Dry yeast questions

[corncob]

I would really like a dry English yeast that has a normal flavor profile (not neutral), floccs fast and hard, top crops, and attenuates moderately. S-04 would be perfect if not for the tartness (I envy those who don't get it). Verdant tastes great, but too weird for many styles, and it doesn't clear as fast as I like.

I am really getting my hopes up about the whc yeasts. If one of them checks all the boxes except it attenuates more than I prefer, I believe I could totally work around that one issue for the 6 months of the year it's too hot to order liquid yeast shipped here.

 

[InspectorJon]

If one of them checks all the boxes except it attenuates more than I prefer, I believe I could totally work around that one issue

Many breweries have a single house yeast and brew different styles of beer by manipulating mash and fermentation temperatures. I know you know this stuff but I am leaving it here for those that may not.

These are generalities but are good principals to understand:
Higher mash temperature = more body and less attenuation. Lower mash temp = higher attenuation and less body. Lower fermentation temperature = cleaner, less yeast character. Higher fermentation temperature = more yeast flavor contribution (esters) and maybe higher attenuation.

 

[VTMongoose]

Many breweries have a single house yeast and brew different styles of beer by manipulating mash and fermentation temperatures. I know you know this stuff but I am leaving it here for those that may not.

These are generalities but are good principals to understand:
Higher mash temperature = more body and less attenuation. Lower mash temp = higher attenuation and less body. Lower fermentation temperature = cleaner, less yeast character. Higher fermentation temperature = more yeast flavor contribution (esters) and maybe higher attenuation.

I know you know this, just vocalizing for newer brewers: the other major factor is bitterness. I've brewed more than one Belgian style that finished 1.007 or lower where it didn't have enough supporting bitterness, and esterey beers can EASILY be perceived as cloyingly sweet without enough IBU's, so mash temperature isn't the only lever you can pull.

 

[Alehouse]

Huge. I assume there's a technical reason why those types (big chewy top coppers) can't be made as dry. Because it seems like a lot of people have been begging for one for years. Verdant is the closest, but it's just to weird, flavor-wise, to fill that role.

Hi! I've tried with an ordinary bitter Mangrove Jack's M36 Liberty Bell. It was not bad at all. Very close to quality liquid yeast. I've been told to try WHC Saturated, Verdant IPA and S-33 but not tried them yet. Moreover I've been strongly reccomended Heritage English Ale from Pinnacle.

 

[Ninoid]

Many breweries have a single house yeast and brew different styles of beer by manipulating mash and fermentation temperatures. I know you know this stuff but I am leaving it here for those that may not.

These are generalities but are good principals to understand:
Higher mash temperature = more body and less attenuation. Lower mash temp = higher attenuation and less body. Lower fermentation temperature = cleaner, less yeast character. Higher fermentation temperature = more yeast flavor contribution (esters) and maybe higher attenuation.

Multiple yeast overpitch can produce a fairly clean beer even with Belgian yeast at higher fermentation temperatures (over 30'C).

 

[Zoltan]

Thanks to all who answered here. I bottled the beer today and it seems great; the final judgement will be in a few weeks when it's fermented. I only make two or three 5-gallon batches a year, and always the same kind now (a west-coast IPA), but I've gradually simplified things over the years: All DME; all hop pellets; hops in mesh bags so that they don't wind up in the fermenting bucket; the whole brew in a single bucket--no racking to a secondary fermenter for dry-hopping, which didn't seem worth all the trouble (I need to get rid of those tubes and siphons); no whirlfloc or Spanish moss (hazy beer tastes fine to me); no sweating about cooling the wort quickly--a water bath, in the sink, but no more ice--it can take several hours to cool down before pitching the yeast, but seems fine; priming for carbonation with ordinary table sugar; mostly spring-top bottles; and now dry yeast, simply sprinkled on top. Undoubtedly some of these things matter to a more discerning brewer, but the result is better than anything I can buy in a bottle at the liquor store.

One thing I noticed with the dry yeast is that the trub seems denser, if that's the right word, like a very thick and fine mud, and I was able to pour off the last of the beer without any gunk going into that last bottle.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Thanks to all who answered here. I bottled the beer today and it seems great; the final judgement will be in a few weeks when it's fermented. I only make two or three 5-gallon batches a year, and always the same kind now (a west-coast IPA), but I've gradually simplified things over the years: All DME; all hop pellets; hops in mesh bags so that they don't wind up in the fermenting bucket; the whole brew in a single bucket--no racking to a secondary fermenter for dry-hopping, which didn't seem worth all the trouble (I need to get rid of those tubes and siphons); no whirlfloc or Spanish moss (hazy beer tastes fine to me); no sweating about cooling the wort quickly--a water bath, in the sink, but no more ice--it can take several hours to cool down before pitching the yeast, but seems fine; priming for carbonation with ordinary table sugar; mostly spring-top bottles; and now dry yeast, simply sprinkled on top. Undoubtedly some of these things matter to a more discerning brewer, but the result is better than anything I can buy in a bottle at the liquor store.

