Dry yeast starter

[mrveeno]

I don't understand all the "no starter" stuff for dry yeast. I always use a starter and have always have success. One of the reasons I do it is to make sure the yeast is good. I've purchased bad yeast before and the only supply store is about 20 miles away. I use 4 oz of DME in 1L of water fro 10 gallons. I also do this the day before, just in case it isn't good.

A few other things:
- I have always used an airlock on my yeast, as I am afraid of contamination.
- My beer is always active the night of the brew day. The blow-off tube is usually running like a motorboat the first two days. After that it tapers off, but is still usually active a week later, when it goes into the secondaries.
- My beer always comes out great and reaches the correct gravities. All of the people I share the beer with give me good feedback, even some local breweries here around Boise.

So, is all the scientific data based on lab processes and not just brewing beer?

 

[davidabcd]

I like the consistency of your process. It makes sense and seems to promote consistency.
(It might be me, but I'm not quite following your question at the end--I'm keeping in mind that it could also be rhetorical.)
I'll give my procedure which is a LOT different. And for the sake of discussion, I will assume yours is a better method.
This is just for fun.
I make five gallon extract batches. I do one or two packs of dry, depending on the style, and sprinkle directly on the wort. I am careful that the yeast is a decent date, temps are within the listed parameters.
I do a bucket, never a blow-off tube and never needed one and I reach ABVs up to 11%. The fermentation begins within four or five hours and is done usually withing three to five days. It could be longer but I never open the fermenter (unless adding something) until three weeks are up. Then into the bottles.
The beer is well-received. I like it, too. About half who drink it are savvy beer drinkers and some not so much.
I have confidence in the method, it's extremely easy and the product exceeds my expectations.
Cheers

 

[mrveeno]

Thanks for the reply. I could probably do the same thing as you do. I just use mine as a failsafe against bad yeast, and have been doing that for six years now.
I ask because I've read many articles that say not to use a starter as it reduces the number of yeast cells. If it does, I don't understand why my beer turns out so well.

 

[kh54s10]

The dry yeast manufacturers put a coating of nutrients etc on the yeast. By making a starter you are depleting these. The yeast use them in the starter instead of in your beer. There are also enough cells in the package that you don't need to do a starter to grow more cells as you do when using liquid yeast. As to the LHBS being 20 miles away, that is pretty close for most and dry yeast will last a long time. I always have dry yeast on hand. Buy more packs.

In your case, being afraid of bad yeast and doing the starter the day before, I guess, is the best way for you. I have never had a bad dry yeast. I rehydrate but with a recent notice from Fermentis that was linked in another thread, I will be pitching dry from now on.

There was a theory that pitching dry yeast into wort (in a starter or in the fermenter) was harsh on the cell wall and half of the cells will die, then they have to propagate first, then ferment the wort. I guess that has been somewhat dispelled by the Fermentis notice.

Using an airlock is probably OK since the process of making the yeast makes it less dependent on outside oxygen/aeration. It is not advised to restrict air with liquid yeast. If the starter is oxidized that is not a big concern for the beer, especially if you decant.

Does making a starter with dry yeast work? Yes. If done right it is not much different than sprinkling or rehydrating. Done wrong you are pitching yeast that are stressed.

And it is an unnecessary step.

 

[mrveeno]

kh54s10, I understand what you are saying, but if the yeast is working great, how can it be stressed? It doesn't seem like half the cells died with such active fermentation. I usually have to clean my blow-off tube and it is 5" above the level of the brew. I guess if I have it working, so be it.

 

[kh54s10]

I still think a starter is a waste of time. But was thinking about this yesterday. When I started there were far fewer varieties from far fewer labs. I was looking into rehydration or not. I was looking at a pack that said to sprinkle it on the surface of the wort. I then went searching the internet and found a video of a lab tech from the same company saying that you definitely should rehydrate the yeast. Recently there is a video from Fermentis saying not to rehydrate. Also some packs have the direction to sprinkle and others labs packs have instructions for rehydrating. So confusing.....

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

So confusing.....

