Easy Way to Make Sour Beers (1 gal wort + dregs)

[ThatVideoKid]

Boy am I glad I found this. Question about a saison that I'm about to brew (and pull a gallon off to funk up).

What's the IBU threshold? My saison recipe as of now clocks in around 13-15 IBUs. If this is too high I can certainly adjust.

Also, I'm fermenting the saison with 3711. Should I let this ferment out a few days before pulling a gallon off to funk up? I've read most of this entire thread and it looks like people are having more success or rather quicker success by letting it ferment out at least a few days with sacc before pitching dregs.

It's really depends...some lactos won't work at 10 IBUs, but then there's some people that have reportedly had success with 30+ (I'm thinking of Cascade I think). I would recommend running off a gallon halfway through your saison boil so the IBUs are lower for that gallon.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Oh I would also like to update on my gallons after camping for 4 days...

Monks/Allagash Brett:

Came home to a beer filled chunky airlock. Really didn't expect vigorous fermentation with just some bottle dregs. Still bubbling away after an airlock change.

WW:

Left it on top of the dehumidifier for the weekend, probably sitting in the high 80s. Came back to a bubbly pellicle starting to form. Took it off and put it with the Allagash. Hopefully didn't develop anything bad with those high temps.

 

[TravelingLight]

It's really depends...some lactos won't work at 10 IBUs, but then there's some people that have reportedly had success with 30+ (I'm thinking of Cascade I think). I would recommend running off a gallon halfway through your saison boil so the IBUs are lower for that gallon.

Good call. I'm not even doing a 60 min bittering charge, only doing a 10 min and FO/WP addition. So I could just pull off a gallon before adding any hops at the 10 minute mark. Excellent.

Also, is the cherry go lightly the only WW bottle you've tried? I've got quite a few WW bottles in my cellar and was curious which ones should have viable dreggs. I'd love to pull dregs from Black Angel (consistently in my top five favorite sours) and a few others they have. I'll be back up there in a few weeks and maybe I can find someone at Funkatorium who would know what's viable and what's not.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Good call. I'm not even doing a 60 min bittering charge, only doing a 10 min and FO/WP addition. So I could just pull off a gallon before adding any hops at the 10 minute mark. Excellent.



Also, is the cherry go lightly the only WW bottle you've tried? I've got quite a few WW bottles in my cellar and was curious which ones should have viable dreggs. I'd love to pull dregs from Black Angel (consistently in my top five favorite sours) and a few others they have. I'll be back up there in a few weeks and maybe I can find someone at Funkatorium who would know what's viable and what's not.

Yeah that's the only one I've tried so far. I have black and white Angels which I will try when I decide to drink those

I would love to know what's viable and what's not, because it's not unlikely that I just have random crap growing in my WW jug

 

[ArthurDigbySellers]

Good call. I'm not even doing a 60 min bittering charge, only doing a 10 min and FO/WP addition. So I could just pull off a gallon before adding any hops at the 10 minute mark. Excellent.

Also, is the cherry go lightly the only WW bottle you've tried? I've got quite a few WW bottles in my cellar and was curious which ones should have viable dreggs. I'd love to pull dregs from Black Angel (consistently in my top five favorite sours) and a few others they have. I'll be back up there in a few weeks and maybe I can find someone at Funkatorium who would know what's viable and what's not.

Looks like Black Angel is viable. Here is the list from The Mad Fermentationist's website:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

 

[TravelingLight]

Looks like Black Angel is viable. Here is the list from The Mad Fermentationist's website:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

Thank you! THAT was the list I was looking for. Don't know how I overlooked it.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Thank you! THAT was the list I was looking for. Don't know how I overlooked it.

Yeah I feel like it must be more than those though, right? Why would black angel and not the other angels. Maybe I'll shoot them an email

 

[TravelingLight]

Yeah I feel like it must be more than those though, right? Why would black angel and not the other angels. Maybe I'll shoot them an email

Excellent question. And I'm certain they have numerous other viable bottles. Perhaps those are the only ones Tonsmiere has personally used and gotten viable dregs from?