One thing I noticed with the dry yeast is that the trub seems denser, if that's the right word, like a very thick and fine mud, and I was able to pour off the last of the beer without any gunk going into that last bottle.

The trub varies from strain to strain, even amongst dry yeasts.

I've made beer all ways, extract both dme and lme, partial mash, all grain. And extract with steeping grains. If I do an extract brew I always steep some grains even if it's just 200g of crystal or something. It's a quick easy step and it makes a difference in my experience. I've done split batches that confirm the difference. Better beer. Enhanced malt aroma/flavour.

Maybe give Verdant IPA yeast a go, it's another good dry yeast, for a range of beer types, and certainly for IPA.

 

[Ninoid]

Thanks to all who answered here. I bottled the beer today and it seems great; the final judgement will be in a few weeks when it's fermented. I only make two or three 5-gallon batches a year, and always the same kind now (a west-coast IPA), but I've gradually simplified things over the years: All DME; all hop pellets; hops in mesh bags so that they don't wind up in the fermenting bucket; the whole brew in a single bucket--no racking to a secondary fermenter for dry-hopping, which didn't seem worth all the trouble (I need to get rid of those tubes and siphons); no whirlfloc or Spanish moss (hazy beer tastes fine to me); no sweating about cooling the wort quickly--a water bath, in the sink, but no more ice--it can take several hours to cool down before pitching the yeast, but seems fine; priming for carbonation with ordinary table sugar; mostly spring-top bottles; and now dry yeast, simply sprinkled on top. Undoubtedly some of these things matter to a more discerning brewer, but the result is better than anything I can buy in a bottle at the liquor store.

One thing I noticed with the dry yeast is that the trub seems denser, if that's the right word, like a very thick and fine mud, and I was able to pour off the last of the beer without any gunk going into that last bottle.

I would suggest changing your routine regarding dry yeast. I used to just add it to the chilled wort for years, but since I started rehydrating it before that, the beer has really improved. It used to take up to 24 hours for the airlock to kick in, but now that I rehydrate it, the airlock kicks in within a few hours. Honestly, I started rehydrating dry yeast because I was using some bags of dry yeast that were over a year past their expiration date, but I found that the results were really better that way, and now I rehydrate the dry yeast before adding it to the wort every time.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

making beer at home: "It's not rocket science, unless you want it to be!"

I only make two or three 5-gallon batches a year, and always the same kind now (a west-coast IPA), but I've gradually simplified things over the years:

All DME; all hop pellets; hops in mesh bags so that they don't wind up in the fermenting bucket; the whole brew in a single bucket--no racking to a secondary fermenter for dry-hopping, which didn't seem worth all the trouble (I need to get rid of those tubes and siphons); no whirlfloc or Spanish moss (hazy beer tastes fine to me); no sweating about cooling the wort quickly--a water bath, in the sink, but no more ice--it can take several hours to cool down before pitching the yeast, but seems fine; priming for carbonation with ordinary table sugar; mostly spring-top bottles; and now dry yeast, simply sprinkled on top.

Undoubtedly some of these things matter to a more discerning brewer, but the result is better than anything I can buy in a bottle at the liquor store.

(emphasis added)

One question: what is your source for water (tap? well? bottled?) and do you know its mineral content?

 

[ncbrewer]

I've gradually simplified things over the years:

I've gradually simplified my brewing, too - using many of the shortcuts you mentioned. By carefully researching and testing each simplification, my beer is actually the best I've ever brewed. And by less handling, there is less chance for oxidation and contamination. Charlie Papazian encourages us to "Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew" - great advice.

 

[Zoltan]

One question: what is your source for water (tap? well? bottled?) and do you know its mineral content?

Tap water. I live in the east San Francisco Bay Area; our water comes from the Sierra Nevada and is very good. I'm sure the water quality make a huge difference in beer, and some places I've been have terrible-tasting tap water; I'm lucky to live here.

It used to take up to 24 hours for the airlock to kick in, but now that I rehydrate it, the airlock kicks in within a few hours.

I pitched before going to bed and the next morning it was bubbling. I think it took about 12 hours to really get going, but I'm not that pressed for time! But if you think it makes a difference in taste, I'll give it a try.

 

[InspectorJon]

East Bay water has minimal mineral content. Mostly snow melt and rain runoff.

I think extract is already mineralized. If you ever decide to do all grain brewing you might want to look at salt/mineral additions appropriate for the style beer you’re brewing.

Whether you are lucky to live in the San Francisco Bay Area should probably be reserved for the debate forum. Bay Area expat living in the foothills.

