Dry hop or dump?

[Brewtallica]

After a few years of successful batches (knock on wood) I finally made one that I'm debating on dumping. Two weeks ago I made a DIPA using a grain bill that I used on a previous recipe with good results. I took a gravity sample yesterday and it tastes like straight rubbing alcohol. It smells dank like hops, but there is nothing to the taste but fusel alcohol. If I try, I can detect a little bitter from the hops and a faint hint of malt but everything is blown out by the alcohol taste. I was about to dry hop it and bottle it up in 5 days, but now I'm thinking of dumping and starting over.

Using the BIAB method, I mashed 12.5 lb 2-row, 1 lb Munich 10l, .5lb crystal 30l, and .5 lb Carapils at 154f for 60 min. Water was RO treated to the "light and hoppy" profile with 8g gypsum and 3g calcium chloride. Ph 30 min into the mash was 5.3 (tester calibrated on brew day). The hops I used were whole leaf Otto Supreme (14.1 AA) and I've never used them before. I thought I'd do a single hop DIPA with a grain bill I like and see what the hops do. I used 1 oz @60, .5@15, .5@5, then cooled to 170f and did a hop stand with 3 oz for 20 min. Oh, and .5 lb corn sugar at F.O. Gravity after the boil and additional sugar was 1.081 and collected 5.5 gal to the fermenter. I'm planning on dry hopping with 3 oz, but it might be a waste. Gravity measured yesterday was 1.014. That's about where the last batch with the same grain bill ended.

There were possibly 4 different things that were different from a previous DIPA recipe that may have ruined this batch. One, I had used omega hothead yeast in the past with no temp control with great results. For this batch I used a new pack and made a 1.5 liter starter. Maybe this batch of hothead wasn't as tolerant as the previous batch I used. Two, I usually use ice water and a submersible pump to chill my wort to well below 70. This time I just used tap and only got down to about 78-80 and pitched the yeast. I thought since I fermented hothead at those temps before that it could take it. After pitching I let the wall mounted AC unit cool the room to 72. The next day after the pitch, the power went out and shut the AC off so the room may have got into the 80s. That day the temp sticker read 82, I know it was 5-10 degrees over that internally. Three, after chilling and sanitizing I forgot to break out my timer on my phone for dosing the O2. I use a mini o2 tank and a wand with a 5 micron stainless steel stone. I turn up the gas until I see bubbles, then count down 45 seconds. I know, I need to get a flow meter to get this more precise. Well, with no timer, I just counted in my head and may have over dosed with o2. Four, I used unknown to me hops. I know that they are not the alcohol flavor culprit, but I should have made a APA or IPA first to test them out.

Thanks for reading my novel, lol. Any opinions on if I should dry hop it and see if the fusel subsides, or dump it and try again? Thanks again.

 

[IslandLizard]

Higher ferm temps lead to higher fusel alcohol production. I'm not familiar with that yeast, were you well above her recommended range? Saison yeasts can be run all the way to 80F (and above) while creating very few fusel alcohols, although most of use prefer to start in the lower range and ramp up toward the end. Is your Hothead similar to a Saison yeast?

I'd let this condition out for a week or 2 and see if it improves before spending more money on it (dry hop).
Make sure to protect the beer from air (O2) or she'll oxidize and then she'll be a sure dumper. Can you keg her?

You definitely need temp control during fermentation. Putting your fermentor in a (large) cooler or tote filled with cold water helps a lot. That water jacket keeps her cool. Add frozen bottles to the cooler to keep the temp. Cover the whole setup with a sleeping bag to keep the cold inside as much as possible.

Over-oxygenation does NOT create fusel alcohols. The disposable O2 tanks only have a simple valve and no flow meter. If you see large bubbles on the surface you're running it way too fast and wasting O2. A slight ripple is all you want, and may actually be a bit too fast already. You can use an inverted quart size beaker in a tub or bucket with water to measure flow rate, and calibrate your valve settings somewhat.

 

[Brewtallica]

The high end for Hothead is 95 and I've used it pretty hot with good results. Only this time I cooled it to 78-80 when last time I cooled it down to the 60's before pitching. So, yes it's like a saison yeast.

I'm not able to keg just yet, it's on the upgrade list for sure though

I do have a fermentation freezer that's controlled by an ink bird but I can only fit one fermenter in there and it currently has a hefeweizen in it. I've had good results with a different batch (threw the last one out because it was old) of hothead.

