Easy Stove-Top Pasteurizing - With Pics

[Captincanuck]

When using the Grolsch bottles for this do you replace the seals each time? I tried without using new seals and they all started blowing out the side when I put them in the 160 water after about 3min? They weren't overlay carbonated, I popped one and it was perfect (before the hot water). Also left about 1.5" of head space.

 

[Blue-Frog]

I am not carefully following this thread, but I just did a few swing-top bottles and noticed that
some "burping" did begin to occur at ~60 C.

Things will depend upon the tension (adjust by bending the cage wires),
the CO2 content, head space and the time/temps involved.

There should be no need to use new seals each time; examine them visually and replace when they no longer have a healthy "spring".

Recall that in canning there is also outgassing taking place.

I could be wrong, but I think it is possible there isn't any real problem...

I think the level of carbonation that this works well with this -
is at the very bottom of the bubbly range. Keep it gentle!

If the bottle pushes foam out of the head upon opening - there is too much carbonation to pasteurize with a reasonable margin of saftey.
my 2 yenYMMV

I am just learning myself, but a few observations, fears are:

1. Gas rises. If the bottles are upright, under water,
then the burped gas should escape with no inflow of water...
but if they are upside-down, the head space gas will be where there is no exit, while the bottom pointing swing-tops will burp to exit your precious liquid into the heating water. I don't know if any of that water will sneak in or not, but nevertheless, the loss of fresh brew is not ideal.

2.
All of this is also probably true for crown cappped bottles as well... except perhaps eflux of liquids thru cork/plastic liners - not sure about how this works - people doing small scale pasteurization will probably have seen bubbles escaping from underwater bottles if it is occurring.

If anyone reading this has a friend where pasteurization is used daily, see what info/stories you can get

 

[rnorman57]

I am fairly new to cider making, but reading through this and other threads it seems like the biggest unknown/ risk with these stovetop pasteurization methods is knowing how much fermentation has taken place after adding the sugar for carbonation/ sweetening and trying to choose the right time to pasteurize. What if you added the priming sugar for carbonation, capped, let it ferment to dry, chill, then un-capped the bottles and added sugar to sweeten, re-cap and immediately pasteurize? I think much of the carbonation would remain in solution and there would not be time for excessive pressure to build back up. Just wondering if anyone has tried this and what people think of this idea.

 

[actech]

Ive done the 5 day cider twice now, pasteurized both but last batch 2 bottle bombs. Damn they blow up when they go. Used the soda bottle technique,but this time figured doing them in batches with one pot would be ok. First batch used 2 pots. This time I guess took long enough that out of the 4 bottles left to do 2 blew. So just be careful.

 

[Eschaton_YDAU]

So, I want to try this with a batch of highly alcoholic ginger brew.

It's really sweet now, and the ginger is a bit much. The solution will be dilution. But I still want it somewhere just south of soda-sweet - the stuff is pretty great as is. It's been fermenting about 12 days.

SG is 1.05. It started at 1.114. If you do the math, it's about 8.6% alcohol.

I plan to dilute it to taste, maybe down to 1.04 (just pulled that number out of my butt). No priming solution.

I would imagine that it's going to carb up quickly - as in 24 hours or so. Fermentation is pretty active. I'll be watching it like a hawk. Does that sound right?

Maybe I should chill it now to slow things down?

I plan to track its progress with a PET bottle. When that bottle is pressurized, I'll kill the poor little yeasties.

Also, the yeast is a wine yeast - Lalvin d-47. Will I be able to stop this train?

So that's a bunch of questions. Hopefully someone can tell me if I'm horribly misguided.

 

[solbes]

I did this last year and ended up with bombs in my kitchen. No one got hurt, but I felt like I was in a war zone. Full disclosure, I'm sure it was operator error on my part so not trying to dissuade people per se.

But thought I would throw out another option. You can still make the cider as specified with carbonation and residual sugar, but put the yeast to sleep in the cold instead of killing them with heat. This year I bottled up 4 gallons (had 1 in a 0.75 L coke bottle). I could track carbonation with the PET Coke bottle, so I knew when it was time to stick them in the fridge. Last year I kept at least 12 for months in the fridge and did not have problems with over carbonation (Fridge runs at 37-38F). Same thing this year and carbonation has not changed over 6 weeks. I used regular ol' Montrachet yeast with no addt'l yeast added at bottling.

