see, is in order for me to do #1 I have to get a false bottom to keep the bag off the element. If it works, great. But if it doesn't, that's $60 gone. It still might be worth the effort though.

Either way I need a better heat controller in order to do any of these. Guessing as to what percentage of power simply isn't going to work out for me. Looks like I'm probably getting a Cube.

Last question, what are your ambient air temps? Maybe the temp losses will decrease when the air is warmer?

I didn't record that data, but it was all done in my kitchen inbetween November and April. So I'd guess between 68 and 72 degrees.

I doubt it will get much better in warmer weather. The AC kicks on, and keeps it in the 72-74 degree range. Should be negligible.

 

[specialkayme]

I would suggest an EZBoil controller from Auber as well, since you aren't keen on DIY, and upgrade to one of their TC temp probes in that lower location. I have a similar port on the top that I use for recirculating the wort, my DIY steam slayer, and whirlpooling. Like you, one of the most important things is being able to walk away. I enjoy my brew days, but I also enjoy being able to get other things done around the house whilst mashing. If I'm just sitting around looking at the mash tun I end up drinking too much .

Thank you for the suggestion.

Which TC temp probe do you think would work best? As far as I can tell, it's all the same temp probe, only various lengths. My temp TC port is set at 3" off the bottom, and I'd probably need 4" of clearance for any false bottom or basket in order to clear the heating element, so I shouldn't have much of a problem with the probe coming into contact with the basket or false bottom. Obviously an 8" long probe might touch the heating element, but a 1.5", 2.3" or 6" should all be able to work. Any suggestion?

 

[WBCo]

Thank you for the suggestion.

Which TC temp probe do you think would work best? As far as I can tell, it's all the same temp probe, only various lengths. My temp TC port is set at 3" off the bottom, and I'd probably need 4" of clearance for any false bottom or basket in order to clear the heating element, so I shouldn't have much of a problem with the probe coming into contact with the basket or false bottom. Obviously an 8" long probe might touch the heating element, but a 1.5", 2.3" or 6" should all be able to work. Any suggestion?

I want to say that I'm using the 2.3" probe on mine, it's definitely not 6" or 8". Also, I have my diptube pointing almost directly at the temp probe. The theory being that the temp probe is reading water that is constantly moving, and in my head that is better. I don't check much anymore, but when I started brewing with this system the temps were very even throughout the kettle.

But yes, anything that clears your element will clear the temp probe

 

[Dory Rules]

What strike temp are you using? Are you taking your starting temp after stirring?

 

[specialkayme]

What strike temp are you using?

For the corresponding previous 6 brews in Post #15, my strike temps were:
1. 160.1 (although I only hit 145 with this, had to do an emergency "lift and heat")
2. 165.5
3. 161.0
4. 165.0
5. 161.0
6. 160.7

Grain bills were all different though. Both in quantity and temp (I didn't log the grain temp, but I keep it in an outdoor shed, and sometimes I move the grains in the night before and sometimes I only have the chance to move them in an hour or so before I mash in).

Are you taking your starting temp after stirring?

Yes.

 

[LittleRiver]

...I'm sorry for this long and frustrated post.

... Maybe I'm not understanding (because I've never had a mash cap or a recirc system) but why is it so much more work to clean a recirc than it is to clean all this other stuff?...

If you're so frustrated you aren't allowing yourself to see the difference between spraying off a mash cap and the setup/disassembly/cleaning of a recirc system, then you are definitely not understanding the help that people are trying to give you.

...Invariably, my sleeping bag gets dirty. It isn't the easiest thing in the world to clean a sleeping bag...

I've never gotten wort on my sleeping bag. If I did I'd just wipe it off and not worry about it, because it's a $14 kids sleeping bag I bought specifically for insulating my kettle. It doesn't get used for anything else.

If you are crushing your grains fine, conversion can be complete in 10-15 minutes. Have you measured your temps at 10-15min, and tested to see if conversion is complete?

