Dry hopping and the 5 to 7 day rule

[matridium]

Who invented this 5 to 7 day rule for dry hopping?
I know that we add hops into a secondary after primary fermentation has ceased, for a few days. And some even do the addition at the very end of primary directly into the primary fermenter.
But who set these rules like 5 - 7 days? What if you add the hops at day 14 or day 9?
What's the rationale behind the 5 -7 day rule?

 

[couchsending]

The 5-7 day rule is 5-7 days total time, not on the day you add them.

And it’s no rule. Plenty people go shorter and some even longer.

 

[matridium]

The 5-7 day rule is 5-7 days total time, not on the day you add them.

And it’s no rule. Plenty people go shorter and some even longer.

Interesting way to look at but when I see it in recipes most of the time its states add hops after 5 - 7 days. I have read that primary fermentation will strip away the aromas and flavors from the hops. I get that and it might be true.

 

[M54B25]

James Hoppington invented it. You'll need to talk to him and get a permit if you want to drop-hop on a different schedule than 5-7 days.

I know it sounds crazy, but those are the rules and they are strictly enforced.

Joking aside, I've seen both what you've taken as 5-7 days after fermenting and also 'dry hop for 5-7 days'. Either one is probably fine depending on the beer. As it sounds like you know, when you dry hop a beer, you're generally trying to get the hop aromas which do dissipate over time, so you want to dry hop relatively closely to consumption of the beer. Additionally, the styles of beers that call for dry hopping tend to be hoppier beers to begin with, which also benefit from being drunk "fresh". Combine that with the general guidance that you want to dry hop after the primary fermentation is done and you end up with something in the 5-7 day range as the general advice.

None of that is to say that anything outside of the 5-7 day range is off-limits. There are reasons to break most of the above guidelines in some cases. There are also potential ramifications of dry-hopping too early/late/long etc. which makes that 5-7 day recommendation good general advice for people writing recipes.

 

[MaxStout]

The suggestion is to add hops 5-7 days into fermentation, then 5-7 days dry hop time. Adding roughly half way through the typical primary fermentation. The first 5-7 is to ensure the fermentation has slowed enough that CO2 bubbles won't carry the hops flavor away. The 5-7 day dry hop period is to ensure you don't keep the hops in too long, as they may contribute "grassy" off-flavors.

There is some wiggle room, but those are rough guidelines.

 

[seatazzz]

I've read that dry hopping at the tail end of primary (when yeast are still in suspension) is also the way to go. Seems to make a bit of sense to me; the hop particles will get moved around in the beer by the still-moving yeast, and dissipate their oils more efficiently. I think it's more a personal preference rather than a hard and fast rule. I've tried it both ways, in fact I dry hopped a Mosaic IPA on Tuesday that had been brewed on Sunday (pause for horrified gasps), started at 1.060 and came down to 1.012 in three days, that will get kegged tomorrow. Crazy? Yes I am. But I have beer so that makes it okay.

 

[matridium]

The suggestion is to add hops 5-7 days into fermentation, then 5-7 days dry hop time. Adding roughly half way through the typical primary fermentation. The first 5-7 is to ensure the fermentation has slowed enough that CO2 bubbles won't carry the hops flavor away. The 5-7 day dry hop period is to ensure you don't keep the hops in too long, as they may contribute "grassy" off-flavors.

There is some wiggle room, but those are rough guidelines.

Right now I'm fermenting a NEIPA It calls for adding hops 5 -7 days after racking to secondary. I generally don't rack to secondary fermenters. When I have dry hopped it's been in the primary.
Also this time around I'm going to add in Lavender. I'm making this for a friend who loves lavender. So I'm going back and forth on what to do. Maybe add fresh Lavender to the primary at the end of fermentation. I'm also thinking of making an extract like advised in Radical Brewing with vodka. Add a little to finished beer. Or I've thought of making a tea with the lavender and adding a small bit of this before racking to keg and bottles. Any ideas?

 

[MaxStout]

No reason you couldn't dry hop in primary and add the lavender tea at the same time. That would also reduce the number of times you're opening your fermenter.

 

[matridium]

No reason you couldn't dry hop in primary and add the lavender tea at the same time. That would also reduce the number of times you're opening your fermenter.