 

[Zoltan]

If you ever decide to do all grain brewing

That would probably be on the 12th of Never, but I appreciate the note. The water tastes good, and is sanitized with chloramine, which has no taste, instead of chlorine. Surely the taste is the main thing. I could find out the minerals from the water company's website, but as far as I know, yeast metabolize sugars and make alcohol and CO2, so I'm not sure what minerals have to do with it. I guess I'll read up on in in "How to Brew," but like any hobby, homebrew seems to have its share of pesudoscience (perhaps part of the fun!), and Mr. Palmer is not entirely immune from that.

 

[Zoltan]

My water: hardness 19mg/L; total dissolved solids 43.3mg/L.

 

[Miraculix]

That would probably be on the 12th of Never, but I appreciate the note. The water tastes good, and is sanitized with chloramine, which has no taste, instead of chlorine. Surely the taste is the main thing. I could find out the minerals from the water company's website, but as far as I know, yeast metabolize sugars and make alcohol and CO2, so I'm not sure what minerals have to do with it. I guess I'll read up on in in "How to Brew," but like any hobby, homebrew seems to have its share of pesudoscience (perhaps part of the fun!), and Mr. Palmer is not entirely immune from that.

Chloramine is very bad for brewing. I suppose you treat your water with campden?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@Zoltan : thanks for sharing your process and answering a few questions about it.

Your goal seems have to be getting to a simple process for a single style that you brew a couple of times a year. In the spirit of that goal (make it simpler) I have nothing to offer. And ...

... you stated that your result is better than anything you can buy. Going forward, the simplest thing may be to keep doing what you're doing.

 

[An Ankoù]

That would probably be on the 12th of Never, but I appreciate the note. The water tastes good, and is sanitized with chloramine, which has no taste, instead of chlorine. Surely the taste is the main thing. I could find out the minerals from the water company's website, but as far as I know, yeast metabolize sugars and make alcohol and CO2, so I'm not sure what minerals have to do with it. I guess I'll read up on in in "How to Brew," but like any hobby, homebrew seems to have its share of pesudoscience (perhaps part of the fun!), and Mr. Palmer is not entirely immune from that.

You cant brew with chloramine in the water. Tasteless or not, as soon as you boil the wort with the hops you'll get chlorophenols forming, with a very low taste threshold and the beer will be irredeemably ruined.
See miraculix' post and treat the water with MBS or Campden tablets to remove chloramine.
Loads and loads of pseudo-science, old wives tales and dodgy alchemy in brewing. Not aware that Palmer is guilty of contributing to this, though.

 

[Ninoid]

You cant brew with chloramine in the water. Tasteless or not, as soon as you boil the wort with the hops you'll get chlorophenols forming, with a very low taste threshold and the beer will be irredeemably ruined.
See miraculix' post and treat the water with MBS or Campden tablets to remove chloramine.
Loads and loads of pseudo-science, old wives tales and dodgy alchemy in brewing. Not aware that Palmer is guilty of contributing to this, though.

I don't know if all tap water has chloramine. I don't treat my tap water, nor do I boil it before using it, but I use it straight from the tap. I haven't noticed any bad tastes or any chemical taste in my beer. I think the truth is that if tap water is good for drinking, it's good for beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think the truth is that if tap water is good for drinking, it's good for beer.

In the USA, and for many people, this is generally true. But when it's not, it often results in a bad beer.

Water quality varies based on location. Change my mind.

 

[Zoltan]

You cant brew with chloramine in the water. Tasteless or not, as soon as you boil the wort with the hops you'll get chlorophenols forming, with a very low taste threshold and the beer will be irredeemably ruined.

I have never gotten irredeemably ruined beer with a medicinal taste (Palmer), but I will try Campden tablets next time. It could be that my water doesn't need as much chloramine; either that or I don't have very discerning taste!

 

[Ninoid]

In the USA, and for many people, this is generally true. But when it's not, it often results in a bad beer.

Water quality varies based on location. Change my mind.

And I was convinced of that. We brew beer at a friend's house two or three times with his tap water. The dark beer was still drinkable, but the light beer was very bad. It was clear that his tap water was too hard. I later found out that his tap water was four times harder than mine.

 

[An Ankoù]

I have never gotten irredeemably ruined beer with a medicinal taste (Palmer), but I will try Campden tablets next time. It could be that my water doesn't need as much chloramine; either that or I don't have very discerning taste!

If you're brewing pre-hopped, extract kits, with, perhaps, the addition of dry hops at the end of fermentation, then there won't be a problem as you're not boiling the hops in the chlorinated water. I just wanted to warn you that things will be different when you change to all-grain.
When I moved to France, I lost two or three brews because the water was chlorinated intermittently. It took me far too long to figure out what was going on. All that waste for want of a pinch of MBS.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If you're brewing pre-hopped, extract kits, [...]

