Does this altered water profile for a SNPA clone look OK?

[brewkinger]

I am making a SNPA clone this weekend, and at the suggestion of my LHBS, I opted to manipulate the water chemistry for this brew.

My base profile is attached:

Using the nomograph in the back of HTB, I figured on roughly 240ppm of Ca

My first plan of action was to use 26.4 grams of GYPSUM (divided correctly between mash and sparge water volumes)
This resulted in the following final amounts in the water:
Ca: 240.6
SO4: 458
HCO3: 197

Obviously, the sulfate amount got my attention as probably TOO HIGH
and the bicarb level seemed high (but it is my base water)

So, I option #2 was to use GYPSUM and CaCl to get to the amounts and that resulted in:
Ca: 238.1
SO4: 181.6
Cl: 211.4
(and of course the baseline 197 HCO3 again)

Which option is better?
(I am leaning towards #2 because it seems more balanced; SPECIFICALLY the sulfate level.)

View attachment Water1.pdf

 

[bob1852]

Neither of those profiles are very good in my opinion.


Way too much sulfate on the first and way too much sulfate and chloride on the second. Not to mention the calcium is pretty high too.

I'd shoot for Randy Mosher and Tasty McDole's pale ale profile.

Off the top of my head it is ~165 Ca, ~300 CaSO4, and ~50 CaCl.

And use acid malt, lactic acid, or phosphoric acid to knock down some alkalinity and get your pH where needed.

 

[Yooper]

Way too much calcium, and way too much sulfate and chloride!

No matter what, keep the chloride under 100 ppm and preferably less when the sulfate level is high.

I like a lower level of sulfate than some people, but some people like beers with up to 250-300 ppm of sulfate. Keep the chloride minimal if you go that high, to avoid a minerally flavor in the finished beer.

Check out a spreadsheet (I like bru'nwater or brewer's friend, both free online) to see what your mash pH will be. You want the mash pH around 5.4 for an APA.

 

[brewkinger]

So now I am more confused because the nomograph in the back of how to brew guides me to a Ca value of 240 for a lighter beer based on my water profile.
So why are my Ca levels too high?


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[Yooper]

So now I am more confused because the nomograph in the back of how to brew guides me to a Ca value of 240 for a lighter beer based on my water profile.
So why are my Ca levels too high?


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I don't know. I do know that the book is terribly dated (John is the first to tell you that!) and while calcium is good for yeast health, 50 ppm is more than adequate.

Instead of a nomograph, which relies on color I believe, use a brewing water spreadsheet to make sure your pH is 5.4-5.5 and then use brewing salts as needed for flavor.

 

[Yooper]

By the way, looking at your water profile shows a lot of alkalinity.

You may find that the only way to successfully brew a light colored beer is by cutting it 50/50 with RO water as well as use some acid in the sparge and mash water.

You can't "erase" alkalinity by overloading on the calcium, which it looks as if the nomograph seems to encourage you to do.

 

[brewkinger]

Besides the dilution possibility, would boiling my water prior to use work?
If so, is there a defined percentage decrease in alkalinity achieved from this?


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[Yooper]

I'm no expert on water chemistry- so maybe let some of those who are weigh in on that, but there are a couple of things to try to reduce the alkalinity without dilution.

One is lime softening, which works pretty well. It didn't work that great for me, simply because I didn't have the space for the water I needed to treat (I do 10 gallon batches). I had 10 gallon coolers of water all over my laundry room- and then I had to LIFT them. Ugh. But for those properly set up (a big food safe vessel or trash can with a ball valve for example), it can work great. http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Alkalinity_reduction_with_slaked_lime

Boiling does work as well, but I have no experience with that!

 

[brewkinger]

Thank you for the help with this matter.

I had tried using Bru'n water before and got overwhelmed pretty easily and gave up.
BUT...

I took a peek at Brewers Friend and messed around with the basic calculator and then jumped over to the advanced calculator and here is what I have now:

Adding roughly 1tsp of lactic acid to the mash water, comnbined with the grist bill to get a mash pH of 5.4

Then addition of gypsum, salt and CaCl to get

Ca: 97.3
Mg: 10
Na: 30
Cl: 71
SO4: 93

I get all green stars at the bottom with a balanced ratio of Cl / SO4 of 1.3

Looks like I have my water profile for this recipe, unless someone sees something that I am missing.

Thanks again everyone~:rockin:

 

[thefost]

If you're trying to get the snpa crisp bitterness, I don't think you're going to get it with that water profile.

I tried making some SNPA recently weith a similar profile. Was not thrilled with the outcome, although adding some more gypsum afterwards helped a bit. From my research and testing, I would be looking to get your sulfate higher (like 140 or more). It wouldnt hurt to get your calcium lower (like 50-60) if you can but not as important as getting your sulfate up. You could add some epsom salt to get a little more sulfate, and maybe some more gypsum. Also probably want to mash closer to pH of 5.3, my research has led me to the conclusion thats what SN does. Thats what I'll be doing on my next SNPA clone attempt real soon. You're definitely not looking for a "balanced" profile, you want a bitter profile for pale ale.