That's probably what I'm going to do. Now I need to figure out how much lavender. I have to remember that less is more when it comes to herbs. I dont want my beer to have that soapy after taste. I had a Sage and Rosemary ale once a friend made and it tasted like dawn soap was added to it.

 

[Pappers_]

FWIW, for IPAs or other hoppy American-style beers, I wait for fermentation to end completely before adding the dry hops, then add them directly to the primary fermenter. I let the hops sit for four days, then rack to a secondary and cold crash for three or four days before kegging.

 

[Denny]

I follow my own rules. After primary fermentation is complete, I cold crash the beer, and rack to another fermenter. I dry hop there, and flush the fermenter with CO2. I leave it at room temp for 4-14 days, then cold crash again before kegging. That way I avoid both biotransformation and hop creep.

 

[matridium]

I follow my own rules. After primary fermentation is complete, I cold crash the beer, and rack to another fermenter. I dry hop there, and flush the fermenter with CO2. I leave it at room temp for 4-14 days, then cold crash again before kegging. That way I avoid both biotransformation and hop creep.

Hop creep? Sounds like a skin rash
[emoji12]

 

[ba-brewer]

Hop creep, that is a person that buys up a bunch of a popular hops then sells them at inflated prices.

 

[ba-brewer]

In my system most 1050 to 1060 beers are pretty much done(over 90% to expected attenuation) 4 days post pitch. I usually add my dry hop on day 4 or 5 in the primary and give them 4 or 5 days then keg. Seems to work OK with me.

I think using fresh well take care of hops is as important as the duration. After stumbling across the hop spot market and seeing hops for sale that are couple years old I only buy from vendors that list harvest years. My dry hop results have improved since.

 

[Pappers_]

I follow my own rules. After primary fermentation is complete, I cold crash the beer, and rack to another fermenter. I dry hop there, and flush the fermenter with CO2. I leave it at room temp for 4-14 days, then cold crash again before kegging. That way I avoid both biotransformation and hop creep.

Hi @Denny Tell me more about biotransformatio and hop creep, please.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I follow my own rules. After primary fermentation is complete, I cold crash the beer, and rack to another fermenter. I dry hop there, and flush the fermenter with CO2. I leave it at room temp for 4-14 days, then cold crash again before kegging. That way I avoid both biotransformation and hop creep.

Seems like a decent plan, though I'd have to wonder if a simple cold crash is enough to remove enough yeast to prevent hop creep, given that it's not enough to prevent bottle conditioning my suspicion is no.

Do you see any diacetyl show up with time? Or are they gone before that point?

I'd suspect that even if there's little perceptive gravity drop you may get enough acetolactate formation that oxidizes to perceptible diacetyl down the line. Unless you're bottle conditioning, that's the biggest headache I've encountered with hop creep (though a forced test would answer the question).

 

[Qhrumphf]

Hi @Denny Tell me more about biotransformatio and hop creep, please.

Hop creep is when amylase enzymes present naturally in hops begin to break down longer unfermentable carboyhydrates into fermentable ones after dry hopping. A presentation was given at CBC (and I believe the same one at NHC) showing a chemical anylsis demonstrating a change from larger polysaccharides into maltose in finished beer.

Apart from increasing a perception of sweetness, the bigger issue is residual yeast then fermenting the fermentables created. It results in a gravity drop, and if packaged, potential overcarbonation. And, often a bunch of diacetyl or its precursors.

The phenomenon is not a new one and has been written about for a long time, though with the popularity of IPAs research into it is newer.

Biotransformation is still not well understood (like, at all), and also seems to be enzymatic in nature, but is an enzyme produced by certain yeasts that interact with hop compounds to create different characters (typical to NEIPA), and a major hop polyphenol haze in the process.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I have different processes, but need a conical unitank to do them. Alternatively one could rack to a keg in lieu of capping, but would lose ability to drop hops out and the like so it wouldn't be the same.

My preferred way is to dry hop and cap fermentation (seal fermenter) 1°P above my FG with a 15 PSI spunding valve. I'll leave it at fermentation temp for 3-4 days, drop out the cone, and if it's done (which it always is) crash it, otherwise I'll leave it at temp until it's done.

If I'm doing a NEIPA I'll dry hop at 36 hours, cap with a 5 PSI spunding valve, and use a converted keg to O2-free slurry dry hop again same as above, but done under pressure, and then set to 15 PSI.