If one tries to treat all dry yeast strains the same, then compares that approach to what the yeast labs say, it can be confusing.

In the late 2010s, it may be simpler to follow the yeast labs instructions when initially using the yeast.

 

[thehaze]

You should take a look at Fermentis' webpage, as they recently updated and state some things now about dry yeast and lag phase. Note however that they are only talking about their own yeast.

I never rehydrated, nor made a starter with dry yeast. The fastest start of fermentation happened under 4 hours with T-58 and S-04. I never had one fail when pitched dry. I recently used US-05 in 4 batches and Munich Classic in 1 Hefe. All started within 10 hours and got at least 79% AA up to 87% for US-05 with a low mash temp., only base malt and a bit of sugar.

My beers turn out very good, and recently even better, but not due to how I pitch yeast in the wort, but things like correct mash pH, attention paid to recipe, post boil pH.

It works either way, I will say that. And in the end, it does not matter, as long as the beer turns out the way you want it. If it does not, you will most probably want to look over your process and this will involve yeast, from amount pitched, ferme. temp., etc.

 

[corax]

Fermintis no longer recommends rehydration for their yeast, but their results do not necessarily apply to other brands of dry yeast. It's possible that different brands were dehydrated under different conditions, and might be stressed by direct pitching. I think your best bet is to follow the manufacturers' instructions.

OP, there's certainly nothing wrong with your method, and I don't think your yeast are stressed. As with everything else in homebrewing, there are a million paths to the same goal.

 

[mrveeno]

I may pitch dry for the next batch to see if there are any visual and taste differences.

 

[kh54s10]

If one tries to treat all dry yeast strains the same, then compares that approach to what the yeast labs say, it can be confusing.

In the late 2010s, it may be simpler to follow the yeast labs instructions when initially using the yeast.

But earlier in the 2010's, as I mentioned, I found differing instructions from the SAME lab. They may have cleared things up since, but.... Which instructions should you use.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Which instructions should you use.

Over the past couple of years, I have found that my beer "comes out fine " when I work with the product information sheet for the specific dry yeast strain that I'm using. With a single source, there is rarely any conflicting information.

 

[kh54s10]

Over the past couple of years, I have found that my beer "comes out fine " when I work with the product information sheet for the specific dry yeast strain that I'm using. With a single source, there is rarely any conflicting information.

Again, it is not recent but, once I did look at the information. On the package it said "Sprinkle on the surface of the wort". Then searching the internet the same manufacturer had a video where a lab tech said "You should rehydrate the yeast".

Wyeast packs of liquid yeast say it is good to inoculate 5 gallons of wort. But very few say that is good practice..??..

I guess there is no "real" answer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I guess there is no "real" answer.

I'm OK with that.

 

[ncbrewer]

Again, it is not recent but, once I did look at the information.

To me, the Fermentis information still isn't really clear. On this page https://fermentis.com/fermentation-solutions/you-create-beer/ it says "With E2U™ active dry yeasts, you can pitch directly or rehydrate; depending on your equipment, habits and feelings.". On the packet (just bought this - expires July 2020) it says "Pitching: Sprinkle into wort." On this page https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/SafAle-US-05.pdf (for US-05), it says "Direct Pitching Pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel on the surface of the wort at or above the fermentation temperature. Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available to avoid clumps. Ideally, the yeast will be added during the first part of the filling of the vessel; in which case hydration can be done at wort temperature higher than fermentation temperature, the fermenter being then filled with wort at lower temperature to bring the entire wort temperature at fermentation temperature". Rehydration instructions are given as an alternative. The instructions for dry pitch, with warm wort followed by cooler wort, seems like it would complicate a brew day, And it doesn't say how warm the wort should be initially, or whether it should be pitched before or after aerating, or how long to let it rehydrate in the warmer wort, or if it should be stirred after pitching, or if it is OK to pitch on the foam without stirring it in.

 

[mrveeno]

I guess there is no "real" answer.

I concur. I can easily sprinkle the yeast over the entire top of the wort with my big mouth fermenter, so I will try it next time for sure.

Thanks everyone.