If the temp is good and the enzymes are done working, then all your frustration about precise temp control for the remainder of the mash is just much ado about nothing.

 

[specialkayme]

If you are crushing your grains fine, conversion can be complete in 10-15 minutes. Have you measured your temps at 10-15min, and tested to see if conversion is complete?

I don't think I crush my grains that fine, but no I haven't checked temps or tested conversion at 10-15 min. Every time I checked it in the past, the heat loss was fairly linear. I have no reason to believe it would have been any different in the first 15 min (2-3 degree loss most likely). But I'd be shocked if conversion was complete in that time period.

Maybe I'll check next time though. You never know.

 

[afro_lou]

I doubt I'd be willing to go further than step 2.

The problem I see, is in order for me to do #1 I have to get a false bottom to keep the bag off the element. If it works, great. But if it doesn't, that's $60 gone. It still might be worth the effort though.

Either way I need a better heat controller in order to do any of these. Guessing as to what percentage of power simply isn't going to work out for me. Looks like I'm probably getting a Cube.




I didn't record that data, but it was all done in my kitchen inbetween November and April. So I'd guess between 68 and 72 degrees.

I doubt it will get much better in warmer weather. The AC kicks on, and keeps it in the 72-74 degree range. Should be negligible.

So, that’s pretty much exactly the progressions I have made. I have Bobby M’s false bottom, and it’s awesome. Beautifully made, and fits my kettle perfectly. I use Wilser bags, which are also supremely awesome. Extremely tough, and fitted beautifully to my kettle/false bottom (20 gallon Spike eBIAB).
I ran through it earlier, but I had issues with recirculating, purely due to my error. After I fixed that, I stopped recirculating and went to just stirring the mash. Slight problem #2 for me is that I have a nice stainless mash paddle, which I have to be very careful with when I stirring. I’ve already made a ton of little nicks in by bag from bumping either the whirlpool inlet, the false bottom, or sides of the pot. It doesn’t seem to have affected the bag, but it’s a minor annoyance all the same. Anyway, I’ve got a Utah Deisel basket on order now, and I can’t wait to put it to use. If I get comfortable enough running my pump to recirculate throughout the whole mash, I’m going to install a port in the lid of my pot to mount a sparge arm on.
Anyway, that’s a really long winded way of saying I should have just started with the basket.
Also, I’d highly recommend the Auber Cube! The EZBoil pid is great, and not too difficult to use. So far, the temp probe has been super accurate, matching my thermopen perfectly.

Lastly, I know how difficult it is brewing with kids! Mine are 3 and 5, and I’ve just recently (6 months or so) been able to really get back into it. Good luck!

 

[specialkayme]

Anyway, I’ve got a Utah Deisel basket on order now, and I can’t wait to put it to use. If I get comfortable enough running my pump to recirculate throughout the whole mash, I’m going to install a port in the lid of my pot to mount a sparge arm on.

Let me know how the basket works for you. I'm very interested in finding out if you like it.

I'm leaning toward getting the Cube to start with and then getting a basket, and holding off on the pump for the time being. I feel comfortable enough to let the Cube regulate the temp with the basket in place without recirculating, and taking some temp readings while doing an occasional stir. If I find that I need to constantly stir, or if there is some significant temp variations, or having to watch the pot every 10 min becomes too much, I might look at getting a pump then and recirculating.

I can't imagine cleaning the basket is any more work than cleaning the bag. And hopefully I'll be able to ditch most of the insulation issues.

 

[afro_lou]

Will do! I already received a Utah Diesel hop spider, and if the basket is half as awesome, I’ll be on cloud 9. The spider is waaay easier to clean than the hop bags or the grain bag. I empty the spent hops out either into my compost or my green garbage can, then just hose the remaining bits out, and it’s pretty much good to go. I’ll put it in the cleaning solution in my pot when I’m cleaning out the system, though, just to be safe.