Upside: Very little danger if you put them in a fridge that is both cold enough (and your yeast goes to sleep at that temp) and you put them in at the right time. Downside: you have to have enough fridge space for the duration of your bottles.

Cheers!

 

[Ike]

You can still make the cider as specified with carbonation and residual sugar, but put the yeast to sleep in the cold instead of killing them with heat.

Cheers!

To a degree, I agree, but in my experience it's very yeast-dependent. ...Fridge temperature dependent, as well, I'd admit, but...

I made a batch of cider with Notty, and putting them in the fridge SLOWED the fermentation quite a bit, but didn't stop it. Over the course of about a month they went from perfect, to a bit too bubbly, to gushers.

I've also now made two batches of ginger beer (gettin' that recipe dialed in!) with a Red Star Pasteur (champagne, IIRC) yeast and the refrigerator doesn't even make that yeast sweat (bad analogy, I guess)! It just keeps chugging along. I'm surprised you were able to shut down a Montrachet yeast so well.

SO, YMMV and check your bottles frequently!

 

[Blue-Frog]

What yeast dies if it gets too cold?
Mostly they just ferment slower....

I refridged pet bottles of nat. carbonated rootbeer and over several years the sugar content continued to decrease...　the place to watch is the base of the pet bottle... I noticed that the indentations (constrictions?) at the foot of the bottles progressively became less and less pronounced... as the gas inside increased... every so often (1~2months?) I would remove the bottle... go outside, point the cap away from my face, and, holding the cap only by the sides (in case it were to become a bullet) and opened the caps slightly, then closing them quickly, so as not to allow too much CO2 to be released at once (if you simply opened the top... a "mentos/cola" amount of release would quickly empty your soda before you could reseal the cap- better to slowly bleed off the over carbonation)... repeatedly opening and closing the cap & bleeding the gas eventually got me to the point where the cap could be opened without getting the volcano.

Interesting thing is that after a certain amount of time, the gas can get pretty "comfortable" and start to release in a more controlled way, and not be quite as "explosive"; this can be deceptive however, because it can still keep you from reseaing the screw top if it ever gets the upperhand.

Champagne yeast is often suggested for rootbeer or sodas... (not sure why)but since they tend to ferment better when cold than say ale yeasts, they seem to be a poor choice and it should be better to choose a yeast for this process that won't ferment well cold... (!?!)

Just a common sense warning...
it is safer not to seal up live yeast on a sugar solution...
you could really make a big mess.

I put a hole in a celing with a pet bottle that lost it's cap due to over carbonation... there were a lot of people present that day but luckily no one was bending over the bottle looking at it at that exact moment....

Better to kill the yeast
and disable anything that might survive... with sorbates.

nomon keysee, nomon　keydo

 

[solbes]

In my experience most wine yeasts do not ferment well, if at all, at lower temps. Its why I make wine in the summer months as it can be pretty finicky to even start sitting in all that sugar. My only experience is with Montrachet yeast in mid to upper 30F temp range. Beer yeast would, as a few above pointed out, continue to slowly chug along in the fridge.

 

[Maylar]

I routinely put carbed cider in the fridge and have never had an over carb. They've kept for a month with no noticeable changes. When I give them away I tell people to keep it cold. I use S-04 ale yeast.

For anyone wanting to have a bit more control over what your carb level is before chilling or pasteurizing, you can make a simple carbonation monitor for your PET soda bottle. Much less subjective than squeezing the bottle for firmness.

0-60 PSI pressure gauge, McMaster p/n 3847K71
1/8 NPT to 10-32 adapter, McMaster 2684K19

Just need to drill a 3/16" hole in the cap and add a nut.

You can watch carbonation build up and chill or pasteurize when you reach your desired CO2 level.

 

[Ike]

For anyone wanting to have a bit more control over what your carb level is before chilling or pasteurizing, you can make a simple carbonation monitor for your PET soda bottle. Much less subjective than squeezing the bottle for firmness.

YEP, that is definitely getting built when carbing up the next batch!

QUESTION: What pressure in a room-temp, carbing bottle yields a good level of carbonation in a chilled bottle? As in: what's your target pressure before pasteurization?

The issue I have had a couple times is that there's tons of pressure while carbing at room temperature, I pasteurize the bottles, chill them, and the colder cider allows more CO2 into solution. Result: flat bottles.

