Dry hopping in serving keg

[faithie999]

apologies if there is a thread that addresses this, but Search didn't locate one.

I had always followed advice to dry hop no more than a week in the fermenter, then transfer to the serving keg.

lately I've seen discussions about dry hopping in the serving keg.

how does long-term dry hopping in the keg square with the previous conventional wisdom of 3-7 day dry hopping?

I would really like to move to keg hopping.

thanks!

 

[day_trippr]

The difference is the temperature: in the past I would drop a couple of ounces of whole hops in a sanitized nylon bag inside an already chilled keg, lid it and carbonate it, and leave the bag in until the keg kicked - weeks later. It worked pretty well and never got any grassy or otherwise "off" notes from it. Haven't done it in many years, mostly because the neipas I've been brewing pack plenty of hops from birth and don't need keg hopping or Randalls

Cheers!

 

[AlexKay]

It’s my go-to method for dry hopping. Ferment for ~2 weeks, transfer to a purged keg that’s full of hops and equipped with a floating dip tube, and then cool immediately to serving temperature. It takes a few days to taste its best, and stays good for at least two or three weeks.

 

[day_trippr]

I always used whole flower because I didn't think there'd be anything that could corral pellet mush well enough to not end up drinking it. And now whole flower has become almost a "special order" thing, so I'm guessing you use pellets. Does the FDT render the issue moot?

Cheers!

 

[faithie999]

There's a thread here somewhere that I read the other day that got me started on this idea. people were giving good reviews to the FlotIt 2.0 floating dip tube. So I had amazon man bring me one yesterday and tomorrow I'll transfer from the fermenter to the keg and we'll see what happens when I tap it.

 

[tdf]

I always used whole flower because I didn't think there'd be anything that could corral pellet mush well enough to not end up drinking it. And now whole flower has become almost a "special order" thing, so I'm guessing you use pellets. Does the FDT render the issue moot?

Cheers!

I've used these: https://www.morebeer.com/products/stainless-steel-hop-tube-chain.html with the basic floating dip tubes as well as a standard dip tube without issues.

Scott Janish does the opposite and dry hops loose with a stainless filter around the dip tube: http://scottjanish.com/my-favorite-way-to-dry-hop-loose-in-primary-and-kegs/

These days I keg hop loose with a flotit 2.0. I think I get better hop utilization compared to the hop tube and the beer is just as clear.

 

[AlexKay]

Yep, pellets and a FlotIt 2.0, works great.

I haven’t used the HopStoppers that go in a keg, but the guy who makes them is winding down and selling them for $10 right now.

 

[RM-MN]

apologies if there is a thread that addresses this, but Search didn't locate one.

I had always followed advice to dry hop no more than a week in the fermenter, then transfer to the serving keg.

lately I've seen discussions about dry hopping in the serving keg.

how does long-term dry hopping in the keg square with the previous conventional wisdom of 3-7 day dry hopping?

I would really like to move to keg hopping.

thanks!

There have been multiple posts about getting vegetal flavors from leaving hops in the fermenter for more that a week and I paid attention but one time....life got in the way and I didn't get the beer bottled for more than 2 weeks with the hops in the fermenter...and it tasted fine. It may matter which hops you use or some people's senses are more developed than mine but I've quit worrying about the "only a week in the fermenter" and dry hop for as long as is convenient.

 

[faithie999]

thanks for all the feedback. I will toss the hops in the keg this morning and get ready to try it in a week or two.

 

[mac_1103]

I haven’t used the HopStoppers that go in a keg, but the guy who makes them is winding down and selling them for $10 right now.

Out of stock. In fact, every HopStopperr is out of stock. I hope the guys enjoys his retirement.

 

[LCBA]

I’ve done it plenty of times with no ill effects. If you are worried about leaving them in the keg too long, you can suspend the Hops in a bag with a piece of dental floss (clean off the mint flavor first), so that when the beer level gets below a certain point, the bag will no longer be submerged. You might need a sous vide magnet as a weight, or something similar.

 

[rallenhall]

I dry hop with pellets in a stainless tea ball that rests on the keg bottom for the entire time of consumption. Have never noted any overt grassy flavors.

 

[JoeSpartaNJ]

I keg hop in a 1-gallon paint strainer bag or stainless "Keg Hop" cylinder all the time. Some have gone as long as 4 months with no ill effects to the beer.

 

[Deadalus]

I always used whole flower because I didn't think there'd be anything that could corral pellet mush well enough to not end up drinking it. And now whole flower has become almost a "special order" thing, so I'm guessing you use pellets. Does the FDT render the issue moot?

Cheers!

I used a floating dip tube this past summer on NEIPA where I dry hopped in a keg I was fermenting in and it was a bust for whole hops. This is what got me wondering about whether cold crash temps drop the hops out.

