Drunken Farmer Imperial Saison-bulk age ?

[NGD]

Allowed myself to get suckered by Midwest Brewing's marketing team and grabbed a few extract kits. Had two questions regarding this brew.

First:
This saison looks like it'll be a blast and has great reviews but the original ad's for the kit said it should be aged for at least 10 months. Looking on the recipe sheet it says 10 weeks.
2-4 weeks primary
4 weeks minimum secondary with a dry hop 1-2 weeks before packaging

I use buckets and worry about oxidation issues with leaving to bulk age for so long. My buckets are all 7.5 gallon and have a considerable amount of head room. I'm not sure what is an "appropriate" amount of time before this becomes an issue. If I do a secondary or even take a gravity reading, I usually flush with C02 afterwards. No idea if this helps prevent oxidation, but figured it would minimize the time exposed to 02. I'd like to leave it in the secondary for several months but I'm think it might be better to bottle condition to minimize exposure.

Second:
Looking for recommendations on yeast for this batch. I don't have a stir plate for a starter so I usually buy extra yeast unless I'm using something from Omega. Haven't brewed a batch this high in ABV for awhile though. I've been interested in Sigmunds Voss Kveik yeast from Yeast Bay for awhile as it appears I wouldn't even have to tie up my mini fridge. However any suggestions and comments would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

 

[IslandLizard]

Is this being aged on wood or so? I can't see why a common Saison needs 10 months or even 10 weeks of aging. OK, many "real" Saisons do get better with time.

• Buckets are no good for long term aging, although conceivably you could fill them to the very top and snap a lid on them to minimize headspace, the plastic itself is quite porous, and many lids don't seal well enough.
• Glass carboys are much better suited, but there's always the risk of injury when handling glass.
• Now kegs are ideal! Take up little space, can be purged with CO2, and provided with an airlock or spunding valve.

Omega pitches are 150 cells when fresh, so a 2 liter starter in a gallon glass jug will get you plenty of cell with some to spare for a next batch. Just shake it up when you walk by. I urge the use of a gallon jug instead of a 2 liter flask because of excessive foaming with the non stirred method. You don't want to lose half the yeast to the counter overnight because of too little headspace. Not only do you save money with making starters, and saving some out for next starters (yeast ranching), it guarantees your yeast is viable and vital.

Most Saison yeasts can be used at relatively high temps, which brings out most of their character. I still like to start them out a little lower and let rise slowly for the first 30% of fermentation or so before I start heating them. But there are reports of using those yeasts at 90F+ from the get go with most excellent results.

 

[NGD]

Is this being aged on wood or so? I can't see why a common Saison needs 10 months or even 10 weeks of aging. OK, many "real" Saisons do get better with time.

• Buckets are no good for long term aging, although conceivably you could fill them to the very top and snap a lid on them to minimize headspace, the plastic itself is quite porous, and many lids don't seal well enough.
• Glass carboys are much better suited, but there's always the risk of injury when handling glass.
• Now kegs are ideal! Take up little space, can be purged with CO2, and provided with an airlock or spunding valve.

Omega pitches are 150 cells when fresh, so a 2 liter starter in a gallon glass jug will get you plenty of cell with some to spare for a next batch. Just shake it up when you walk by. I urge the use of a gallon jug instead of a 2 liter flask because of excessive foaming with the non stirred method. You don't want to lose half the yeast to the counter overnight because of too little headspace. Not only do you save money with making starters, and saving some out for next starters (yeast ranching), it guarantees your yeast is viable and vital.

Most Saison yeasts can be used at relatively high temps, which brings out most of their character. I still like to start them out a little lower and let rise slowly for the first 30% of fermentation or so before I start heating them. But there are reports of using those yeasts at 90F+ from the get go with most excellent results.

I had thought about throwing some oak in the secondary. Since this recipe calls for 7oz of hops I figured it would be better to do a secondary fermentation with this batch and get it off the trub.

While I'm certainly not opposed to buying a erlenmeyer flask, I had never though of using a gallon jug. I'm tempted to give that a shot.
Thanks!

 

[IslandLizard]

I had thought about throwing some oak in the secondary. Since this recipe calls for 7oz of hops I figured it would be better to do a secondary fermentation with this batch and get it off the trub.

While I'm certainly not opposed to buying a erlenmeyer flask, I had never though of using a gallon jug. I'm tempted to give that a shot.
Thanks!

How long are you going to leave the wood in the fermentor? Even with some chips or cubes it only takes 2-3 weeks or less, especially if you soak them in liquor (vodka, whiskey, bourbon, rum) for a week or 2 while you're fermenting. They can be added to your primary vessel, without a problem. Only when aging for longer than 2-3 months it is advisable to move the beer off the yeast for chance of autolysis.

Since you're not adding more fermentables (e.g., sugar syrups, fruit) there is NO secondary fermentation. A real secondary fermentation helps remove any oxygen that made it into the beer during the transfer to the secondary vessel, and thus, prevent possible oxidation later.