 

[Maylar]

YEP, that is definitely getting built when carbing up the next batch!

QUESTION: What pressure in a room-temp, carbing bottle yields a good level of carbonation in a chilled bottle? As in: what's your target pressure before pasteurization?

The issue I have had a couple times is that there's tons of pressure while carbing at room temperature, I pasteurize the bottles, chill them, and the colder cider allows more CO2 into solution. Result: flat bottles.

Honestly, I don't pasteurize. I let pressure build up at room temp then throw them in the fridge at 25-30 psi. There are charts for pressures vs CO2 levels and I like about 2.4 volumes in my ciders. But at that level you'll likely blow bottles at pasteurizing temps.

Simple enough formula -

From http://www.brainlubeonline.com/GasLawsBeer.html

P = -16.6999 - 0.0101059 T + 0.00116512 T^2 + 0.173354 T V + 4.24267 V - 0.0684226 V^2

That says you'll get to 95 psi in the bottle at 170° if you have 2.4 volumes. I don't trust beer bottles to handle that.

 

[Ike]

From http://www.brainlubeonline.com/GasLawsBeer.html

Holy COW. That link has TONS of awesome data. Thank you very much!

I see your point about high pressures during pasteurization. I've pasteurized a few small batches so far, and only had one failure (a bottle cap didn't hold up to the pressure, fortunately the bottle did so cleanup was easier than feared) but when I do pasteurize a batch I dress up like someone from a bomb disposal unit for fear of a bottle going off in my hands. One thing I think I will do is start using your pressure gauge along with the tables provided to shoot for the lower range of carbonation (maybe 1.8 - 2.0). Ciders aren't going to hold a thick, creamy head: I just need a bit of carbonation taste and a few happy bubbles trickling up from the bottom of the glass.

Thanks again! This could end up being just what my former-engineering brain needed to get the bottle carbonation of my ciders under control!

 

[Bombo80]

So I successfully pasteurized a batch of cider last night.

I let the cider completely ferment to 0.996. I then added some cider concentrate with a bit of honey, to bring the SG back up to 1.020. I let it continue to ferment until the SG was 1.014 and then bottled it. My thoughts were this would be sweet enough, but would not need the addition of priming sugar.

It took a while for them to get to the proper carb level. I think it was a little cool in the basement, so I moved them upstairs for another few days. The last tester was perfectly carbed and had a nice sweetness.

The pasteurizing method I decided to use was a bit different from the OP. I put 6 bottles in the sink, plus a tester bottle to monitor the temps. I then filled the sink with the hottest water out of the tap. I let them temper in this water until the hot bath reached the temp of 175*. I placed the 6 bottles, and the tester, into the hot bath and put a temperature probe into the tester bottle. Covered the pot and put a large folded towel on top, just in case of a bottle bomb. At this time I got the next set of 6 bottles placed in the sink to pre-heat them for the next round.

The bottles I use are old school returnable beer bottles that I have accumulated over the years. These seem to be more heavy duty than some of the new bottles that you can get at the brew supply stores.

I set the stove timer for 20 minutes, but also monitored the temperature probe as things moved along. Once the temp reached 140*, I adjusted the timer down to 10 minutes at that time. When the 10 minutes past, the probe was at 152*. With the pasteurizing info on page 7 of this thread, I was very confident the process completed successfully.

I removed them from the hot bath and set them on the counter to cool. Even though these bottles are heavy duty, I still had 2 bottle bombs. These obviously had weak glass, because they didn't explode severely like the over carbed ones I did a long time ago.

All in all, it was a successful night. Now I can get the next batch back sweetened and do this process again. I only have 4 more batches of cider to go. Should be an interesting next month or so.

 

[DirtDiver]

Kahuna, I think it is a good, simple answer to the challenge of making a sweet, carbonated, bottle conditioned cider. It's not the only approach, though. For example, you can let the cider ferment to dry, backsweeten with a non-fermentable like lactose, prime and bottle. Another option is to cold crash the bottles.

Both of those options have downsides. Backsweetening with a non-fermentable affects taste - I think using the juice's natural sweetness adds to the apple-flavor of the juice. With cold crashing, you need a lot of frig room and you can't give the cider away or take it to a party.

Will cold crashing (putting bottles in standard temp fridge) completely put yeast into dormancy? Or just slow them down? So, it it possible to eventually have a bottle bomb in a fridge?