For the pump, if all you’d be using it for is recirculating, you’d probably be fine without it. In my setup, though, I use it for nearly the entire brew day. I recirculate when heating the strike water/adding salts and acid, and I use a counterflow chiller, so I’ll start the pump 15 minutes before the end of the boil to sanitize. I also do a semi clean-in-place by heating PBW and pumping it through everything on my brewstand (2 pumps, brewpot, plus any bits and bobs I can let soak in the kettle). Anyway, that’s my process, and it works for me.

 

[specialkayme]

Recirculating isn't the only thing I planned on using the pump for. I actually got the 1.5" port in the top of the kettle for the time when I'm ready to whirlpool, if I decided to. At the moment, I just use a spoon and stir real hard. A pump would make it a ton easier, but I can't justify getting it just for that.

If I did recirc, I would whirlphool and CIP as well. I just can't justify getting a pump and fittings for one of the three. Maybe for all three though.

 

[specialkayme]

Does anyone know why the 400 micron size for a basket is so popular?

I've used Brew-in-a-Bag's bag for a few years and have never had any issues with a "stuck mash" and I can mill as fine as I want. Their bag is 210 microns in size. But so many people choose the 400 micron size, as anything smaller is likely to get stuck. Why would 210 on a bag be fine, but 400 is needed on a basket? Any ideas?

 

[tennesseean_87]

I'm not sure about baskets, but I have a bayou classic kettle and have built everything. I'm using a voile curtain bag I sewed. It doesn't burn on the element (5.5kw ULWD ripple). I think the density is so low there's not a problem. When I used the bag inside the BC steamer basket, there wasn't enough area and I'd get stuck recirc and rising water levels. Using bag only and crushing coarser have given higher efficiency, likely due to the higher rate of recirc keeping enzymes and starches moving and able to find one another. You're going to lose heat while recircing, so I have pipe tubing over my hoses and reflectix around my kettle, and a floating mash lid. I made a cpvc COFI-style recirc return that sits in the mash lid.

The only things I'm not completely happy with are tuning my PID and where I'm sensing temps. I take my readings from the return, not from the bottom of the kettle. I also have the probe in a thermowell, which I'm sure delays the reading and causes fluctuations.

Also, with these pumps, DO NOT restrict the flow into the pump. You need a ball valve on the output of the pump, whether it's built in or not.

 

[specialkayme]

I'm using a voile curtain bag I sewed. It doesn't burn on the element (5.5kw ULWD ripple). I think the density is so low there's not a problem.

I've read some that have no problem with putting the bag directly on a ULWD element, and others that burn a hole in their bag. I've read about some that have no problem with putting the bag on the element in water only, only to have the bag burn once grains are added, and others only have problems once the grain bill increases beyond a certain amount.

With so many variables (the density of the mash, the make of the element, the composition of the bag) the only way to tell for certain if I might have an issue is to let it rip and see what happens. I may just have to give it a shot and see what happens. If it burns, I'm only out $30 (assuming the element isn't toast).

Also, with these pumps, DO NOT restrict the flow into the pump. You need a ball valve on the output of the pump, whether it's built in or not.

Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Tommydee]

For those running just recirc into a loc-line or other means to top of the mash, and using voile bag, how are you avoiding a gradient? When I step temp up, the bottom gets to temp fast, but top of mash takes much longer. (Checked with thermal energy). If I try to recirc faster to make temp more uniform, especially a big beer, then I dry the bottom of kettle. Was planning to run with split outlet today (whirlpool AND locline to equalize pressure across the bag) but had to push out the brew day. I’ll tepirt when I get this brew done.