I've used these: https://www.morebeer.com/products/stainless-steel-hop-tube-chain.html with the basic floating dip tubes as well as a standard dip tube without issues.

Scott Janish does the opposite and dry hops loose with a stainless filter around the dip tube: http://scottjanish.com/my-favorite-way-to-dry-hop-loose-in-primary-and-kegs/

These days I keg hop loose with a flotit 2.0. I think I get better hop utilization compared to the hop tube and the beer is just as clear.

I had a site I would check for those but every time I have looked at getting one of those dip tube filters they have been sold out. Brewhardware.com sells them and they were also sold out recently when I checked too.

Yep, pellets and a FlotIt 2.0, works great.

I haven’t used the HopStoppers that go in a keg, but the guy who makes them is winding down and selling them for $10 right now.

Sort of moot if they are sold out but I have used keg hopstoppers just fine with loose hops in the fermenter. If the hops were to drop I think there is a reasonable chance they would still clog. There were however, quite a number of testimonials on the website from what I remember when I bought my keggle one, I just wasn't reading them in particular for the keg ones as far as dry hopping. I did score 4 more though right after I got the email about his retirement! Maybe he'll sell or license the design.

I dry hop with pellets in a stainless tea ball that rests on the keg bottom for the entire time of consumption. Have never noted any overt grassy flavors.

If it works for you that's great. I found when using these for kettle hops that they don't hold a lot and that extraction was questionable as the hops expanded quite a bit. Perhaps that works in your favor.

I haven't tried it myself as I have four taps and kegs tend to last longer than I think this would work for.

 

[CyberFox]

This will be my first time both leaving dry hops in the keg and serving out of the same keg I fermented in. I was originally going to dry hop in the kegmenter (keg fermenter) and transfer to a purged serving keg, but the fermentation blow-off was so extreme that quite a bit of the krausen ended up transferring into the serving keg that I was purging with CO2 from fermentation. I pulled the plug on that and decided to just try serving out of the kegmenter for the first time.

I ground up the hops in a blender and dry hopped at 38 degrees, which is serving temp. I've heard that there isn't much risk of grassiness with leaving hops in the keg, so I'm not worried about that.

Serving out of the kegmenter wouldn't be nearly as easy without a floating dip tube and the FLOTit 2.0 is what I use. It works VERY well and I'd recommend it to anyone!

 

[fafrd]

apologies if there is a thread that addresses this, but Search didn't locate one.

I had always followed advice to dry hop no more than a week in the fermenter, then transfer to the serving keg.

lately I've seen discussions about dry hopping in the serving keg.

how does long-term dry hopping in the keg square with the previous conventional wisdom of 3-7 day dry hopping?

I would really like to move to keg hopping.

thanks!

Can’t find out how to start a new thread on the Forum so thought I’d just add a post here instead.

I’m interested in the temperature and contact time brewers are using when keg hopping as well as whether they are cold crashing before keg hopping or not.

I’ve always transferred from primary to a sanitized & purged serving keg containing keg hops (generally pellet hops) @ ~65F and agitated the keg 3-4 times per day for 5-7 days before putting the keg in a kegerator and chilling to serving temp of 38F.

I’ve left the hops in there until the keg was kicked 4-6 weeks later and never noticed any off flavors. If the hop character faded, it was subtle enough that it didn’t jump out at me (hard to do a head-to-head comparison).

Now I’m trying to brew a West Coast Pilsner and tried dry hopping in primary around the time of D-Rest as fermentation activity began to slow (as per the recipe).

The beer was good but lacked the hop aroma / punch I’m used to from hopping in the serving keg.

My fermentation chamber smelled fantastic for those few days so I’m thinking that means most of my hop aroma was wasted through the airlock…

I’ve also read that many brewers are now dry hopping at 55F or even lower for a shorter period (3-5 days) before transferring to a fresh serving keg (presumably to avoid grassy extraction or reabsorbtion of hop aroma).

So for any who keg hop, what temperatures and durations are you using and to the extent that you have compared 65F to lower temperatures, what were the differences you noticed?

Several posts have suggested that keg hopping at cooler temps if 55F or even lower takes longer (up to 14 days) but results in hop aroma that lasts much longer (the main appeal to me).

And as far as the timing of cold crash, I’ve read that flocculating yeast will pull down some hop flavor with them, so getting that done before transfer to a serving keg with hops seems like a good idea (even if it means warming back up to 65F for a few days after transfer).

 

[day_trippr]

To create a new thread, look for the outlined region at the top of each sub-forum page, and enter your new thread title in the box. It will automatically expand the user input pane with the rest of the required fields.

I used to keg hop with whole cones in muslin bags when I was growing my own "C hops", would drop a bag in the keg right after filling it (pre-O2 awareness days ) and leave it in the keg 'til it kicked. Never had any down-side issues with that, but when I finally quit growing I stopped keg-hopping, and I've never keg-hopped with pellets as it just seems problematic.