 

[Maylar]

Will cold crashing (putting bottles in standard temp fridge) completely put yeast into dormancy? Or just slow them down? So, it it possible to eventually have a bottle bomb in a fridge?

It slows them down, and how slow depends on the yeast.

Cold crashing an active ferment would leave more yeast than clearing in secondary and back sweetening / priming. I let my ciders clear completely then sweeten with FAJC and refrigerate when carbed. I've had them in the fridge for over a month with no over carbing with S-04 yeast.

 

[gprop3]

I just tried this yesterday and lost four bottles. Any input on why would be appreciated, even though replacing those bottles is a chore i dont mind. I heated a larger enamel canning pot to 190, turned off the heat, and submerged my bottles, 22 oz each, up to the neck for ten minutes in batches of seven bottles per bath. In my first batch, i heard a loud pop and had one of the bottles pop the cap right off the top. Second batch, i reduced temp to 185 and had another bottle shatter in the pot right towards the end of the ten mins. Not sure it helps, but this was a 32 oz big boy. In the last batch I dropped the temp to 180 and I had a combo, popped cap and shatter bottle, both 22oz. Any ideas? Method notes: I did use a rag in the bottom of the pot for the first bath but got rid of it because it crowded the beers too much. I took the pot off the glass top stove burner after cutting the heat. I fermented my cider to .99 and backsweetened to 1.01 and bottled. I pasteurized 6 days after bottling, bottles sat at 63 degrees during that time. Any helpful feedback is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Use much lower temps, less carbonization, avoid thermal and physical shocks, use only bottles known to handle the pressures reached.

 

[gprop3]

Use much lower temps, less carbonization, avoid thermal and physical shocks, use only bottles known to handle the pressures reached.

What is a recommended temp outside of the 180-190 range? 165 for 30 mins? I shook a bottle up last night and the carb level doesnt seem terribly high, actually may be low. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Blue-Frog]

I am not that familiar with degrees F but just a few posts above s.o. suggested
mentioned using 175... I'd go even lower for longer if you are having trouble.
the 180-190 F. range you began using might be used for times of say 1 sec... so control would likely be difficult and very fuzzy using bottles....

start cool and increase the temperature slowly, find what works for you.

It sounds like your CO2 level wasn't that high, but how did it actually behave when poured? Determining how much carbonation is in the bottle may be difficult and not always obvious on first glance... depending upon various factors, the gas can seem "deep inside the liquid" and come out quite slowy or it can appear to "sit on the surface" and explode right away in a fizzy flury. I am still trying to find a simpl way to measure it myself.

What does it sound like when a bottle explodes?
Is it muffled or quite loud, like a balloon burst?

 

[gprop3]

I am not that familiar with degrees F but just a few posts above s.o. suggested
mentioned using 175... I'd go even lower for longer if you are having trouble.
the 180-190 F. range you began using might be used for times of say 1 sec... so control would likely be difficult and very fuzzy using bottles....

start cool and increase the temperature slowly, find what works for you.

It sounds like your CO2 level wasn't that high, but how did it actually behave when poured? Determining how much carbonation is in the bottle may be difficult and not always obvious on first glance... depending upon various factors, the gas can seem "deep inside the liquid" and come out quite slowy or it can appear to "sit on the surface" and explode right away in a fizzy flury. I am still trying to find a simpl way to measure it myself.

What does it sound like when a bottle explodes?
Is it muffled or quite loud, like a balloon burst?

Thanks for adding to this. I havent opened up a bottle yet. I was planning on waiting a week at least since I have read that some have experienced off flavors and opening immediately. When the bottles were in the pot, it sounded like a ballon but that could be accentuated by the enamel pot. When the caps popped on the two, it sounded like a decent fire cracker. Ill open up a bottle soon and post carb results. Thanks.

 

[Blue-Frog]

By all means, open a sample bottle before pasteurization.

You can designate one special bottle as a "tester" and if needed it can be repeatedly resealed for multiple "evaluations" of carb level.

By opening bottles at various times post fermentation, you can see when, how and if, things change.

Interesting comment about off flavors...
I know what I am brewing is different from what others are but I too have noticed that some slight sulfur (?) does seem to be cleared up quite quickly post pasteurization.

This is interesting as maturation is usually explained as a function of bioprocessing by the yeast.