 

[TravelingLight]

I saved three tubes of dregs from a share this weekend. I'd like to pitch some into one gallon of my saison I have in primary right now. Here is what I have:

Tube 1: Russian River Concecration + RR Supplication
Tube 2: Jester King Provenance + JK RU55
Tube 3: Rare Barrel No Salt

First question is should any of these not be used? Or would one be better than the others? Also, should I step these up in a starter or just go straight into the beer? Currently they're sealed in the tubes in the fridge.

 

[badlee]

Stepping them up will not hurt,for sure. Plus, that way you get to keep some as is.
I would go for the JK as it has a reputation for having beasty dregs!

RB bottle with wine yeast.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Rare Barrel has a conditioning Brett strain, but the bugs are in there. RR will work but the wine yeast will have killed the sacc. So it's just wine yeast, bugs and Brett. However the bugs and Brett should easily out compete the wine yeast. The beer from stepping it is a toss up though.

 

[TravelingLight]

Stepping them up will not hurt,for sure. Plus, that way you get to keep some as is.
I would go for the JK as it has a reputation for having beasty dregs!

RB bottle with wine yeast.

I think that's my plan now! Step them all up, pitch some, and bank the rest. And I was already thinking about pitching the JK.

Rare Barrel has a conditioning Brett strain, but the bugs are in there. RR will work but the wine yeast will have killed the sacc. So it's just wine yeast, bugs and Brett. However the bugs and Brett should easily out compete the wine yeast. The beer from stepping it is a toss up though.

Excellent info, thanks for that. What did you mean about "the beer from stepping it is a toss up though"?

 

[ThatVideoKid]

I think that's my plan now! Step them all up, pitch some, and bank the rest. And I was already thinking about pitching the JK.





Excellent info, thanks for that. What did you mean about "the beer from stepping it is a toss up though"?

I mean if you wanted to get some beer out of stepping up the RR, it may or may not have some unfavorable characteristics from the wine yeast. After that the Brett and bugs should take over as they perform better in that environment

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Also some more info to make sure you favor getting bugs from a starter. As you probably know, Brett and bugs don't crash out like sacc does. So pitch at least some of the liquid from you starter(esp the RR) because the ratio of bugs/Brett to that wine yeast will be higher in the liquid. The settled out stuff will have a higher cell count, but more of it will be wine yeast. I would suggest a two stage starter. Let the first small starter ferment out. Then decant off the liquid into more starter wort. Kind of the opposite of what you would normally do.

FWIW I haven't done this yet, but in theory it's solid. I plan to do this with my consecration when I get an empty carboy.

 

[TravelingLight]

Also some more info to make sure you favor getting bugs from a starter. As you probably know, Brett and bugs don't crash out like sacc does. So pitch at least some of the liquid from you starter(esp the RR) because the ratio of bugs/Brett to that wine yeast will be higher in the liquid. The settled out stuff will have a higher cell count, but more of it will be wine yeast. I would suggest a two stage starter. Let the first small starter ferment out. Then decant off the liquid into more starter wort. Kind of the opposite of what you would normally do.

FWIW I haven't done this yet, but in theory it's solid. I plan to do this with my consecration when I get an empty carboy.

That is phenomenal info, and no, I did not know that brett and bugs don't crash out like sacc. And I'm glad you told me because I would have been flummoxed had it not crashed out. I think I used that word correctly.

When you say decant the liquid off into new starter wort, you're saying don't pitch the stuff that crashes out, i.e., because that's mostly the wine yeast?

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Yeah some of that will be bugs, but that will be your highest concentration of the wine yeast. Going into just 1 gallon you might be fine just pitching a cup or two of just the starter beer, but I think you're better off with a new starter.

Again I don't have experience with this, but the theory is there with everything I've read/everything Jay talks about on the sour hour. Highly recommend binging that podcast on your commutes.

 

[TravelingLight]

Yeah some of that will be bugs, but that will be your highest concentration of the wine yeast. Going into just 1 gallon you might be fine just pitching a cup or two of just the starter beer, but I think you're better off with a new starter.

Again I don't have experience with this, but the theory is there with everything I've read/everything Jay talks about on the sour hour. Highly recommend binging that podcast on your commutes.

Noted and added to my list! Thanks.

 

[TravelingLight]

How long are y'all letting these sit before you check/bottle/otherwise? I've got a sexy looking pellicle going on a one gallon saison fermented with 3711, then pitched Jester King dregs (RU55 + Provenance). I'm in no hurry at all. Just didn't know how long I should let it sit in the closet before I touch it.