The other is to cap at 1P above FG with a 1-2 PSI spunding valve, and as soon as fermentation is done, soft crash to lower 50s for a few days while also burping off head pressure at least daily, then harvest yeast and drop the rest, dry hop in the lower 50s, for 4-5 days, put at 15 PSI, drop again and crash it.

Important here is that in the first two cases, still active yeast clean up hop creep (though if using a biotransformative yeast you'll get that, so yeast selection is important depending on whether or not that's desirable). In the third case one of two things happens- either the beer gets the yeast filtered out, or never warms back up. So that hop creep never becomes an issue because the yeast are never allowed to start back up.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Also important to note that hops create nucleation sites that drive CO2 out of solution. Dry hopping even partially carbonated beer can result in a lot of foaming and potentially a geyser.

Can't say I've seen a geyser at homebrew scale but it wouldn't surprise me. Google "dry hop geyser" and you'll see an example at commercial scale. I reckon it's happened at least once in every craft brewery on earth (though I'm sure scale makes it MUCH more violent than you'd see with a 5 gal batch).

So the "burp off head pressure" or "do in converted keg under pressure" parts are important.

 

[yourlastchance89]

I typically dry hop in the primary at the tail end of fermentation and also in my keg that utilizes a screened clear beer draught system

 

[matridium]

Hop creep is when amylase enzymes present naturally in hops begin to break down longer unfermentable carboyhydrates into fermentable ones after dry hopping. A presentation was given at CBC (and I believe the same one at NHC) showing a chemical anylsis demonstrating a change from larger polysaccharides into maltose in finished beer.

Apart from increasing a perception of sweetness, the bigger issue is residual yeast then fermenting the fermentables created. It results in a gravity drop, and if packaged, potential overcarbonation. And, often a bunch of diacetyl or its precursors.

The phenomenon is not a new one and has been written about for a long time, though with the popularity of IPAs research into it is newer.

Biotransformation is still not well understood (like, at all), and also seems to be enzymatic in nature, but is an enzyme produced by certain yeasts that interact with hop compounds to create different characters (typical to NEIPA), and a major hop polyphenol haze in the process.

I'm interested in this "hop creep" theory. I'm sure there are some enzymes left over but I would think that the optimal conditions for enzymatic activity would be diminished in green or finished beer. The pH, temperture, and possible presence of competitive inhibitors would slow down this process. I'm just thinking outloud about this since I have not explored dry hopping, majority of the beers I make are mostly Belgians with no dry hops added. New territory for me. The biotransfer idea is interesting too. I'm wondering how this process has been observed, assayed.....interesting.

 

[Denny]

Seems like a decent plan, though I'd have to wonder if a simple cold crash is enough to remove enough yeast to prevent hop creep, given that it's not enough to prevent bottle conditioning my suspicion is no.

Do you see any diacetyl show up with time? Or are they gone before that point?

I'd suspect that even if there's little perceptive gravity drop you may get enough acetolactate formation that oxidizes to perceptible diacetyl down the line. Unless you're bottle conditioning, that's the biggest headache I've encountered with hop creep (though a forced test would answer the question).

Based on my results, apparently it does. If you listen to the latest Experimental Brewing podcast, I discuss it with Stan Hieronymus and he seems to think that it does. No diacetyl, either. I have only done limited testing so far, but the results have been the same every time.

 

[Denny]

Hop creep is when amylase enzymes present naturally in hops begin to break down longer unfermentable carboyhydrates into fermentable ones after dry hopping. A presentation was given at CBC (and I believe the same one at NHC) showing a chemical anylsis demonstrating a change from larger polysaccharides into maltose in finished beer.

Apart from increasing a perception of sweetness, the bigger issue is residual yeast then fermenting the fermentables created. It results in a gravity drop, and if packaged, potential overcarbonation. And, often a bunch of diacetyl or its precursors.

The phenomenon is not a new one and has been written about for a long time, though with the popularity of IPAs research into it is newer.

Biotransformation is still not well understood (like, at all), and also seems to be enzymatic in nature, but is an enzyme produced by certain yeasts that interact with hop compounds to create different characters (typical to NEIPA), and a major hop polyphenol haze in the process.