Thanks for the description of the sound; I often work in the middle of the night and worry about waking the sleeping dragon....

Safety First

 

[torilen]

Hope I'm not repeating anything here...126 pages is a lot to trudge through for an answer. Sorry.

I have two questions, based on all of the reading I've done.

1 - Does pasteurizing change the flavor of brews much?

2 - Can you simply pasteurize straight in a pot, let it cool, then
put the brew into bottles? (I do almost entirely ciders and ginger beer and such things...without carb. So, losing carbonation is not an issue for me).

Thanks
Matthew

 

[torilen]

You know what - never mind about my question #2. I realized this morning I have a very easy way to do this. Since I'm not worried about carbonation, I can use canning jars for the pasteurization process. I was actually thinking I could bottle in canning jars, since I wouldn't have to worry about them blowing up after pasteurization. I have a ready supply of those...my wife and I can preserves A LOT during the summer. So, buying a few extra jars would be nothing...and for my gallon batches, it would probably be cheaper to do that than buy special beer bottles.

I am still curious, though - does the pasteurization change the flavor at all? How about the ABV?

 

[Blue-Frog]

Well, I guess it depends.

All I can say is that I would never choose a pasteurized beer over the same beer un pasteurized, given a fair choice.

Without exception, I found I did not like them. Not that they were bad or had off flavors... I knew much less about beer then than I do now; I actually disliked them, finding them to be bitter & repugnant in a way hard to describe. This was years ago, in Munich, so things might be different now, but I still don't like pasteurized BEER. They have a Muffled, or Dull flavor to me.

That said, I haven't done a fair side by side test with the same formula. What I brew now still tastes good pasteurized, but plan on doing an unpasteurized version side by side someday.

So for now, my best guess is, it depends.

 

[gprop3]

By all means, open a sample bottle before pasteurization.

You can designate one special bottle as a "tester" and if needed it can be repeatedly resealed for multiple "evaluations" of carb level.

By opening bottles at various times post fermentation, you can see when, how and if, things change.

Interesting comment about off flavors...
I know what I am brewing is different from what others are but I too have noticed that some slight sulfur (?) does seem to be cleared up quite quickly post pasteurization.

This is interesting as maturation is usually explained as a function of bioprocessing by the yeast.

Thanks for the description of the sound; I often work in the middle of the night and worry about waking the sleeping dragon....

Safety First

Thanks again Blue Frog. Opened a bottle Saturday night and the carb level was pretty good. Not a ton of bubbles but roughly 2/3 of the way between still and full carb. With that, I dont think these were bombs. I am leaning to temperature now. Next time, I will let the bottles sit for lower and longer than this batch. I had used a plastic bottle before pasteurizing and I think that worked really well. Next time I think I will stay in the 170s and try for 15-20 min soak. BTW, the cider turned out extremely well. Bummed I lost a few soliders pasteurizing, but next time I will adjust. You're my boy Blue.

 

[jiMithing83]

Any way to pasteurize and keg? Some of my friends like it still and some like it carbed, I'd like to backsweeten then keg and bottle half then let the other half carb.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Thats what I want to do but don't have a keg system set up yet.
($teep Learning Curve)

Couldn't you just heat it in a kettle as needed to do the job, then keg & artificially carbonate?

 

[jiMithing83]

So pour from fermenter into kettle, heat to 168, keg? I could brew it a little strong since some alcohol will boil off, might take some trial and error to figure out how much I'd lose. This is when I really wish my brew kettle had a thermometer built in.

Edit: start kegging. It's really not hard to learn, and so much easier if a process than bottling. I wish I had done it right away after starting to brew.

 

[gprop3]

So pour from fermenter into kettle, heat to 168, keg? I could brew it a little strong since some alcohol will boil off, might take some trial and error to figure out how much I'd lose. This is when I really wish my brew kettle had a thermometer built in.

Edit: start kegging. It's really not hard to learn, and so much easier if a process than bottling. I wish I had done it right away after starting to brew.

I think you backsweeten all of it then keg half and bottle half. As long as the keg is cold, you keep the yeast from working their bomb magic (and the keg can hold way more psi than a glass bottle). After a few days of the bottles sitting around I would pasteurize. I learned the hard way about temps for me but everything else I did worked extremely well. I keg my beer but havent done a cider if that helps at all.