Thank you for the help with this matter.

I had tried using Bru'n water before and got overwhelmed pretty easily and gave up.
BUT...

I took a peek at Brewers Friend and messed around with the basic calculator and then jumped over to the advanced calculator and here is what I have now:

Adding roughly 1tsp of lactic acid to the mash water, comnbined with the grist bill to get a mash pH of 5.4

Then addition of gypsum, salt and CaCl to get

Ca: 97.3
Mg: 10
Na: 30
Cl: 71
SO4: 93

I get all green stars at the bottom with a balanced ratio of Cl / SO4 of 1.3

Looks like I have my water profile for this recipe, unless someone sees something that I am missing.

Thanks again everyone~:rockin:

 

[KIAKillerXJ]

Bru'n suggest this for a Pale Ale Profile I've used successfully, and Martin does suggest 5.4ph for a pale ale.

Ca 140
Mg 18
Na 25
Sulfate 300
Chloride 55
Bicarb 110

 

[Yooper]

Thank you for the help with this matter.

I had tried using Bru'n water before and got overwhelmed pretty easily and gave up.
BUT...

I took a peek at Brewers Friend and messed around with the basic calculator and then jumped over to the advanced calculator and here is what I have now:

Adding roughly 1tsp of lactic acid to the mash water, comnbined with the grist bill to get a mash pH of 5.4

Then addition of gypsum, salt and CaCl to get

Ca: 97.3
Mg: 10
Na: 30
Cl: 71
SO4: 93

I get all green stars at the bottom with a balanced ratio of Cl / SO4 of 1.3

Looks like I have my water profile for this recipe, unless someone sees something that I am missing.

Thanks again everyone~:rockin:

The chloride and sodium and definitely higher than need be. Can you run it again, without the NaCl2 (salt), and maybe add a bit more gypsum and see what kind of numbers you get. The Na is immaterial in this profile, and the chloride is probably better at under 50 ppm since you're going higher on the sulfate. Ignore the chloride:sulfate ratio- it's not a good gauge. For example, a beer with chloride of 50 and sulfate of 100 will have a 1:2 ratio. But a beer with chloride of 200 and sulfate of 400 will also- and believe me you won't want that in your brewing water! It's more about the total amount, rather than the ratio even though some calculators have you believe differently.

5.4 is a perfect pH, so that's great!

Don't forget to use acid in your sparge water (bru'nwater has a good sparge water acidification calculator, but brewer's friend might as well), as a common cause of off-flavors is a too-high sparge pH.

 

[brewkinger]

The chloride and sodium and definitely higher than need be. Can you run it again, without the NaCl2 (salt), and maybe add a bit more gypsum and see what kind of numbers you get. The Na is immaterial in this profile, and the chloride is probably better at under 50 ppm since you're going higher on the sulfate. Ignore the chloride:sulfate ratio- it's not a good gauge. For example, a beer with chloride of 50 and sulfate of 100 will have a 1:2 ratio. But a beer with chloride of 200 and sulfate of 400 will also- and believe me you won't want that in your brewing water! It's more about the total amount, rather than the ratio even though some calculators have you believe differently.

5.4 is a perfect pH, so that's great!

Don't forget to use acid in your sparge water (bru'nwater has a good sparge water acidification calculator, but brewer's friend might as well), as a common cause of off-flavors is a too-high sparge pH.

OK, so I made the adjustments, dropped the NaCl altogether and bumped up gypsum to give:
Ca: 111.6
Mg: 10
Na: 6
Cl: 33.6
SO4: 126.7

This gives the SO4:Cl ratio up to 3.8 (more bitter)

Does this look better? Any addition of gypsum bumps that ratio up and the description becomes (too bitter)

An addition of some more CaCl and gypsum (and dropped NaClfrom the initial profile) gives:
Ca 112.8
Mg 10
Na 6
Cl: 48.4
SO4 109.6

ratio of 2.3 (more bitter)

 

[mabrungard]

Oh no, sodium is OK in that profile. There is no NEED to reduce it, but there is no real need to increase it either. Sodium would clash with the sulfate if you bring the sodium level very high. But at 25 to 30 ppm, its not a worry.

If this water is intended for a pale ale, the very modest SO4 level of around 100 ppm is going to be uninspiring. The minimum I recommend is on the order of 150 ppm and I prefer 300ppm in my pales.

 

[brewkinger]

Martin:

Which profile are you referring to?
Lol
I had one I thought was ok and then tweaked it a couple of times.


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[mabrungard]

I was referring to the Pale Ale profile in Bru'n Water with its relatively low Na and Cl and high Ca and SO4.

 

[brewkinger]

I was referring to the Pale Ale profile in Bru'n Water with its relatively low Na and Cl and high Ca and SO4.

