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Dry hopping with kveik

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jdutton24

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Doing a fresh squeezed semi clone, I really wanted to try kveik and since it's dead summer here I figured why not, recipe calls for dry hopping 2 weeks in secondary but they was with west coast yeast, my question is how should I dry hop sice kveik is so fast fermenting? Follow recipe? Toss in at high krausen and dry hop for 2 weeks with no secondary? Or just toss in high krausen go for 7 days? 5 days? I don't want the yeast to flocc out? I'd like it not to be hazy really, when and what to add?
 

BongoYodeler

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Some folks report a strange taste dry hopping at higher temps, so that may be worth considering. I just did an ipa with Voss Kveik which I fermented around 85° and it was done in 72 hours. At that point I put the fermenter in the garage overnight where ambient temps dropped to the low 60's or upper 50's. I dry hopped the next morning. Sampled while kegging and it tasted great. I'll know for sure later today when I draw my first pint.
 

hopkincr

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I am doing a West Coast ale right now using A43 Loki. I fermented in my garage where temps are ~80’s and it was done in 48 h. I moved it to the basement (70 degrees) and just added my dry hops and will bottle next weekend. So, kept it warm for fermentation then cooler temps for dry hopping. Not done this before so I’ll see how it turns out.
 

Tyler B

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I just started drinking my Voss Kveik (dry yeast) pale ale. I intended to dry hop at high krausen, but most of the krausen had already fallen when I opened it up less than 24 hours after pitching the yeast. I threw the hops in, let it sit for a couple days longer, then kegged. Now, two weeks after brewing, it's finally tasting good.
 

CascadesBrewer

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I have only brewed one beer with Kveik (Voss), but I let it ferment for 3 days at 85F then cold crashed and dry hopped cold (at 40F) on day 4. I then kegged the beer on day 6. The beer turned out wonderful. It had a solid haze, but I finished off the entire keg 4 weeks after brew day (3 weeks in the keg).
 

AzOr

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I am doing a West Coast ale right now using A43 Loki. I fermented in my garage where temps are ~80’s and it was done in 48 h. I moved it to the basement (70 degrees) and just added my dry hops and will bottle next weekend. So, kept it warm for fermentation then cooler temps for dry hopping. Not done this before so I’ll see how it turns out.
Good to know. I just picked up a pouch of Loki this week. I’m planning on brewing a rosemary IPA. The recipe calls for dry herbing but I may throw in some hops as well. I’ll report back.
 

couchsending

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Don’t dry hop at elevated temps

Wait until fermentation is done then add your dry hops.

There’s really no need to dry hop at high krausen for any beer. The risk of off flavor and aroma compound development is much greater than any perceived “biotransformation” might be.
 

Tyler B

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Don’t dry hop at elevated temps

Wait until fermentation is done then add your dry hops.

There’s really no need to dry hop at high krausen for any beer. The risk of off flavor and aroma compound development is much greater than any perceived “biotransformation” might be.
This is fascinating as it seems to go against most of the stuff I've been reading lately. I have heard people prefer to add dry hops at lower temps, so I'm wondering if kveik fermenting at high temps is why you suggest this? Or when you say "all beers", do you mean all styles, yeasts, etc?

I'm not disagreeing with you just interested in hearing about your opinion and experience.
 

couchsending

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This is fascinating as it seems to go against most of the stuff I've been reading lately. I have heard people prefer to add dry hops at lower temps, so I'm wondering if kveik fermenting at high temps is why you suggest this? Or when you say "all beers", do you mean all styles, yeasts, etc?

I'm not disagreeing with you just interested in hearing about your opinion and experience.
Adding dry hops (especially a significant amount) mid fermentation is really a waste of hops. So many of the compounds you want in the beer are either going to get blown off by Co2 during fermentation or dragged down by the yeast when they flocc. Yes you might create some sort of tropical flavor or aroma (depending on the yeast and the hops) but you also run a greater risk of creating off flavors or aromas. Hops can be rather toxic to yeast, especially the high alpha varieties. You run the risk of incomplete fermentation and poor diacetyl/acetaldehyde pickup. Long contact times between significant amount of hops and yeast especially at elevated temps (normal ale fermentation) can lead to autolysis due to hop oils (mainly alpha acids) coating yeast cell walls and causing them to burst. At the crazy high Kviek yeast ferm temps it’s even worse.