Instead I pound the dry hops after a soft-crash (50°F for two days, then 48 hours of hopping) followed by a hard-crash (two days to 36°F) then kegging. All post-fermentation efforts are tuned to minimize oxidation, including injecting a teaspoon of dissolved ascorbic acid into each purged keg prior to filling) I've found no lack of hop character persisting 'til the keg kicks...

Cheers!

 

[fafrd]

To create a new thread, look for the outlined region at the top of each sub-forum page, and enter your new thread title in the box. It will automatically expand the user input pane with the rest of the required fields.

View attachment 845663

Thanks. If/when it makes sense to take this discussion to a new thread, now I know how to do it .

I used to keg hop with whole cones in muslin bags when I was growing my own "C hops", would drop a bag in the keg right after filling it (pre-O2 awareness days ) and leave it in the keg 'til it kicked. Never had any down-side issues with that, but when I finally quit growing I stopped keg-hopping, and I've never keg-hopped with pellets as it just seems problematic.

So sounds like the hops were added to the keg at fermentation temps (~65F?) but the keg was then immediately chilled to serving temps (~40F?) where it remained until it kicked (similar to what I was doing in the old days except no 5-7 day extraction period at 65F with agitation).

Instead I pound the dry hops after a soft-crash (50°F for two days, then 48 hours of hopping) followed by a hard-crash (two days to 36°F) then kegging.

So soft crash the then 2 days of dry hopping (in primary?) @ 50F followed by 2-day hard crash before transfer to keg.

Why did you choose 50F and what impact do you believe it had versus 65F?

Did you ever try to cold crash to 36F before warming back to 50F for a 2-day dry-hop prior to cold crash & transfer to keg?

What is the benefit you believe you get from getting off the hops after only 2 days? Have you ever tried this process in the serving keg? (Cold-crash to 36F -> transfer to purged serving keg with dry hops -> warm to 50F for 2 day dry hop period before chilling to serving temps and carbonating)

All post-fermentation efforts are tuned to minimize oxidation,

Are you taking all those precautions against oxidation ‘just because’ or have you experienced the effect of oxidation at various points which you’ve addressed by incremental process tweaks?

I ask because I went all-in on avoiding any exposure to oxygen when I started brewing hazy IPAs but I’ve never experienced oxidized beer (to my knowledge / palette) and I’m now starting to wonder whether some steps may not be necessary.

As an example, I have a full rig to backfill my carboy fermenter with CO2 when transferring to keg, but I’ve now started skipping that step. There is a thick CO2 blanket in the carboy, even when air mixes with it, it is only in contact with the surface of the beer for the few minutes before the transfer to keg is complete.

I’m much more concerned about any oxygen trapped in the keg which is why I always purge and overfill my kegs.

including injecting a teaspoon of dissolved ascorbic acid into each purged keg prior to filling) I've found no lack of hop character persisting 'til the keg kicks...

Cheers!

That’s an interesting idea. Is there any reason the ascorbic acid cannot be added to the primary fermenter before transfer? Is it important that the ascorbic acid only be added after The beer has been transferred off of the dry hops?

Do you k ow whether commercial breweries add ascorbic acid to their beers? (or perhaps no need since turnaround is so fast?)

 

[CyberFox]

Can’t find out how to start a new thread on the Forum so thought I’d just add a post here instead.

I’m interested in the temperature and contact time brewers are using when keg hopping as well as whether they are cold crashing before keg hopping or not.

I’ve always transferred from primary to a sanitized & purged serving keg containing keg hops (generally pellet hops) @ ~65F and agitated the keg 3-4 times per day for 5-7 days before putting the keg in a kegerator and chilling to serving temp of 38F.

I’ve left the hops in there until the keg was kicked 4-6 weeks later and never noticed any off flavors. If the hop character faded, it was subtle enough that it didn’t jump out at me (hard to do a head-to-head comparison).

Now I’m trying to brew a West Coast Pilsner and tried dry hopping in primary around the time of D-Rest as fermentation activity began to slow (as per the recipe).

The beer was good but lacked the hop aroma / punch I’m used to from hopping in the serving keg.

My fermentation chamber smelled fantastic for those few days so I’m thinking that means most of my hop aroma was wasted through the airlock…

I’ve also read that many brewers are now dry hopping at 55F or even lower for a shorter period (3-5 days) before transferring to a fresh serving keg (presumably to avoid grassy extraction or reabsorbtion of hop aroma).

So for any who keg hop, what temperatures and durations are you using and to the extent that you have compared 65F to lower temperatures, what were the differences you noticed?

Several posts have suggested that keg hopping at cooler temps if 55F or even lower takes longer (up to 14 days) but results in hop aroma that lasts much longer (the main appeal to me).