For oxigenating, I open it until I see the tiny bubbles come up and start the timer.

Thanks for the advise IslandLizard, I'll let it ride for a week and report back of the flavor changes.

 

[IslandLizard]

The high end for Hothead is 95 and I've used it pretty hot with good results. Only this time I cooled it to 78-80 when last time I cooled it down to the 60's before pitching. So, yes it's like a saison yeast.

I'm not able to keg just yet, it's on the upgrade list for sure though

I do have a fermentation freezer that's controlled by an ink bird but I can only fit one fermenter in there and it currently has a hefeweizen in it. I've had good results with a different batch (threw the last one out because it was old) of hothead.

For oxigenating, I open it until I see the tiny bubbles come up and start the timer.

Thanks for the advise IslandLizard, I'll let it ride for a week and report back of the flavor changes.

Is there a ton of headspace in that fermentor? Is it filled with air or still mostly CO2 from the fermentation?
If there's a lot of air on top, maybe carefully rack to a smaller secondary (carboy?) that has no headspace? Also try rousing the yeast carefully, without mixing air into the beer, so she gets resuspended and perhaps help out in the cleanup. She's one of best flocculators around, so that may be very hard to accomplish.
I'd give it 2-3 weeks at room temps to see if it mellows out a bit, it might, it's still young/green beer and of high gravity.

I read on Scott Janish' site he found an alcohol warmth, which is a sign of fusels, so that may well be part of her character.
I'd select a different yeast for next time and keep those temps under control. Aside from a dedicated ferm fridge, I still use a large cooler filled with cold water and ice bottles. It holds 2 buckets. The critical period is the first 3-6 days. Once she's 80% done she can rise freely to 72F (in the water filled cooler).

 

[Brewtallica]

It's not a ton of headspace, it's in a 7 gal ported fermonster. I don't have a smaller one to rack it to anyway. The only air introduced was when I took a gravity sample. I carefully pulled the airlock and put a paper towel soaked in StarSan over the hole. Then, I crack the spigot so I get a slow trickle into the sample cylinder. I was going to add the dry hops after taking the sample but after tasting it, I wasn't sure about wasting hops on it. I'm usually pretty good at temp control, but previous batches made with hothead lead me to belive I can let it go nuts in the heat. Fermentation was fast with it. It started bubbling after only 5 hours, and went strong for 5 days. Big Ole chunks were swimming around and it dropped very quick. Gave it another week after it dropped to be sure it was done before taking a gravity sample.

 

[IslandLizard]

OK, it will be fine as is in the Fermonster. Not much to improve by racking at this point.

The temps must have escalated at just the wrong time. If it's not improving after a week, or 2, you can always dump it or do something else with it.

 

[Brewtallica]

Copy all, thanks. I'll give it some time and see what happens. Just weird that the last batch didn't taste like rubbing alcohol. Maybe the strain mutated from the previous pack I bought.

Random question... Would you wash and re use the yeast, or toss it and buy a new pack?

 

[Iseneye]

I see no reason to keep it or try to rescue it if it tastes like rubbing alcohol.

 

[IslandLizard]

Copy all, thanks. I'll give it some time and see what happens. Just weird that the last batch didn't taste like rubbing alcohol. Maybe the strain mutated from the previous pack I bought.

Random question... Would you wash and re use the yeast, or toss it and buy a new pack?

I don't "wash" yeast, never had any success with it when I needed it the most. I just pitch the saved slurry, trub and all. If it's older than 2-3 months I make a new starter with some of it (1-2 tablespoons).
Officially it's called yeast rinsing, but 99.99% call it washing. Washing yeast is an entirely different process, using an acid. You then pitch it or build a new starter immediately.

Sure I would repitch the yeast, the saved slurry, unless I have an inkling it's contaminated, infected, or else not suitable.
I used the WY1968 ESB strain for a bunch of brews in succession, then I noticed it took longer to clear each time. If you're familiar with that yeast, it flocculates like a brick. So I bought a new pack and that fixed it.

The best is to overbuild a yeast starter, then when pitching, save some out for a next starter. You do that each time when you make a new starter.
That way it's always clean and fresh with no trub. You can keep doing that for at least 10 "generations," depending on sanitation and sometimes the strain. If you also pitch saved slurries, you can get 40-some beers out of one pack of yeast.