This autolysis might not present itself as the meaty flavor/aroma you think of when that word is thrown around but more as rotting or “overripe” fruit/vegetables when it interacts with the mercaptans in hops. It’s present in oh so many modern IPAs that are pummeled with hops during fermentation. Some people don’t seem to mind it or can’t pick it out but once you can it’s blatantly obvious and you won’t want it in your beer.

Let fermentation finish before adding your hops. Ideally if you have the gear to do so, without introducing significant amounts of O2, soft crash to temps in the 50s (or whatever temps it takes to get the yeast to start to flocc), remove the yeast and add your dry hops at the lower temps. If you can’t do that then just add them at the tail end of fermentation. Just keep an eye out for hop creep! Especially with Mosaic, Amarillo, Centennial, or El Dorado.

With most Kviek yeasts you’re going to be creating so many esters that will probably trample the hops anyways (especially if almost all of the hop aroma/flavor is blown off by adding them during fermentation).
 

BreweyMcHops

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For whatever reason, as much as im liking this kveik thing....i want my hops back!!
Im not achieving anything like the flavour and aroma in-glass that i was with the stock standard yeast from coopers cans
I can deal with the thick haze but i want my hops back. A lot if what we hear is total BS i reckon , you need to leave it 3 full days ,starting at almost 40 and not dropping below 30, then dry hop for only 48 hours . If you dry hop 1 full week in kveik ( outside the fridge) all thats left is a weak bitter grass taste

All these 1 and 2 day beers getting talked about are unhopped beer type thick stew
 

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I made a Kveik (Voss dry yeast) IPA and forgot to dry hop it in the fermenter. So, I added 2 oz. of pellet hops in the keg in a weighted paint straining bag. Tasted delicious and very hoppy/fruity. I never removed the hops from the keg and it took around 6 weeks to drain the keg. No grass flavors at all.
 
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I have used kveik, both voss and hornindale, in recipes that i have brewed with say a24 or laIII ... i do prefer the a24 in the final product but i dont feel any major muting of the hops. i just kegged last night a batch of neipa using voss and dry hopped with citra and strata. and i only did about 1oz per gallon for the dry hop. plenty of flavor and aroma, ill know more in a couple days but so far so good.
 

BreweyMcHops

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Don’t dry hop at elevated temps

Wait until fermentation is done then add your dry hops.

There’s really no need to dry hop at high krausen for any beer. The risk of off flavor and aroma compound development is much greater than any perceived “biotransformation” might be.
I reckon thats spot on, in terms of too early and to warm , dry hopping. If you leave a fat sack of hops in there at 35 degrees, with a still partially active kveik yeast for 5 days.. you may as well have boiled it , you are left with 25% of the aroma that you would end up with if you had done 4 days at 20 degrees with a regular ale yeast ( that had already fermed' out)
 

BreweyMcHops

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I need to draw a graph ....to clear the air on this kveik fast fermentation time business . There is a big ol' curve to it .

What it does , is put on an incredible charge. No lag time, its quick tempered and starts up quick, hammering through maybe 85 or 90% of fermentation in 3 days if you have it around 35-40 degrees.

BUT ......that's the thing...It does NOT " ferment in 2 or 3 days" how did you have days to determine that with hydrometer testing?? You cant look into the future with them they only tell you what the brew has done till that moment.

What happens is people see a massive charge, and then the kveik gets tired and slows right down , and people see that its achieved a passable ABV at that moment in time , and they put the two together and think its finished.

Its not. Kveik will creep on with that residual 10% , and that bit of residual sugar that needs to clean up over a couple more days.