 

[JeffOYB]

MY REPORT ON MY FIRST FLANDERS ATTEMPT:

I'm aiming for "easy" with my first attempt at a Flanders Red. I'm using Sparrow's recipe. I boiled it up and pitched and it bubbled and now it's maybe 7 months later. I sampled it and it's tangy.

It's amazing how 'thin' it is. Attenuated might be the term. It's kinda like tangy water. It tastes pretty good though I guess. So I'm happy for now and that's the point, right? I do kinda wish it had more body. I'm not the best at determining taste w/o carbonation. Tho I don't need a lot of fizz to like a beer. This beer is often blended, right? I figure I can do my own blending later. Like, I could just make 'black'n'tans' w it. ...I could add some storebought malty amber when it's time to drink to boost the body. My rule is my tastebuds! It has a lot of nice red/brown color to it, tho.

I haven't done any secondary. It just sits there in the primary fermenter. There is a 1-2" layer of white stuff at the bottom. I don't see a pellicle on top. It's in my basement which has maybe been about 60F all summer.

So now I just added a couple pounds of fresh frozen red raspberries that I've picked the last few weeks from my yard patch. I didn't boil them or even wash. They were clean. Probably they have yard yeast on them. Who knows. We'll see what happens. I just funneled them down the mouth of my carboy. I also added a couple ounces of oak chips that I'd soaked a few days in water then drained off the water. (I've read that I can keep the oak chips but I don't know how I'm going to separate them from the glop. I can try to later on after bottling.) Maybe I'll try to pipette off another pint so I can fit in another couple pounds of berries. Sparrow writes that a pound per gallon is common. But I bet so is just adding "what ya got, as much as you might feel like." So now I'll keep an eye on it and see if it starts bubbling again. And I'll taste now'n'then. My vague idea is that it might taste even niftier in a month. Hopefully all the berries sink over time. Then after fizzing is done awhile I could siphon/strain into a metal pot with some bottling sugar in it then bottle.

I'm not big on waiting. So at each step of this game when I sample it if it tastes good I'll move to the next step. Sure, it might get even better w time but if it seems good then I'll probably act.

To me, sour Belgian beer goes with CYCLOCROSS. And that season is just starting. Also my birthday is Oct 30. So I wouldn't mind starting to drink these in November.

Conversely, if a sample doesn't taste good at any step, I'll let it sit and taste again later to see if anything got better. I might also read more as I go along to see if any possible fix at some point inspires me.

I've seen notes about "bottle bombs" and long-term fermenting creating ever more CO2. And so some don't like to bottle w extra sugar it looks like. But I'm thinking my friends and I will drink this 5 gal batch quick enough to not get in pressure trouble. A 2-wk carbonation plan doesn't sound bad to me. I use heavy pint bottles.

If no fizz happens in a few days w these berries then I will read up a bit more and maybe add some Monk's Cafe dregs and see if that starts anything.

That's my report!

 

[TastyAdventure]

Are you ONLY adding the dregs? This might be a stupid question but that is severely underpitching, so does that still work out OK?

 

[crane]

Are you ONLY adding the dregs? This might be a stupid question but that is severely underpitching, so does that still work out OK?

I build up the dregs with starter wort by adding a few hundred ml directly to the bottle after pouring the beer. I cover the bottle with aluminum foil and let it sit a few weeks before pitching into the 1 gallon

 

[bionut]

Spontaneous fermentation is also underpitched, but it works quite well

 

[TastyAdventure]

If I am pitching a decent amount of sacch and a dreg that's been building up for a week at the same time, on brew day, should I aerate it just like normal? Or would the bugs not like that?

 

[505-Brewer]

Aerate. Yeast will need it and out win bugs for it. If your worried pitch yeast then bug starter 24h later.

 

[mbbransc]

I build up the dregs with starter wort by adding a few hundred ml directly to the bottle after pouring the beer. I cover the bottle with aluminum foil and let it sit a few weeks before pitching into the 1 gallon

I did this recently with a bottle of Cantillion Gueuze and the 1gal beer now is straight vinegar. I think next time just a couple days in the bottle before pitching into the 1gal.