This hothead maybe a different b(y)east, so try it and see. Some Saison yeasts actually perform better (drier beer) after 2 or 3 fermentations. If you don't want to test on a 5 gallon batch, do a small 0.5-.75 gallon fermentation (in a gallon jug) on the side to test it out, using the same wort as what you used for your main brew, whatever it is. You may discover something...

The rubbing alcohol character definitely points to hot fermentation, but other compounds can give the beer bad tasting off flavors too. That's why I would condition it out for a couple weeks just in case. A local distillery acquired several (like 50) pallets of bad tasting beer and made yummy booze out of it.

 

[Brewtallica]

Haha, I may have to buy a still and make me some shine with this batch.

I usually over build my starter and save some unless I know I'm not going to use it for a while. This was a pretty big beer so I dumped my whole starter in instead of doing a 2nd step.

My plan to save the yeast isn't really washing it. I usually empty few mason jars of water that were sanitized and boiled onto the yeast cake and swirl it around. Then, wait until the trub and such settle and harvest the top layer through the spigot back into the sanitized mason jars.
I like the idea of doing a small batch to test it. I'll have to hunt down a gallon jug or growler ASAP.

Maybe it will do better on the second gen.

 

[IslandLizard]

Haha, I may have to buy a still and make me some shine with this batch.

I usually over build my starter and save some unless I know I'm not going to use it for a while. This was a pretty big beer so I dumped my whole starter in instead of doing a 2nd step.

My plan to save the yeast isn't really washing it. I usually empty few mason jars of water that were sanitized and boiled onto the yeast cake and swirl it around. Then, wait until the trub and such settle and harvest the top layer through the spigot back into the sanitized mason jars.
I like the idea of doing a small batch to test it. I'll have to hunt down a gallon jug or growler ASAP.

Maybe it will do better on the second gen.

Pour the yeast saved from an overbuild starter into a small mason jar and store in the fridge. It will keep well for 6 months or longer. I have yeast that's over a year old like that. Then when you want to use it for a new brew, make a new (overbuild) starter from it. If you save 50-100 billion cells out, you can create 300 billion cells easily in a 2 liter starter, even if the yeast was stored in the fridge for 3-4 months (40-50% viability).

When saving the yeast cake, it's actually better to store it under some beer, not water.* When transferring the beer to a bottling bucket or keg, leave 1-2 quarts of beer behind. Usually you can't siphon clear beer that deep down anyway even with tilting. Swirl it up, making sure the sticky yeast on the bottom gets suspended too, then pour into a large mason or pickle jar. If trub settles out in a few minutes, yeah, pour the yeasty beer mix from the top into smaller mason jars, discarding the heavy trub bottom layer on the bottom. If it doesn't separate out or well enough, swirl it up again, then distribute over as many smaller storage jars as you want.

* If you have a strong beer, say over 6-8% ABV, add some (pre-boiled) water to reduce the alcohol content. The yeast will fare better that way over longer times.

 

[Brewtallica]

Checked the gravity and it's still at 1.014. Good news, the rubbing alcohol taste has diminished a bit. I can still pick up some but it's tolerable. Went with the dry hop, 3 oz of whole leaf take up some space. Lol. The Otto Supreme hops have an interesting flavor, not very powerful as the AA would indicate, but earthy and dank. Maybe a little floral. Interested to see what the dry hop adds. I think next time I'll mix them with something like Simcoe or Centennial.

 

[madscientist451]

Don't dump it, use it as an experiment!
I'd oak it instead of dry hopping. Look in your local grocery store for Jack Daniel's brand barrel chips used for smoking meat. I'd use about 1 oz per gallon of beer. Soak the chips in a good bourbon for 2-3 days to sanitize them and then rack the beer on to the chips in secondary. Save the bourbon used to sanitize the chips, you can add it to the beer at packaging to bump up the bourbon flavor.
Pull a sample every 4-5 days and see how its coming along. Its easy to over oak so don't forget about it.
Keep in mind when you are tasting it that the hot alcohol note and your hop bitterness will change over time.
Depending what size secondary vessels you have, you may want to reserve a portion of the beer that will remain un-oaked so you can blend it back if you over do it. But that's kind of a hassle, I'd just wing it.
Bottle it and let it age for a while. With the high ABV and lots of hops, your beer can age for a long time.

 

[Brewtallica]

Well, too late on the not dry hopping part. But, I can still oak it . I'm smoking some ribs tomorrow and might toast some extra chips to oak it. I have some oak spirals too. Or, smoke the spirals for a bit on the grill and then toss them in the fermenter. Hmm, the possibilities...