You can notice it in the way it eats a lot of hop aroma when late dry hopping , its still fermenting along slowwwlyy.
 

lucuella

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Adding dry hops (especially a significant amount) mid fermentation is really a waste of hops. [...] This autolysis might not present itself as the meaty flavor/aroma you think of when that word is thrown around but more as rotting or “overripe” fruit/vegetables when it interacts with the mercaptans in hops. It’s present in oh so many modern IPAs that are pummeled with hops during fermentation. Some people don’t seem to mind it or can’t pick it out but once you can it’s blatantly obvious and you won’t want it in your beer.
[...]
I've been complaining about kveik recently. I have a toxic relationship with it :) On one hand it provides very reliable results when it's combined with lacto to produce fast sours, but when I ferment clean beers I notice that it not only eats the hop but also the malt flavors. I've done comparisons of beers fermented with Sigmund's Voss kveik and English yeast strains, and I always notice drier and mild flavor results with kveik (it eats sweet, caramel, toffee, and other delicate malt flavors).

I wonder if this noticeable drop of hops and malt flavors are related with pitching rates, or even kveik strains. Seriously, I recently brewed a 5 gallons batch of an IPA where I used 100 grams (3.5 oz) of Idaho 7 and 50 grams ( ~2 oz) of Citra in whirlpool, and 56 grams (2 oz) of Galaxy on dry hop at cool temperatures, and I ended up with a pale ale that tastes more like a moderately hoppy golden ale. Like @BreweyMcHops said, I want my hops back!
 

BreweyMcHops

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Oh no i think your right it IS eating my malt flavour too, im bottling a stout with Voss today...imagine an non-malty stout...
.. im a bit worried now,
 

DuncB

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Maybe Double dry hop to get the best outcome?
Some hops in once the krausen has fallen and then stop adding heat after another day and slow fall to ambient temp and say day 6 add more hops at the cooler temp or if needed chilled to say 14 celsius depending on the ambient. Then keg a week or so later.

It's a very different beast to tame!

My last stout very good and clean ( not dry hopped though). David Heath does have a good video about bottling with Kveik because the yeast can drop out so fast leaving little for the bottle conditioning, might be worth a look.
 

Alan Reginato

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I read an article about dry hopping and the oil extraction demands around 36 hours. But I haven't found it now. So, you can add your hops just before cold crash, to avoid biotransformation and hop enzymes breaking down residual carbohydrates.
 

BreweyMcHops

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Maybe Double dry hop to get the best outcome?
Some hops in once the krausen has fallen and then stop adding heat after another day and slow fall to ambient temp and say day 6 add more hops at the cooler temp or if needed chilled to say 14 celsius depending on the ambient. Then keg a week or so later.

It's a very different beast to tame!

My last stout very good and clean ( not dry hopped though). David Heath does have a good video about bottling with Kveik because the yeast can drop out so fast leaving little for the bottle conditioning, might be worth a look.
Unfortubately, having to spend and add double on hops to get the same result is the problem I'm raising, not the solution to it 😀

Also, more " kung fu" because in reality when you try it yourself hands-on, kveik carbonates bottles HARD , and is far less predictable than regular ale yeasts. Im generally getting HARD carbonated bottles like rocks at about 20 hours from bottling . I actually wound back my priming sugar rate , when i bulk prime a kveik because it carbonates SO hard.

Exactly the opposite is true to what the "wize old masters on the mountaintop" preach, kveik actually leaves a plenty of yeast in a beer, its not neutral at all it has a very distinct strong flavour and character, and carbonates HARD. It does not ferment completley in 1-2 days it takes a solid week to properly finish fermenting.

The myths are coming crashing down like its UFC1 in 1993 . We are re-writing the rules, Its an all out brew-for-all , lets get stuck into it fellas!!🍻🍺👍😀
 

DuncB

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I agree, I'm only happy that it's fermented around a week. Was worried at first when I used Kveik because I thought there was something wrong when I still had activity after more than four days and a slow gravity drop during that time. Not dry hopped either so it wasn't hop creep either.

I haven't bottle conditioned any of my Kveik beers just pointing out some further clouds for the horizon.
 

CascadesBrewer

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The myths are coming crashing down like its UFC1 in 1993 . We are re-writing the rules, Its an all out brew-for-all , lets get stuck into it fellas!!🍻🍺👍😀
I am not sure what your Kveik experience is but it seems like you joined the forum just to post negative things about Kveik. I have only brewed one Kveik beer myself (it was based off the AHA Big Brew recipe made with Voss and was a wonderful hoppy and flavorful beer...cold crashed around day 4 and in the keg by day 7 after dry hopping). I have several friends that brew beers from hoppy IPAs to farmhouse style to clean lagers to decent stouts with Kveik. I do not believe that Kveik is the yeast to replace all yeasts, but it is definitely a unique and versatile strain that is capable of producing great beers.