Yeah, we first talked about it in 2016. https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-12-going-stale We referenced a paper written in 1941.....https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1941.tb06070.x

 

[couchsending]

I soft crash, remove yeast, and generally dry hop around 60. I never get hop creep and always test for VDKs before kegging. I’ve never experienced diacetyl using this method. I also keep beer cold most of the time. Not sure if it warmed up if I might get some refermentation. I kind of doubt it.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'm interested in this "hop creep" theory. I'm sure there are some enzymes left over but I would think that the optimal conditions for enzymatic activity would be diminished in green or finished beer. The pH, temperture, and possible presence of competitive inhibitors would slow down this process. I'm just thinking outloud about this since I have not explored dry hopping, majority of the beers I make are mostly Belgians with no dry hops added. New territory for me. The biotransfer idea is interesting too. I'm wondering how this process has been observed, assayed.....interesting.

That's precisely why it's called hop *creep*.

It can be quite slow.

Like a stable unfiltered canned or bottled beer that starts gushing or worse bursting weeks or months later when sitting on store shelves. This is a serious issue for packaging breweries.

Allagash did some research and experimentation after it was happening with one of theirs. I didn't see their particular presentation on it but I do have a copy of the paper around here somewhere.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Many people are moving away from racking to a secondary container. Some respected brewers still do (Denny being a prime example). There are pros and cons to both.

However, if you are making a hop-forward beer, especially a heavily dry-hopped one, consider that racking (particularly open transfer to an un-purged container) is going to expose your green beer to a good deal of oxygen, which degrades hops compounds and is the likely culprit in the rapid browning and aromatic degradation of many homebrewed NEIPAs. You would be well advised to, at the minimum, rack into a CO2-purged container.

On the flip side, there are those who believe that oxygen exposure does not degrade beer, which would make it unique among food substances.

 

[Denny]

Many people are moving away from racking to a secondary container. Some respected brewers still do (Denny being a prime example). There are pros and cons to both.

However, if you are making a hop-forward beer, especially a heavily dry-hopped one, consider that racking (particularly open transfer to an un-purged container) is going to expose your green beer to a good deal of oxygen, which degrades hops compounds and is the likely culprit in the rapid browning and aromatic degradation of many homebrewed NEIPAs. You would be well advised to, at the minimum, rack into a CO2-purged container.

On the flip side, there are those who believe that oxygen exposure does not degrade beer, which would make it unique among food substances.

The ONLY times I use a secondary are when I dry hop or add more fermentables. Otherwise, it's primary only. I purge the secondary container, then add CO2 after the beer has been racked. I don't make or drink NEIPA so in my case that isn't a concern.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

The ONLY times I use a secondary are when I dry hop or add more fermentables. Otherwise, it's primary only. I purge the secondary container, then add CO2 after the beer has been racked. I don't make or drink NEIPA so in my case that isn't a concern.

Cool. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[matridium]

Many people are moving away from racking to a secondary container. Some respected brewers still do (Denny being a prime example). There are pros and cons to both.

However, if you are making a hop-forward beer, especially a heavily dry-hopped one, consider that racking (particularly open transfer to an un-purged container) is going to expose your green beer to a good deal of oxygen, which degrades hops compounds and is the likely culprit in the rapid browning and aromatic degradation of many homebrewed NEIPAs. You would be well advised to, at the minimum, rack into a CO2-purged container.

On the flip side, there are those who believe that oxygen exposure does not degrade beer, which would make it unique among food substances.

I generally don't use a secondary at all, I did in my early years but found no real benefit... I found my way to primary only by pure laziness.. it's more work, more risk and not much benefit. I did a strong ale back around Christmas with a few spices and oak chips. I did put that in secondary. But this NEIPA will be dry hopped and lavender in the primary.

 

[Yooper]

FWIW, for IPAs or other hoppy American-style beers, I wait for fermentation to end completely before adding the dry hops, then add them directly to the primary fermenter. I let the hops sit for four days, then rack to a secondary and cold crash for three or four days before kegging.

This is very similar to what I do for west coast style IPAs, usually dry hopping for 3-4 days. For NE IPAs, I hop earlier for the biotransformation (but I don't make very many of them at all, as it's not one of my favorites- maybe one a year).

For my Pliny-ish clone, I will dryhop twice, once in primary, then in secondary (flushed with c02) or in a keg.

 

[seatazzz]

Hop creep, that is a person that buys up a bunch of a popular hops then sells them at inflated prices.

I think the proper term (at least according to YVH) is turd.