 

[Brewtallica]

Update, after dry hopping for 4 days with 3 oz of whole leaf I think I picked up a vegital off flavor. It's pretty potent on the back end. I carefully removed the hop bag today and it's cold crashing now in the fermentation freezer at 34 degrees. I think it's due to the hops I used. I belive the place that I ordered them from sent me some old ones. Now that I'm thinking about it, on brew day my wife said the smelled like feet. I ignored it and used them anyway. When I pulled the dry hop bag they definitely smelled a little funky. Maybe feet and cheese with the typical hop dank. I always check the hop bags once I get them and re vacuum seal them if needed. Then I place them in a zip lock bag for double measure so I know it's not how I store them. Kind of pissed at the place I bought them from because they also sold me a pack of Wyeast ESB that was 7 months old. Just because of that I'm thinking the sold me some very old hops too. I wrote them about it and of course no response.

 

[IslandLizard]

Update, after dry hopping for 4 days with 3 oz of whole leaf I think I picked up a vegital off flavor. It's pretty potent on the back end. I carefully removed the hop bag today and it's cold crashing now in the fermentation freezer at 34 degrees. I think it's due to the hops I used. I belive the place that I ordered them from sent me some old ones. Now that I'm thinking about it, on brew day my wife said the smelled like feet. I ignored it and used them anyway. When I pulled the dry hop bag they definitely smelled a little funky. Maybe feet and cheese with the typical hop dank. I always check the hop bags once I get them and re vacuum seal them if needed. Then I place them in a zip lock bag for double measure so I know it's not how I store them. Kind of pissed at the place I bought them from because they also sold me a pack of Wyeast ESB that was 7 months old. Just because of that I'm thinking the sold me some very old hops too. I wrote them about it and of course no response.

<ugh> That's very disappointing! Some of the cheesiness may wear off, or gets masked by other aromas. Keep your fingers crossed. Whole leaf is much harder to keep fresh, and there's not one LHBS I've been at that freezes their hops that on display. They only refrigerate them. Who knows how your source mistreated them, many break bulk, and who knows how old they are. Time to look for a new vendor!

I think you'll make sure to smell them before adding, next time. In my early days I kept some left over pellets in my brewing sundries box, and recognize that cheesy scent from across the room now.

What hop variety did you use? Some smell very dank when wet. Hope it turns for the better!

 

[Brewtallica]

The hops are Otto Supreme. Definitely not getting much of the flavors in their description. They smell like old socks mixed with the typical hop dankness. I never before judged the smell of hops before using them because they usually taste a lot different when used. Hmm, maybe I can name the beer off flavor supreme. Lol. Well, I have a half pound of them left that I'm not sure what to do with. I guess I can still bitter with them but, I'm thinking the trash may be the best place for them. It sucks because the vendor had some decent deals on hops and they didn't charge a ton in shipping. I live outside CONUS and don't have a LHBS so I usually order in bulk and it's hard to find a vendor that doesn't kill in shipping.

 

[hunter306]

I'm on the verge on tossing out my second batch ever in over 300 gal, if you've got a system that has consistently produced good quality beer and you've gotten a lemon... I'm not on the same train as most. Dump it, do something you know worked and get back to making good beer.

Don't try to salvage an obviously bad batch, every good brewery knows when to toss a batch that has gone completely sideways.

Better luck next time. Toss the hops that are the problem too, or chase a refund. Cheers!

Here's a fun trip, me dumping my first batch and feeling bad about it =)

 

[Brewtallica]

Man, hunter306, sorry for your loss. I'm going to see what it does in bottles after a few weeks, but most likely I'll be dumping it. I bought some other whole leaf hops from this vendor, I hope those are not bad too.

 

[SanPancho]

Hornidal kviek pitched at 95, got itself up to 108. No fusels. Different strain vs hothead but basically the same. Doesnt seem like you would have gotten fusels that low.

 

[Brewtallica]

SanPancho, I used a previous pack for 3 generations of beers that turned out amazing. All were fermented in the 80s with no fusel taste. I was thinking I may have got a different strain than the first pack I used. Btw, where did you get hornidal and how did the yeast character taste at that temp?

 

[stodds]

Yeast does a great job cleaning up after itself. Don't be so sure you'll end up dumping it.

 

[SanPancho]

omega. was lightly fruity, bit of citrus. of course we hopped it pretty heavily so that may have been the hops. in short, no off flavors. just fruit and citrus in the beer. either from hops or yeast.