And as far as the timing of cold crash, I’ve read that flocculating yeast will pull down some hop flavor with them, so getting that done before transfer to a serving keg with hops seems like a good idea (even if it means warming back up to 65F for a few days after transfer).

As you probably know, minimizing cold-side oxidation is by far the highest priority when making hoppy beer. That alone can pretty much make or break an IPA.

Scott Janish has popularized the short and cool method of dry hopping, which is to dry hop for 2 days between 55-60 degrees after a 24+ hour soft crash at the same temperature. This is supposed to drop the yeast before dry hopping (which supposedly increases aroma) as well as prevent hop creep and hop burn. The only issue with this is that hop creep might occur if you ever warm the beer back up (like cans/bottles on store shelves). Dry hopping under pressure is usually recommended, both to prevent aromas from escaping your FV and to prevent the vacuum from crashing (I always recommend this).

Many others have kept with the old school way of dry hopping, which is to dry hop for around 7 days at 68+ degrees. Brewers who use this method embrace the hop creep and let it run it's course, which usually takes at least 5 days. Some purposely dry hop when there is still a bit of yeast activity to speed up the hop creep. Many of these brewers dry hop with a blow-off and don't seem to worry about losing aroma. North Park does this and they have some of the most aromatic beers.

Some have said that dry hopping all the way down to 38 degrees is effective. I've recently tried dry hopping with ground up hops (for better extraction) for 2 days at 38 degrees and I was seriously disappointed (bummed, more like it). It might work for some, but to each their own.

I'm going to keep dry hopping under pressure post-fermentation at room temperature for 7 days. This always seems to work for me and is recommended by Yakima Chief. One thing to remember if you're going to dry hop under pressure is the pressure capability of your FV. I dry hop in a keg with only 4 psi (just enough to push the floating hops down into the beer) and the hop creep increases the pressure by a good amount. Just something to be aware of. Like day_trippr said, ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is also a good thing to use to help prevent oxidation and is something I always use.

 

[fafrd]

I've never keg-hopped with pellets as it just seems problematic.

Forgot to respond to this.

I’ve used both while hops and pellet hops in my kegs with no issues (so far).

I’ve made small 300um screen tubes I’ve fit over the ends of my dip tubes and they do a great job keeping hop particles out of the served beer.

The hop bed from pellets in a spent keg are far more compact than from cones, so there is less beer lost, and I’ve found cleanup to be a breeze (just use the ‘jet’ setting on my hose and pour them out. It takes me more time to clean out cones than pellets (though I always clean while still moist - dried pellet particles would be a PITA!).

There is always the fear of a hop particle jamming a poppet open, but never experienced that and since I leave my kegs connected until they are kicked, no sure how big of an issue it will be if it ever bites me…

 

[fafrd]

As you probably know, minimizing cold-side oxidation is by far the highest priority when making hoppy beer. That alone can pretty much make or break an IPA.

I’ve been a fanatic about minimizing cold-side exposure to oxygen but I’m now starting to question some of those steps (been reading too many BruLosophies ).

For example, as I just posted earlier, I’m not sure going to the trouble of backfilling the primary fermenter with CO2 when transferring to secondary/keg is worth the trouble (though interested in any counterarguments).

Scott Janish has popularized the short and cool method of dry hopping, which is to dry hop for 2 days between 55-60 degrees after a 24+ hour soft crash at the same temperature. This is supposed to drop the yeast before dry hopping (which supposedly increases aroma) as well as prevent hop creep and hop burn.

I was actually about to post the Scott Jainish article to ask whether that is why so many now dryhop cooler and quicker: http://scottjanish.com/a-case-for-short-and-cool-dry-hopping/#:~:text=Even at colder temperatures of,F (20°C).

I didn’t know he was also the one suggesting ‘soft crash’ and I still don’t understand why it wouldn’t be better to do a true cold crash and then warm back up to 55-60F for dry hopping?

I’m concerned enough about losing hop flavor / aroma to yeast particulate that I’m planning on crashing / settling before dry hopping (post-transfer in my case).

The only issue with this is that hop creep might occur if you ever warm the beer back up (like cans/bottles on store shelves).

Which is not a concern for me, so it sounds as though my motivation to dry hop in primary is small / non-existent. At most, I need to worry about hop creep during the few days I warm the leg up for dry hopping (one additional advantage for leg-hopping at 50 or 55F rather than 65F).

Dry hopping under pressure is usually recommended, both to prevent aromas from escaping your FV and to prevent the vacuum from crashing (I always recommend this).

I always pressurize a fresh keg to 25-30PSI to assure it’s sealed and let it drift down from there. Leaving CO2 connected for a few days of keg hoping before chilling to serving temps would not be a big deal if it provides extra insurance against a hop-creep surprise…

Many others have kept with the old school way of dry hopping, which is to dry hop for around 7 days at 68+ degrees.