 

[Blazinlow86]

For those running just recirc into a loc-line or other means to top of the mash, and using voile bag, how are you avoiding a gradient? When I step temp up, the bottom gets to temp fast, but top of mash takes much longer. (Checked with thermal energy). If I try to recirc faster to make temp more uniform, especially a big beer, then I dry the bottom of kettle. Was planning to run with split outlet today (whirlpool AND locline to equalize pressure across the bag) but had to push out the brew day. I’ll tepirt when I get this brew done.

Not sure there is much more you can do. If you can't turn the liquid over faster I'd think either stirring frequently on adjusting your Grist to flow allowing faster turn over are the only options. Maybe try insulating your kettle better and just omit the recirculating altogether?

 

[Wagon_6]

Not sure there is much more you can do. If you can't turn the liquid over faster I'd think either stirring frequently on adjusting your Grist to flow allowing faster turn over are the only options. Maybe try insulating your kettle better and just omit the recirculating altogether?

That’s the direction I went on my system. I crush a bit coarser, .32 I believe, condition the malt before crushing and got the 600 micron bottom on basket. This provides a really good flow and I haven’t had any grain/particles making it past the basket.

 

[javaking]

Hi specialkayme,

What is your water to grain ratio during the mash? It's very possible it's too thin resulting in greater heat loss. In general you may want to try making the mash thicker which should help maintain temps.

 

[specialkayme]

I crush a bit coarser, .32 I believe, condition the malt before crushing and got the 600 micron bottom on basket. This provides a really good flow and I haven’t had any grain/particles making it past the basket.

If you don't mind me asking, why did you go with the 600 micron size?

From what I can tell, most on here went with a 400 micron size. It's what the manufacturer recommends, mainly because it's the most popular. But I've used my bag for years now, and with a 210 micron size I haven't had a single stuck sparge issue. Why would I not have an issue at 210 now, but would suddenly need to increase to 400 if I used a basket instead of a bag?

 

[specialkayme]

Hi specialkayme,

What is your water to grain ratio during the mash? It's very possible it's too thin resulting in greater heat loss. In general you may want to try making the mash thicker which should help maintain temps.

Interesting. I didn't know that was a thing.

Right now I"m doing full volume mashes. Last batch (yesterday) was 13 lbs of grain in 31 quarts of water, so 2.38 quarts per pound.

I figured having more water per pound should have increased my thermal mass, which would have reduced my headspace and reduced my temp loss. Was I thinking incorrectly?

 

[doug293cz]

Hi specialkayme,

What is your water to grain ratio during the mash? It's very possible it's too thin resulting in greater heat loss. In general you may want to try making the mash thicker which should help maintain temps.

Interesting. I didn't know that was a thing.

Right now I"m doing full volume mashes. Last batch (yesterday) was 13 lbs of grain in 31 quarts of water, so 2.38 quarts per pound.

I figured having more water per pound should have increased my thermal mass, which would have reduced my headspace and reduced my temp loss. Was I thinking incorrectly?

More water in the mash, for the same grain weight, does not result in more temp loss. Water has a heat capacity of 1 BTU/lb/°F. This means a pound of water must lose one BTU of heat to drop one degree in temperature. Grain has a heat capacity of 0.38 - 0.44 BTU/lb/°F, meaning the grain only has to lose about 0.40 BTU/lb to drop one degree. Let's do some math:

1 gal of water is 8.33 lb, so 31 qts = 7.75 gal, or 8.33 * 7.75 = 64.6 lb, so to lose 1°F with your mash above you have to lose:
64.6 lb * 1 BTU/lb + 13 lb * 0.4 BTU/lb = 69.8 BTU

If you mashed in with 1.5 qt/lb you would have: 8.33 lb/gal 1.5 qt/lb * 13 lb / 4 qt/gal = 40.6 lb of water, and to lose 1°F requires a loss of:
40.6 lb * 1 BTU/lb + 13 lb * 0.4 BTU/lb = 45.8 BTU
​

So at a similar rate of heat loss, the temperature will drop faster with the thicker mash, since it has a lower total heat capacity than the thinner mash.

Brew on