If you don't enjoy Kveik, that is perfectly fine. It is not at the top of my list of yeasts. If you want to learn more about Kveik and how to use it there are plenty of resources out there. I find David Heath's YouTube channel to be a wealth of knowledge on Kveik brewing.
 

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I find this thread quite interesting. I have not found many other places where people are talking about how Kveik yeasts sometimes mute hop flavor and aroma. This has also been my experience, but not in every case and not with every hop variety.

I have been playing around with Kveik yeasts for about six months and I still feel like I do not really have a handle on them. So far I have used Voss and Lutra. With the Voss, I have made the same American Pale Ale recipe on four different occasions. It is a single hop recipe and each time I used a different hop to try to get a better feel for what the Voss was contributing. The hops used were Sabro, Cascade, Southern Passion, and Centennial. The Centennial and Cascade batches were very similar. I did not taste or smell much of what I normally expect from those hops. Instead, these batches tasted and smelled like the orange that I think people typically associate with Voss and that was about it. It wasn't bad- it was quite good, but I do feel like the orange yeast esters muted what I normally expect in aroma and flavor from the cascade and centennial hops. The Sabro batch, however, was really remarkable! The orange was still there, but it took a back seat to what the Sabro hops brought to the beer. The way that Sabro interacted with Voss produced something that was new and fantastic for me! I will make that one again! Then there was the southern passion... I almost don't want to include this one in my reporting because it was bad and I do not think that it was Kveik's fault; I think that the hops were old or oxidized or something. I don't know. I had never used southern passion before so maybe that is just how they taste and I don't like them.

The Lutra batches have been more varied in terms of recipe. First, I made a bohemian pilsner. It turned out really nice and drinkable. Was it exactly what I would expect from this style? Not totally. However, it was really tasty and the Saaz hops were obvious. Then I made a Gose with Lutra that is still fermenting right now, but the gravity sample tasted promising. And finally, I did an IPA with Lutra that I kegged last night. I will give it more time in the keg before I make any real judgement on it but I will say that, as of right now, it has VERY LITTLE aroma and the hop flavor is not what I would expect from the types and amounts used in this IPA (chinook, mosaic, centennial, Amarillo).

In the end, I really do not know what is causing the varying results that I am experiencing. It could be my methods, it could be that different hops work better with this yeast, it could be that this yeast is a terrible choice for some beer styles. I hope that others will come along and discuss their experience and results with Kveik yeast in hoppy beers because that could certainly help to broaden my understanding.

Sorry for the long post. I just wanted to be thorough.
 
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I have used it several times with a lot of success, as i mentioned in an earlier post above. the one i dry hopped at rate of 1oz per gallon turned out fantastic. i under pitch and ferment around 90 with some nutrients also, this gets me my best results. i hold 90 for about 3 days then let it free fall to room temp, after a few more days i do a soft crash to 50 and hold it 24 to 36 hours then bring it back to 60 and dry hop. 3 days later i cold crash for a day or 2 and keg it up which is usually 2 weeks from brew day. i dont change my recipe at all when using it and get good hop flavor and aroma. this is my personal experience but i will put some emphasis on stating that under pitching, fermenting hot, and using some nutrient are what really make a difference when using this yeast.

Cheers!
 

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I have used it several times with a lot of success, as i mentioned in an earlier post above. the one i dry hopped at rate of 1oz per gallon turned out fantastic. i under pitch and ferment around 90 with some nutrients also, this gets me my best results. i hold 90 for about 3 days then let it free fall to room temp, after a few more days i do a soft crash to 50 and hold it 24 to 36 hours then bring it back to 60 and dry hop. 3 days later i cold crash for a day or 2 and keg it up which is usually 2 weeks from brew day. i dont change my recipe at all when using it and get good hop flavor and aroma. this is my personal experience but i will put some emphasis on stating that under pitching, fermenting hot, and using some nutrient are what really make a difference when using this yeast.