Some seem to be using dry-hopping to refer to hopping in primary (or possibly secondary) while using keg-hopping to
be used for hopping in serving keg.

So are these ‘old-school’ brewers fry-hopping exclusively in primary or also in unpressurized serving kegs?

I cold-side hop my IPAs in the serving keg under pressure for 5-7 days at ~65F, so do I qualify as one of these ‘old-school’ brewers?

Brewers who use this method embrace the hop creep and let it run its course, which usually takes at least 5 days.

Ah, so hop creep suggests in primary. I’m in the serving keg under pressure at 65F for 5-7 days and never experienced hop creep (to my knowledge / awareness).

Some purposely dry hop when there is still a bit of yeast activity to speed up the hop creep.

This is what the WC Pilsner Recipe I followed was advising (Timbo).

Many of these brewers dry hop with a blow-off and don't seem to worry about losing aroma. North Park does this and they have some of the most aromatic beers.

It’s exactly all that aroma lost through the airlock that makes me question the approach. Seems like a waste of perfectly good aroma hops.

Some have said that dry hopping all the way down to 38 degrees is effective. I've recently tried dry hopping with ground up hops (for better extraction) for 2 days at 38 degrees and I was seriously disappointed (bummed, more like it). It might work for some, but to each their own.

What is it you were hoping to gain at 38F that you couldn’t get at 55-60F?

I’ve read that at serving temps (~40F) it takes longer for hop aroma to peak (~14 days).

I'm going to keep dry hopping under pressure post-fermentation at room temperature for 7 days.

After racking off of the yeast cake or in primary?

This always seems to work for me and is recommended by Yakima Chief.

Interested to read any link you have to that…

One thing to remember if you're going to dry hop under pressure is the pressure capability of your FV. I dry hop in a keg with only 4 psi (just enough to push the floating hops down into the beer) and the hop creep increases the pressure by a good amount.

Sounds like your dry-hopping process is very similar to my IPA dry-hopping process. As I stated, I pressurized to ~25PSI and left it for 5-7 days of keg agitation before crashing to serving temp and carbonating.

Perhaps I did have some hop creep going on and never noticed it. Sounds as though getting a Spunding Valve might be a wise investment…

Do you ever agitate your keg when dry hopping? I’ve never worried about ‘pushing the floating hops down into the beer’ because I usually flip and (gently) shake the keg several times per day…

Just something to be aware of. Like day_trippr said, ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is a good thing to use to help prevent oxidation and is something I always use.

Is it important to add Ascorbic acid after dry-hopping is complete, or can it be added into primary when transferring to keg?

One of the concerns I’ve read about regarding hop creep is a return of Diacetyl - is that something you have experienced?

Between maintaining pressure at serving levels of 10-15PSI and possibly dropping dry hop temp to 55F or even 50F, hopefully yeast activity can be retarded to the point that Diacetyl is not a concern…

 

[day_trippr]

lol - did not expect a wall of questions in return, but wth, I'm up for it

So sounds like the hops were added to the keg at fermentation temps (~65F?) but the keg was then immediately chilled to serving temps (~40F?) where it remained until it kicked (similar to what I was doing in the old days except no 5-7 day extraction period at 65F with agitation).

In the beginning I would add dry hops at the end of fermentation (at ferm' temp) for many days, then hard-crash (36°F for 3 or 4 days) before kegging. Then when New England IPAs were starting to roll out, I would add a round of dry hops a couple of days post-pitch, let that go for 3 or 4 days, then add another round at the end of fermentation, before hard crashing and kegging. At this point I was also providing exogenous CO2 to the fermentors when cold-crashing to avoid O2 suck-in.

A couple of times I did do a hard crash, warm back up to mid-60s°F, then dry hop, but it was a protracted pita to do and didn't seem to provide much benefit. Around that time I read that 85+% of the impact of dry hopping occurs in the first 24 hours and by the time 48 hours have passed the extract rate is down at the "tail of the dragon" level. So I stopped doing that

So soft crash the then 2 days of dry hopping (in primary?) @ 50F followed by 2-day hard crash before transfer to keg.
Why did you choose 50F and what impact do you believe it had versus 65F?

Since becoming familiar with the "short and cool" Janish recommendation I've followed his soft-crash to 50°F, 2 day dry hopping, followed by a hard crash and keg process. As was mentioned the soft crash and cool hopping is an attempt to get the yeast out of the way before they can glom onto desirable hop compounds and drag them out of the beer, and to help minimize hop creep in the future. Also, Janish pretty well confirmed pellet hops give up nearly all their goodness in short order so protracted contact isn't necessary.

Are you taking all those precautions against oxidation ‘just because’ or have you experienced the effect of oxidation at various points which you’ve addressed by incremental process tweaks?

