Double Pitching...

[HOP-HEAD]

Was looking at ordering a kit with an OG over 1.060, (Victory Hop Devil from AHS) and the website recommended double pitching on the yeast. Can someone summarize the ups and possible downs to this? I understand the reduced lag time and help with eliminating stuck fermentations, but at $6.49 a pack, I'm curious how necessary it is... because ultimately, I'm cheap.

 

[twig]

You could make a starter, then you get more yeast for the same money.

 

[shertz]

Do a starter. Save yourself the money. If you don't double pitch or do a starter, you'll run the risk of low attenuation and a sweeter beer. Go to Mr. Malty and learn proper pitching rates.

 

[Pelikan]

Unless you have a stir plate, double pitching is better and cheaper when compared to starting a starter (as you inevitably have to buy the flask, etc etc). I'm assuming you're talking activator packs or vials. When you want to direct-pitch, dry yeast is always better and more economical, unless you stack up on activators and vials (probably about $20 in your case, compared to less than $5 for dry yeast).

For what it's worth, it's probably cheaper to look up recipes and put together your own IPA. The homebrew stores generally charge more for the kit than the sum of its parts.

 

[carnevoodoo]

For liquid yeast, I always make a starter. If I'm using something that just needs a clean yeast, I've been using safale-05 more. Two packets of that is more than enough and only about 4 bucks total.

 

[HOP-HEAD]

your own IPA. The homebrew stores generally charge more for the kit than the sum of its parts.

That's ultimately my intent, but I love Victory's Hop Devil IPA, and was hoping to take some of the trial and error out of matching their recipe by buying AHS's replica kit. Then I can see what they use, and just buy ingredients in the future.

Unless somebody has a really good IPA recipe they want to share...

 

[HOP-HEAD]

When you want to direct-pitch, dry yeast is always better and more economical, unless you stack up on activators and vials (probably about $20 in your case, compared to less than $5 for dry yeast).

I was always lead to believe the liquid yeast was better... though I have always used dry to this point. So two packs of dry is just as good as two packs of the recommended liquid?

Their recommendations are:

Wyeast Labs East Coast Ale WLP008
or the cheaper, Danstar Nottingham Dry... your recommendations?

 

[carnevoodoo]

I was always lead to believe the liquid yeast was better... though I have always used dry to this point. So two packs of dry is just as good as the recommended liquid?

Their recommendations are:

Wyeast Labs East Coast Ale WLP008
or the cheaper, Danstar Nottingham Dry... your recommendations?

Go for two packs of Notty. It is a great yeast.

Liquid yeast is more versatile. There are a lot of styles you just can't make with dry yeast. But for your everyday clean beers, the dry yeast is just fine (and in some cases identical)

 

[sirsloop]

You're wasting your money with liquid yeast and that beer I think. You're just going to want a clean finishing yeast, aka, Nottinghams. Do you need to double pitch it? Hell no... not on a 1.060 brew...

 

[APendejo]

Yep, two paks of Nottingham. One for the brew your making now and one for the next batch.
AP

 

[carnevoodoo]

You're wasting your money with liquid yeast and that beer I think. You're just going to want a clean finishing yeast, aka, Nottinghams. Do you need to double pitch it? Hell no... not on a 1.060 brew...

Oops. Notty is packed 11 grams at a time, huh? Yeah. One packet is enough for 1.060. Anything higher and I'd pitch two.

 

[Pelikan]

The thing with dry yeast vs. liquid yeast is this: dry yeast has few available strains, but an 11 gram packet of dry yeast has the cell counts you're looking for without the need for a starter or double pitching. Liquid yeast has more variety and a number of exotics, but require a proper starter (2 liter plus stir plate).

Grab the Safale US-05. Or, if you want higher flocculation (ie: clearer brew without filtration) roll with the Nottingham.

 

[Zymurgrafi]

Unless you have a stir plate, double pitching is better and cheaper when compared to starting a starter (as you inevitably have to buy the flask, etc etc).