Cheers!
I ferment in the low 80's typically. Maybe I will try it a little warmer. It seems, though, that warmer would create even more of the esters that I feel cover up, or at least compete with, hop flavors. I do like the orange esters from Voss, but I would like for them to be just a part of the flavor profile and not take over.

As for yeast nutrient, I use diammonium phosphate because that is what I have on hand. Would you recommend a different nutrient?

As for under pitching, I pitch half a pack of a Lallemand Voss into 5 gallons because that is what I have seen recommended on other threads. Should I pitch less than that. And again, does the lower pitch rate cause the yeast to produce more esters? That is the opposite of what I think I want.

I guess I am looking for the best way to control the ester production of Kveik- specifically the orange esters in Voss. Really, I do appreciate them- I just want to tone them down a bit so that the hops can shine a little more. I don't know if this is even possible with this strain. I am just wondering
 

CascadesBrewer

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Sorry for the long post. I just wanted to be thorough.
Good info! Thanks for sharing.

under pitching, fermenting hot, and using some nutrient are what really make a difference when using this yeast
That is the advice I saw before I brewed my only Voss beer, so I might have gotten lucky and followed a good plan.

after a few more days i do a soft crash to 50 and hold it 24 to 36 hours then bring it back to 60 and dry hop
Have you tried adding dry hops cold? I want to cycle back to trying it more, but I had good luck with the 3 batches I tried dry hopping cool/cold. I think one was at 50F and the others were around 40F. It seem very counter intuitive that adding hops to cold beer would be advantageous, but it seems to bring out more of the hop flavors. There are several good articles out there. Scott Janish's article is a good place to start with some links to other resources: A Case for Short And Cool Dry Hopping - Scott Janish

Or have you found advantages to dry hopping at 60F?
 
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@raymarkson i typically use it in my NEIPA where i am looking for the orange esters. i pitch 1 pack of omega voss in a 15gal batch and yes diammonium phosphate is fine, i have fermented in the 80s with good results i just like pushing it to 90 and the esters are probably more present because of that but i dont feel they take the stage, i have used it with different combos of citra, mosaic, galaxy, strata, sabro and simcoe for the dry hop but always at a 1oz per gallon ratio which is at the low end for a neipa.

@CascadesBrewer I have never added them lower then 55 in the fermenter but i have put them in a hop canister thing suspended in the serving keg (so 38f) and i felt i got great results with that beer. I did this to try different hop combos, so when i brew i get 3 kegs and each keg had a different hop combo in it to see what i liked best. citra/sabro, citra/galaxy, and citra/strata. i kept the citra as a constant because i know what to expect. the others were my first time using and personally i liked the galaxy beer the best. but my typical process is to let my hops warm up to room temp before adding them, they dont seem to drop to the bottom as fast this way and i keep it around 60f, not that i can say there is an advantage this is just what i have done. I have nothing against going colder and think it is a good practice i just have not done it to this point yet... yet.
 

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let my hops warm up to room temp before adding them, they dont seem to drop to the bottom as fast this way

This is good advice! Thank you! I have dry hopped in the low 60's, but I would add my hops directly from the freezer to the fermenter without letting them get to room temperature first. And, I have noticed that they sink to the bottom pretty quickly. I suppose this is why. Wow! I can't believe that I have not thought of that before. I will certainly incorporate that bit of wisdom into my future dry hopping practices. Thanks!
 

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There are a lot of kveiks and they can produce wildly different results. Voss is the most widely available right now, so most people seem to assume it's "the" kveik or that all kveiks behave like Voss, but this is completely untrue. And you get different results with the original cultures that contain bacteria than you do with the Omega isolates. Point being, you can't generalize about kveik, the strains are more different from each other than the strains of British yeasts are.

The second point here is that you make a different beer when you use a different yeast. That might seem obvious to most, but here we are talking about making a NEIPA with Voss and not getting the same result as a British yeast produces. Would you make a Saison with Nottingham? Yeast character is part of the beer style.

Kveiks are for explorers. The "standard" flavor descriptors for them are based on how they express in traditional farmhouse brewing, and we don't get the same results with our homebrew techniques. They are exciting to use precisely because they create very different results than the yeasts we are used to.
 
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