Haha! I definitely experienced what can happen to a highly-hopped keg of beer after oxygen exposure at "pre-awareness routine levels" - ie, I did not protect against O2-suckage during cold-crashing, did not pre-purge kegs and transfer lines prior to kegging, did not use barrier tubing throughout my brewery, etc. This became acutely obvious in the first months of 2020 when Covid suddenly kept friends and family home and not drinking my beers fast enough, while massive amounts of hop character were lost in the offing.

Now, with all the changes I've made, including providing light CO2 pressure to the fermentors when soft- or hard-crashing, purging kegs using fermentation gas, purging all transfer lines with CO2 and injecting the ascorbic acid before before kegging, I now have massively hopped kegs of NEIPAs last for six months plus while still packing a wallop of character and maintaining their original color.

Is there any reason the ascorbic acid cannot be added to the primary fermenter before transfer? Is it important that the ascorbic acid only be added after The beer has been transferred off of the dry hops?

Do you know whether commercial breweries add ascorbic acid to their beers?

I did not follow any hard guidance, I read a reference one evening and ordered a bag of ascorbic acid that night, and dosed my first batch a week later. It made sense to me to hold off until packaging as everything in front of that point was already being fairly well controlled wrt O2 ingress, with only a single, brief opening to pour in the one round of dry hops.

As time progressed it became profoundly obvious something good had happened. I had never had kegs of NEIPAs stay so lovely for so long.

I don't know of any breweries using ascorbic acid, but then again, I haven't looked. But I am 100% sure it works, I have enough "before" and "after" experience with multiple same-recipe outcomes and have zero doubt, and AA has been used throughout food and beverage industries forever with now evidently good reason

Cheers!

ps: there is no such thing as a "CO2 Blanket" outside of laboratory conditions.

 

[mac_1103]

I’m not sure going to the trouble of backfilling the primary fermenter with CO2 when transferring to secondary/keg is worth the trouble

The purged keg is full of CO2 that is going to be displaced by the beer you're transferring into it. I find that it is pretty much no trouble at all to set up a closed loop so that CO2 goes into the fermenter (instead of just letting air into the fermenter as it empties into the keg).

 

[fafrd]

lol - did not expect a wall of questions in return, but wth, I'm up for it

My hero - thanks for the detailed reply.

In the beginning I would add dry hops at the end of fermentation (at ferm' temp) for many days, then hard-crash (36°F for 3 or 4 days) before kegging. Then when New England IPAs were starting to roll out, I would add a round of dry hops a couple of days post-pitch, let that go for 3 or 4 days, then add another round at the end of fermentation, before hard crashing and kegging. At this point I was also providing exogenous CO2 to the fermentors when cold-crashing to avoid O2 suck-in.

Similar to my NEIPA process except I added the second round of hops in the serving keg after transfer.

I was backfilling with CO2 during that transfer from primary but I’m now skipping that.

I would generally cold crash slowly enough that residual CO2 generation (from trub) would be sufficient to
prevent back-bubbles (helps having a large headspace).

A couple of times I did do a hard crash, warm back up to mid-60s°F, then dry hop, but it was a protracted pita to do and didn't seem to provide much benefit. Around that time I read that 85+% of the impact of dry hopping occurs in the first 24 hours and by the time 48 hours have passed the extract rate is down at the "tail of the dragon" level. So I stopped doing that

Taking longer (more days) is a different issue, but I can cool down or heat up by just changing settings on my temperature controller. If the ‘soft crash’ to 50F is about as effective as a hard-crash to 32F, I agree, why bother?

But if getting the yeast to flocculate as completely as possible takes one temp and ideal keg-hopping requires a different temp, that sounds easier than purging a Starsan-filled keg with CO2…

Since becoming familiar with the "short and cool" Janish recommendation I've followed his soft-crash to 50°F, 2 day dry hopping, followed by a hard crash and keg process. As was mentioned the soft crash and cool hopping is an attempt to get the yeast out of the way before they can glom onto desirable hop compounds and drag them out of the beer, and to help minimize hop creep in the future. Also, Janish pretty well confirmed pellet hops give up nearly all their goodness in short order so protracted contact isn't necessary.

Can Ale yeast like US-05 still ferment / creep enough to cause a problem at serving temps of ~40F? I get where Jainish is coming from for a commercial brewery, but I’m questioning why it should be a big concern for us homebrewers who can keep our beer at serving temps from the moment it’s in a keg until the eg is kicked…

Haha! I definitely experienced what can happen to a highly-hopped keg of beer after oxygen exposure at "pre-awareness routine levels" - ie, I did not protect against O2-suckage during cold-crashing, did not pre-purge kegs and transfer lines prior to kegging, did not use barrier tubing throughout my brewery, etc.