OK then.... since I hopefully still have the attention of the water God(s)

I went back and work with chemistry one more time with the intention of bringing it "in line" with the Bru'n profile

Treated my base water with slaked lime and chalk (to bring alkalinity DOWN)
Treated base water with acid to bring mash pH into 5.4 range

Added gypsum, salt and more slaked lime to mash

Which resulted in the following 2 variations:

#1:
Ca 75
Mg 10
Na 29
Cl 40
SO4 182

#2
Ca 111
Mg 10
Na 29
Cl 40
SO4 215

Both will work, but which is more suited for SNPA clone?

 

[thefost]

Ok so I quickly plugged your numbers into Bru'n Water (you have good water, I'm jealous ). Here's what I would do, add 1.5gm/gal gypsum, .46 gm/gal epsom salt, .14 gm/gal calcium chloride, .2 gm/gal salt.

This gets you

154ppm CA
22 ppm Mg
27 ppm NA
275 ppm Sulfate
54 ppm Cl

This gets you very close to the Bru'n water pale ale profile. And then add your acid of choice to bring the mash pH down to the correct level.

 

[brewkinger]

Ok so I quickly plugged your numbers into Bru'n Water (you have good water, I'm jealous ). Here's what I would do, add 1.5gm/gal gypsum, .46 gm/gal epsom salt, .14 gm/gal calcium chloride, .2 gm/gal salt.

This gets you

154ppm CA
22 ppm Mg
27 ppm NA
275 ppm Sulfate
54 ppm Cl

This gets you very close to the Bru'n water pale ale profile. And then add your acid of choice to bring the mash pH down to the correct level.

Where does the alkalinity (HCO3) stand with that profile in Bru'n water?

EDIT: Never mind, I put on my big boy pants and went to Bru'n water and plugged it all in myself and learned how to use that program as well.

Thanks everyone...

 

[Yooper]

OK then.... since I hopefully still have the attention of the water God(s)

I went back and work with chemistry one more time with the intention of bringing it "in line" with the Bru'n profile

Treated my base water with slaked lime and chalk (to bring alkalinity DOWN)
Treated base water with acid to bring mash pH into 5.4 range

Added gypsum, salt and more slaked lime to mash

Which resulted in the following 2 variations:

#1:
Ca 75
Mg 10
Na 29
Cl 40
SO4 182

#2
Ca 111
Mg 10
Na 29
Cl 40
SO4 215

Both will work, but which is more suited for SNPA clone?

I don't understand. You added lime to your mashing water? That increases pH, and then you're adding acid to bring it down?

Never add lime to your mash, and then add acid to bring it down- they counteract each other! Adding alkalinity to a mash is rare, and might be needed if you were using RO water and making something like a stout. You definitely don't want to use both acid and base in the same mash.

 

[brewkinger]

I don't understand. You added lime to your mashing water? That increases pH, and then you're adding acid to bring it down?

Never add lime to your mash, and then add acid to bring it down- they counteract each other! Adding alkalinity to a mash is rare, and might be needed if you were using RO water and making something like a stout. You definitely don't want to use both acid and base in the same mash.

To be honest, when i was using brewers friend, i added the lime to pretreat the water and allow some of the alkanity to precipitate as CaCO3.
It worked and then I noticed that it could be added to the mash as well, so I experimented to see what it would do to the chemistry.
It did nothing harmful and continued to lower the alkalinity as well, so I went with it.

Take a look at Bru'n water WATER ADJUSTMENT page.
Not only does it allow you to add slaked lime, but ANY addition of slaked lime in Bru'n water shows up as an addition to the mash.

When I did it in brewers friend, it did not seem to change anything drastic other than help bring the alkalinity down from the 160 range to the 100 range, which is why I even did it in the first place.

This is the reason that I have (as I am sure that many others have) hesitated getting into water chemistry. It seems that any addition of one substance to achieve a desired result ALSO has a negative effect. This negative effect is countered with a different chemical which fixes that problem and creates a new one. It seems like I am forever chasing my tail.

On a positive note, I was able to achieve the profile that i was looking for using Bru'n water with NO lime additions. Just base profile and some basic salts and acid to corral the pH down to 5.4 as suggested.

Looks like Bru'n water to the rescue after all.

 

[brewkinger]

OK...so now that I have completed my crash course and re-remembering that chemistry education that I possess, I am more clear on the chemistry issue.

I am not sure what I was doing right or wrong, but the combination of Brewers Friend and Bru'n water guided me to the light at the end of the tunnel.

I followed the recommendations of Bru'n and added salts and acid to my mash and sparge waters and made the batch of SNPA.

The actual brewing of that beer is a whole other story which I guarantee nothing except we made about 6 gallons of sugar water and pitched a very healthy yeast colony to it.

I think that the 3 foot fall that the refractometer took from the table to the ground may have altered the final readings slightly, so I have no idea about OG. I think that I may have to buy another refractometer.

Thoughts from the more knowledgable out there? I did not attempt a recalibration, due to an 8 hour brew day and clean up.
At that point, I just did not care.

Can it be saved or are those things that fragile?