BAH!

You can make a starter just fine without a stirplate, flask, etc. etc.! All you need is some dme, your yeast, a small pot to boil the wort and a jar to ferment. MUCH cheaper than buying 2 vials/packs of yeast and MORE effective!


here, Mr. Palmer , you explain will ya...

 

[json2001]

Liquid yeast has more variety and a number of exotics, but require a proper starter (2 liter plus stir plate).

Grab the Safale US-05. Or, if you want higher flocculation (ie: clearer brew without filtration) roll with the Nottingham.

huh, really? I have been using White Labs Liquid Yeast without a starter for the past few batches. Just been shaking the tube and dumping it. Fermentation usually takes off within the day. And the beers have fermented down to the expected FGs. Am I missing something?

 

[shertz]

huh, really? I have been using White Labs Liquid Yeast without a starter for the past few batches. Just been shaking the tube and dumping it. Fermentation usually takes off within the day. And the beers have fermented down to the expected FGs. Am I missing something?

If your doing a lager or bigger brew(1.080 +), you'll never attenuate with one vial, trust me. You'll have a nice, SWEET brew.

 

[Pelikan]

BAH!

You can make a starter just fine without a stirplate, flask, etc. etc.! All you need is some dme, your yeast, a small pot to boil the wort and a jar to ferment. MUCH cheaper than buying 2 vials/packs of yeast and MORE effective!

here, Mr. Palmer , you explain will ya...

Check out this article. The best you can hope for with a standard 1-liter starter and manual shaking is about 60 billion cells. The bare minimum for an ale is about 120 billion cells (close to 200 billion for OG over 1.050), so a 2 liter starter, shaken, might just get you there.

A 1-liter starter on a stir plate should do just fine for arriving at over 200 billion cells.

I agree that a standard, shaken starter is better than pitching two or so packs of liquid yeast, but it doesn't come close to an 11 gram packet of dry
(about 275 billion cells), or a 1-liter starter on a stir plate (about 250 billion cells). I personally like the choice afforded by liquid yeast, and I like messing around with gizmos such as stir plates and starters and all that. But dry yeast cannot be beat for simplicity, and one of my favorite overall strains (Whitbread) is available dry (Safale S-04).

With regards to direct pitching single packs of Wyeast or White Labs: don't do it. Yes, I've done it before, had a quick start to fermentation, and got fairly close to my target gravity. But it's not as simple as that. The yeast tends to produce more esters when underpitched, are less healthy, generally do not attenuate fully...etc etc etc. Most importantly, underpitching opens up a window for contamination that otherwise would not exist. Pitching single packs of liquid is a bad habit to get into, in other words.

 

[json2001]

If your doing a lager or bigger brew(1.080 +), you'll never attenuate with one vial, trust me. You'll have a nice, SWEET brew.

Oh Ok. So for beers in the 1.052ish range it should be fine?

 

[Pelikan]

Oh Ok. So for beers in the 1.052ish range it should be fine?

With White Labs, you're getting maybe 50-60 billion active, healthy cells on a good day (comparable to the volume you'd get with a standard, 1-liter shaken starter, as they say on their site). A Wyeast activator is even worse, with perhaps 10-20 billion active, healthy cells in a 125ml XL activator, despite what they advertise on the front of the packet.

So under the best circumstances, with the best White Labs vial, you're still under-pitching by a factor of two. With the best Wyeast activator, you're under-pitching by a factor of about five -- again, on a good day.

So if you really want to direct-pitch liquid yeast, two vials of White Labs are about the bare minimum for beers between 1.040 and 1.060, more like three if you want to really ensure you're pitching at proper rates. Above 1.060 and three, even four vials are mandated. Direct pitching Wyeast is unadvised , unless you're looking to drop some serious dime on activators.

That said, I prefer Wyeast activators for starting starters, because they're only 125 ml, and don't offset the starter solution by too much (whereas a White Labs vial would more or less make up half of a 1 liter starter).