Protecting against back bubbles and O2 in the keg, I understand (and also practice). Barrier tubing, I do not.

This became acutely obvious in the first months of 2020 when Covid suddenly kept friends and family home and not drinking my beers fast enough, while massive amounts of hop character were lost in the offing.

Now, with all the changes I've made, including providing light CO2 pressure to the fermentors when soft- or hard-crashing, purging kegs using fermentation gas, purging all transfer lines with CO2 and injecting the ascorbic acid before before kegging, I now have massively hopped kegs of NEIPAs last for six months plus while still packing a wallop of character and maintaining their original color.

Fantastic. I’m going to look into Ascorbic acid even though it’s not loss of hop aroma I’m primarily concerned with. Sounds like a good way to extend whatever lifetime you have through process alone.

My main concern is not letting so much hop aroma escape through the airlock without suffering from hop-creep / Diacetyl (or reduced lifetime from oxygen introduced with the dry hops).

I did not follow any hard guidance, I read a reference one evening and ordered a bag of ascorbic acid that night, and dosed my first batch a week later. It made sense to me to hold off until packaging as everything in front of that point was already being fairly well controlled wrt O2 ingress, with only a single, brief opening to pour in the one round of dry hops.

As time progressed it became profoundly obvious something good had happened. I had never had kegs of NEIPAs stay so lovely for so long.

That’s great to hear!

If presence of Ascorbic acid does not interfere with dry-hop process, dropping it into primary before transfer to keg seems easier than getting it directly into the keg… (at least for my process where I keg-hop).

I don't know of any breweries using ascorbic acid, but then again, I haven't looked. But I am 100% sure it works, I have enough "before" and "after" experience with multiple same-recipe outcomes and have zero doubt, and AA has been used throughout food and beverage industries forever with now evidently good reason

Cheers!

Ascorbic acid is certainly safe - would just like to understand why no commercial breweries use it if it is as effective as you’ve discovered.

‘NEIPA in a can’ has been a holy grail since NEIPA came in the scene (with Hazy Little Thing being the first commercial beer to pretty-much / sort-of crack it).

Perhaps you should get a consulting gig with Sierra Nevada .

ps: there is no such thing as a "CO2 Blanket" outside of laboratory conditions.

Oh, I know, but it’s still going to significantly reduce the oxygen exposure to the surface of the beer while transferring. The short contact time is the more significant protection - exposing the surface of the beer in the fermenter to some oxygen for the 5-10 minutes it takes to transfer to keg is not likely to make the beer stale. Not nearly as stale as any O2 trapped in the leg with the beer…

 

[fafrd]

The purged keg is full of CO2 that is going to be displaced by the beer you're transferring into it. I find that it is pretty much no trouble at all to set up a closed loop so that CO2 goes into the fermenter (instead of just letting air into the fermenter as it empties into the keg).

Hmmmm, that is a brilliant idea (which has never occurred to me).

I’ve always hooked up a CO2 tank to the purge input of my carboy cap and just bubbled away the CO2 in the keg through a blowoff tube.

‘Closing the loop’ by connecting the connecting the blowoff hose to the purge input of the carboy cap is an easy and no-cost way to back feed CO2 into the carboy.

I’ll be adopting your closed-loop idea going forward - thanks!

 

[fafrd]

Another question back to the original
topic if this thread;

Is hop creep really that big of an issue for those of us that keg hop and keep our kegs at serving temps until they are kicked?

-cold-crash before transferring to keg with hops to minimize yeast transfer

-pressurize to ~10PSI and only ‘warm’ filled keg up to ~50F (before or after transfer) to minimize yeast activity during 2-3 day dryhop period

-transfer to a serving keg and chill to serving temps of 38-40F while carbonating before serving and remain at that temperature until the keg is kicked (of serve directly out of the dry hop keg if not concerned about vegetal notes and/or aroma reabsorption before the keg is kicked).

Between the serving pressure and the serving temps, yeast activity is going to be retarded (especially if Ale yeast).

Any increase in ABV is going to be modest (and can be planned for by reducing SG).

Any increase in CO2 / pressure is a non-issue since we are already in a serving keg (put on a Spunding valve or draw out a pint or two early-on if really worried about over-carbonation or explosion).

The way I see it, noticeable Diacetyl is the only possible issue here - are we really worried that noticeable Diecetly can form in only 3 days @ 50F under pressure or through an extended period at serving temps under serving pressure?

This sounds like a BruLosophy just begging for someone to test it…

Or is there a concern for us homebrewers that I am overlooking or minimizing?

 

[fafrd]

I did not follow any hard guidance, I read a reference one evening and ordered a bag of ascorbic acid that night, and dosed my first batch a week later. It made sense to me to hold off until packaging as everything in front of that point was already being fairly well controlled wrt O2 ingress, with only a single, brief opening to pour in the one round of dry hops.