7 oz of hops in a 5 gallon batch of Saison? When are you going to add those? Are they a dry hop charge? If so, they're fine to be added to the primary too, and preferably no longer than 5-7 days before packaging to bottle most of the aroma and flavor.

I want to discourage you from using a secondary, unless you know how to rack without introducing (excessive) air (oxygen) into the beer and have a suitable secondary vessel that can be filled to the very top leaving very small headspace. Or can be flushed or purged with CO2.

 

[IslandLizard]

Re: Your yeast

Gallon jugs have convex bottoms, which are fine on the counter using intermittent agitation. If you buy or build a stir plate, you almost need to use a flat bottomed vessel (erlenmeyer flask) or the bar will be thrown. On a stir plate you'll grow yeast faster and in larger quantity than on the counter.

Check a yeast pitch calculator for the difference, such as Mr. Malty, YeastCalc or HomebrewDad/BrewUnited.

Also do a search for "Shaken not Stirred" yeast starters, a different approach not requiring a stir plate.

 

[NGD]

How long are you going to leave the wood in the fermentor? Even with some chips or cubes it only takes 2-3 weeks or less, especially if you soak them in liquor (vodka, whiskey, bourbon, rum) for a week or 2 while you're fermenting. They can be added to your primary vessel, without a problem. Only when aging for longer than 2-3 months it is advisable to move the beer off the yeast for chance of autolysis.

Since you're not adding more fermentables (e.g., sugar syrups, fruit) there is NO secondary fermentation. A real secondary fermentation helps remove any oxygen that made it into the beer during the transfer to the secondary vessel, and thus, prevent possible oxidation later.

7 oz of hops in a 5 gallon batch of Saison? When are you going to add those? Are they a dry hop charge? If so, they're fine to be added to the primary too, and preferably no longer than 5-7 days before packaging to bottle most of the aroma and flavor.

I want to discourage you from using a secondary, unless you know how to rack without introducing (excessive) air (oxygen) into the beer and have a suitable secondary vessel that can be filled to the very top leaving very small headspace. Or can be flushed or purged with CO2.

Since this is an imperial saison (estimated OG 1.088), I'm assuming the hop schedule is to offset the large amount of sweetness. Seems a bit over the top to me, but I generally don't do high ABV batches. Heres a quick breakdown of the hop schedule.

Hop Boil Schedule
60 1oz Nelson Sauvin
45 1oz French Aramis
30 0.5oz Strisselspalt
15 0.5oz Strisselspalt
5 1oz French Aramis
5 1oz Nelson Sauvin

Personally I'd prefer not to secondary nor do I usually. I do happen to have a few oz of vacuum sealed oak cubes that have been sitting on bourbon for a year that I've been thinking about tossing in 2oz maybe about the time I dry hop. The recipe calls for a 2oz dry hop 1-2 weeks prior to packaging. At this point all I have are buckets for fermenting. I'm not crazy about glass seeing as I live in a multi story house and my fermentation chamber is upstairs.

Re: Your yeast

Gallon jugs have convex bottoms, which are fine on the counter using intermittent agitation. If you buy or build a stir plate, you almost need to use a flat bottomed vessel (erlenmeyer flask) or the bar will be thrown. On a stir plate you'll grow yeast faster and in larger quantity than on the counter.

Check a yeast pitch calculator for the difference, such as Mr. Malty, YeastCalc or HomebrewDad/BrewUnited.

Also do a search for "Shaken not Stirred" yeast starters, a different approach not requiring a stir plate.

Thanks for the heads up with these links. I'll read up. Looks like it's time I pulled on my big boy brewing britches and got busy with making starters. I've attached the kit instructions for clarity. While I don't usually follow the instructions to the letter (I to do late additions of malt) I"m wondering if I should follow these a little more closely.

If anyone has suggestions for a good saison yeast thats capable of 11%abv I'm all ears. I've read several descriptions on many varieties but I prefer first hand experience rather than marketing jargon.

 

[IslandLizard]

So they grabbed all the Nelson so we can't get anymore... Greedy B@stards!

That's a good load of hops. I've never used any of those before. Interesting!
A Saison is all about the yeast, so she should shine there. But that looks like a nice set of hops, so I'd roll with all of them.
Now, it's a bit of a waste to boil Nelson for 60'... If it were me, because they're impossible to get, I would move those 2 Nelsons to much later, like a whirlpool. And use the Aramis for bittering instead, matching the IBUs though.

That's surely an interesting yeast. Go for it and let her get hot. I have an old fridge with a small space heater in it, I use for Saisons.
It's a single strain, so you can make a nice starter and also save some out for a next batch. Not sure how well she behaves when stressed (slightly underpitched), but you definitely need a starter from those small old WLP tubes for this Imperial sized beer.