Back in #36, OP mentions DME. Based on OPs location (CA, USA), the common brand is Briess. Muntons is available at some online stores. Williams Brewing currently stocks another brand.

 

[Zoltan]

Not using prehopped kit. Briess pilsner DME, hop pellets. What's wrong with Briess?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If it's making good beer for you, nothing is wrong with it.

Rows 140 to 143 of the "0. Instructions" tab in the BrunWater1.25 spreadsheet has some information on mineral content in DME. There's a topic over in the brewers friend forum that has ppm values (Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, S04) for Briess and Muntons. Are the numbers accurate? . I found that the numbers were 'close enough' so I could do mineral additions to make a good beer better.

 

[Zoltan]

Did some Googling on campden tablets and found advice all over the map: necessary vs. not needed, 1 pill per gallon vs. 1 pill per 20 gallons, throw it in the boil vs. heat destroys it, dissolve it the night before because it takes a long time to dissolved vs add it right before pitching vs inhibits yeast, etc., etc. Palmer doesn't say when to add it.

 

[worlddivides]

Did some Googling on campden tablets and found advice all over the map: necessary vs. not needed, 1 pill per gallon vs. 1 pill per 20 gallons, throw it in the boil vs. heat destroys it, dissolve it the night before because it takes a long time to dissolved vs add it right before pitching vs inhibits yeast, etc., etc. I guess I'll see what Palmer has to say.

That's not all over the map. It's 1 tablet per gallon for stabilizing wine. It's 1 tablet per 20 gallons for getting rid of chlorine and chloramine in water (for beer). It's necessary if you have noticeable amounts of chlorine and chloramine in your water. It's not needed if you don't. I've never heard of anyone saying to dissolve it the night before. It literally takes less than 1 second to get rid of chlorine and chloramine. It's unbelievably fast. Like, lightning speed. You might have seen people saying to put your water out overnight so the chlorine can offgas, but that's assuming you don't use Campden tablets and it's also assuming your water only has chlorine and not chloramine. I've also never heard of adding it at anytime other than before the mash (for beer, that is. For wine, it's added before bottling it, though some people might use Campden for other purposes than getting rid of chlorine/chloramine, but that's irrelevant for this discussion).

I've never seen any advice all over the map about Campden, really. It's pretty well established and well understood.

That said, if you've been making good beer without using it, then you probably don't need to.

 

[Zoltan]

I think they were saying it's hard to dissolve, so soak the night before.

What does that mean, "before the mash"? I boil hops and DME in about three gallons, cool that, then add cold water to make the 5 gallons, then pitch. Most convenient would be to add it right before pitching.

 

[worlddivides]

I think they were saying it's hard to dissolve, so soak the night before.

What does that mean, "before the mash"? I boil hops and DME in about three gallons, cool that, then add cold water to make the 5 gallons, then pitch. Most convenient would be to add it right before pitching.

You're supposed to crush it before adding it. Use the flat end of a knife or something similar to crush it and it very easily turns into a powder that dissolves instantaneously. I can imagine if you didn't crush it beforehand, it could take time to dissolve, but it's very easy to crush and dissolves in no time at all.

"Before the mash" means before turning on the heat. If you're using extract, then there is no mash, so "before the mash" just means "before doing anything." Basically, once you've prepared all the water you'll be using, you add the Campden. The Campden removes the chlorine and chloramine. Then you proceed with your normal procedure as usual. What makes "before pitching" more convenient than "before the mash/before adding the extract"?

If you're using DME and don't notice any chlorine flavor, then I'd just not bother using Campden tablets. If you aren't aware of there being a problem, then maybe there isn't one. Maybe you live in an area with extremely low chlorine/chloramine use that makes Campden unnecessary. Personally, though, it'd be worth trying just to see if there's been a chloramine/chlorine flavor in your beers that you just haven't noticed up until now because you've become used to it and once it's gone, you tell the difference.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Here in Houston the water is rife with it. And Campden is highly over utilized IMO.

Simply filtering your water won't stop chloramines. Think of chloramines as chlorine-mines. They do not activate until Co2 is released by any organic matter, to stop germs from proliferating and causing disease. They have no smell or taste to be detected. They are chlorine encased in a biodegradable shell so to speak.



On every brew I make, I treat the mash water with enough campden tablets that have been crushed to a powder. For 6.5 Gal I actually use a penny to measure it. I use just enough campden powder to cover Lincoln's head. Using this measure, yeast is not affected, as well as beer taste in any way.



This is to stop the effect of chloramines, which activate at the time a gas is released (Co2) by yeast.



If you didn't have chloramines before in the public water, the city may have started this activation recently.