As time progressed it became profoundly obvious something good had happened. I had never had kegs of NEIPAs stay so lovely for so long.

I don't know of any breweries using ascorbic acid, but then again, I haven't looked. But I am 100% sure it works, I have enough "before" and "after" experience with multiple same-recipe outcomes and have zero doubt, and AA has been used throughout food and beverage industries forever with now evidently good reason

Cheers!

You’ve probably already seen this: https://brulosophy.com/2023/11/06/e...cid-at-packaging-has-on-a-west-coast-pilsner/

Because he purposely exposed his beers to oxygen on transfer, this is not a contradiction to your results..

SO2 is excellent at absorbing dissolved oxygen, so it just may be a better buffer against dissolved O2 than Absorbic acid.

As long as Ascorbic acid is a sufficient buffer to absorb whatever incidental oxygen gets absorbed by your beer during your ultra-low-oxygen processes, that’s good enough and the additional protection offered by SO2 delivers nothing.

I’m guessing the only incidental O2 trapped in hop pellets (as well as however much gets in when the keg is opened to insert them) is the primary source of oxygen you need to be concerned about it your process.

If the Ascorbic acid you add is sufficient to absorb all of that, I can see it delivering the results you are achieving.

Whether Ascorbic acid or SO2, I’ also seeing no reason you couldn’t add them directly to primary after fermentation and before transfer to leg with hops…

SO2 also retards yeast, so dosing primary with enough of it Post-fermentation may be an additional way to eliminate or at least reduce hop-creep…

I’m also a winemaker and very familiar with the use of SO2, so I may consider adding either SO2 or Ascorbic acid to primary upon transfer to keg with hops…

 

[day_trippr]

I prefer not to risk sulfurous emanations from my beer so ascorbic acid is it.
As for your speculations wrt efficacy when added before kegging, I'll stick with what's working wonderfully...

Cheers! (...and I don't do Brulosophy. Full stop.)

 

[mac_1103]

(...and I don't do Brulosophy. Full stop.)

+1

 

[fafrd]

I prefer not to risk sulfurous emanations from my beer so ascorbic acid is it.
As for your speculations wrt efficacy when added before kegging, I'll stick with what's working wonderfully...

When I get around to trying this, I’ll probably go to the trouble of attempting to characterize the taste threshold of both Ascorbic acid in beer and SO2 in beer by adding various concentrations to light Pilsner.

Cheers! (...and I don't do Brulosophy. Full stop.)

Is there some issue with BruLosophy I’m not aware of?

I wish he had not chosen to purposely expose his beer to oxygen on transfer as part of the experiment, but find it to be a worthwhile directional indicator.

Here he doses with 300mg SO2 in 5g / 19l of beer for 16ppm: https://brulosophy.com/2020/06/08/c...tabisulfite-at-packaging-exbeeriment-results/

Both beers still suffered from the noticeable effects of oxidation, though it sounds as though he felt 16ppm SO2 had more impact mitigating than adding 0.5tsp / 2.7g Ascorbic acid to 2.5g / 9.5l (is that 289.5ppm?), which is the same dosage level you use, right?

Winemakers commonly dose SO2 up to 50ppm, which is below the perception threshold, even for light white wines. But white wines are far more acidic (pH of ~3.0) as well as higher ABV than beer, so the perception threshold on a light Pilsner could be much lower…

SO2 also leaches color, so I’m not surprised his Pilsner dosed with SO2 appeared lighter than the non-dosed split…

And I’m also assuming that if you don’t go out of your way to purposely expose your beer to oxygen on transfer, either 300ppm Ascorbic acid or 16ppm of SO2 is likely a plenty big enough buffer to protect against the effects of any incidental exposure to oxygen (such as that trapped in hop pellets).

 

[day_trippr]

I use 5.5 grams of AA in a 5 gallon batch with a total mass of ~19300 grams, so approximately 285 ppm.
Transformative. Highly recommended no matter how you want to slice it...

Cheers!

 

[mac_1103]

Is there some issue with BruLosophy I’m not aware of?

Statistical illiteracy.

 

[fafrd]

I use 5.5 grams of AA in a 5 gallon batch with a total mass of ~19300 grams, so approximately 285 ppm.
Transformative. Highly recommended no matter how you want to slice it...

Cheers!

I’m going to focus first of after-transfer keg hoppig for 3 days at 50F versus 65F to see how they compare as far as extraction / aroma / taste.

But once I settle on a process for that, signs of hop creep (primarily Diacetyl), fading of hop aroma and any signs of staleness / oxidation before kegs get kicked will be next on my list, and I’ll look into use of AA and possibly also SO2 to mitigate any signs of oxidation and.or Diacetyl.

Thanks for your posts and will report back once I have any news to share…